We need to stop trading up for now

JD_KaPow

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As others have said: you need to evaluate the process, not the specific outcomes.

In general, the way to draft good players is to draft lots of players. That doesn't mean you should never trade up, but you'd better get really good value on the trade before you do it.

For me, a good process has the following characteristics:
  • Build a board you as an organization believe in. (This requires understanding the types of players are a fit for what you're trying to do).
  • Stay disciplined during the draft.
  • Never reach for need.
  • Trade up only when your board dictates: you must be getting excellent value.
  • Trade down when your board dictates or when you get overwhelming value.
Based on these principles, I was actually pretty happy with Dallas's process there for a while, but the last few years haven't been good.

2014: the trade up to get Lawrence was awful process-wise. Poor value on the trade, giving up a pick, reaching for need.
2013: the trade down was bad, process-wise. They didn't build a board the organization believed in. They certainly made the best of the picks they got in the trade, but that's independent of the initial decision.
2012: I thought the trade up for Claiborne was good process at the time: they got good value on the trade and their board dictated that the trade was worth it. What they didn't do was visit with Claiborne in advance; that's probably an important process piece.
2010: I think both trades up reflected good process. Dez and Lee were all alone at the top of their board, and the cost to move wasn't exorbitant.
2009: the Cowboys didn't draft this year, and nobody can convince me otherwise.
2008: the Roy Williams trade was just about the definition of terrible process. Giving up valuable picks, reaching for need. Ugh.
2007: I thought the trade down with Cleveland was great process and got them great value (Cleveland's surprising success that year reduced the value a bit, but wasn't something they could reasonably have expected).
 

Sarge

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You can't rule anything out depending on the draft and what is happening. To have a general rule of not trading up or down is only limiting your options which is not too smart.

Having said that, it is undeniable that we need as many picks as possible. That much is not up for debate.

Yes, at this point I would be very hesitant to move up, but I would not rule that option out, or any option out, for that matter. Why would you?
 

TheMarathonContinues

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Spencer is the move I kept waiting to see referenced. We trade a second and third to get a good player in the late first, and the picks we traded to Philly ended up being scrubs.

April 28, 2007: Traded by Eagles as 2007 1st round pick (26th overall) to Cowboys for 2007 3rd round pick (87th overall, Stewart Bradley), 2007 2nd round pick (36th overall, Kevin Kolb) and 2007 5th round pick (159th overall, C.J. Gaddis)

See and this is a prime example why you do it IMO. Some believe why would you trade two starters for one. But in some cases, BOTH of your picks could be busts. So you trade better for a more sure thing player. I have no problem with it.

The draft is a crap shoot.

Even the Seahawks who everyone loves to bring up. Have you seen how many misses they've had in the early rounds of drafts? There's no method to it. You scout guys and you pick guys. Whether they become NFL players depends on the organiztaion and the coaches they are going to. But there's a reason why no matter who the Browns draft they all end up busts.
 

Sinister

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could've ended post there because the rest is make believe based on what you want to believe.

Fisher was going to take Claiborne so the Rams front office thoroughly vetted the player and found him wanting.

The Cowboys by their own admission did not thoroughly vet the pick.

Fisher offered up a slight win on the draft chart, because they knew they did not like the player at six.

The Cowboys bit and Claiborne was found wanting.

How is any of this make believe?
 

BAT

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Fisher was going to take Claiborne so the Rams front office thoroughly vetted the player and found him wanting.

The Cowboys by their own admission did not thoroughly vet the pick.

Fisher offered up a slight win on the draft chart, because they knew they did not like the player at six.

The Cowboys bit and Claiborne was found wanting.

How is any of this make believe?

Does Fisher still want him???
 

BAT

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It does not matter if we trade up or trade down...It matters hitting on the picks we do use.

Exactly! And having a quality evaluation team and strategy is a necessity PLUS letting your experts do their jobs without overriding them at drop of a hat. But Jerry loves SPLASH, the bigger the better so he can't help reaching for risky players because he loves showing off his football knowledge AND keeping the Cowboys front and center as often as possible.

So I have been shocked each and every time an OL is picked in first round, absolutely floored in disbelief in fact. Thought old man could actually be learning, then he drops his Johnny Football bomb and I just smh again.
 

Sinister

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Does Fisher still want him???

to be found wanting - Failing to live up to expectations. Output is not satisfactory.

Maybe Fisher will give up Brockers.:grin:
 
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TheMarathonContinues

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Exactly! And having a quality evaluation team and strategy is a necessity PLUS letting your experts do their jobs without overriding them at drop of a hat. But Jerry loves SPLASH, the bigger the better so he can't help reaching for risky players because he loves showing off his football knowledge AND keeping the Cowboys front and center as often as possible.

So I have been shocked each and every time an OL is picked in first round, absolutely floored in disbelief in fact. Thought old man could actually be learning, then he drops his Johnny Football bomb and I just smh again.

If it wasn't for "SPLASH" we wouldn't have Dez right now.
 

wileedog

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Thats right, because thats how you determine whether a pick pans out.

Not my point. Dez is a top 5 WR. But if we had a top, say, 15-20 WR on that spot, and also an above average 1 DT on the team, would we or would we not be in a better position to contend this year? Especially with all of our other weapons on offense? Did we NEED Dez?

That's the point. Everyone trying to justify that the defense won't be so bad this year keeps saying "you don't need a star at every position, you just need solid guys everywhere." I don't disagree.

But when you keep reaching for the shiny toys - the Galloways, the Roys, the Mo's, the Lawrence, and yes even the one's that work out like Dez, you are making it that much harder to get 'solid' guys everywhere. Because you keep giving away your opportunities to bring in 'solid' players, and you are left with all of the dumpster diving we did for years on the Oline, and now are doing on the defense.
 

Sinister

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If it wasn't for "SPLASH" we wouldn't have Dez right now.

I think there is a balance, we have to go up to get players we think are special, but sometimes you have to have the self-control to realize that a football team is more than just one or two key players.

I think the Cowboys are often over-aggressive, and I understand why. The problem is that that over-aggressiveness has left the team without depth. Not only without depth, but without a truly competitive defense.

We probably wouldn't have Dez without the "Splash" players, but maybe we would have a competitive defense.

The thing is, I don't think the two are mutually exclusive.

I think the problem is that we don't have a GM that plans for every scenario so when we are not getting players like Dez and we miss like we did with Claiborne we severely hamstring (pun intended) this team.
 

Craig

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Not my point. Dez is a top 5 WR. But if we had a top, say, 15-20 WR on that spot, and also an above average 1 DT on the team, would we or would we not be in a better position to contend this year? Especially with all of our other weapons on offense? Did we NEED Dez?

That's the point. Everyone trying to justify that the defense won't be so bad this year keeps saying "you don't need a star at every position, you just need solid guys everywhere." I don't disagree.

But when you keep reaching for the shiny toys - the Galloways, the Roys, the Mo's, the Lawrence, and yes even the one's that work out like Dez, you are making it that much harder to get 'solid' guys everywhere. Because you keep giving away your opportunities to bring in 'solid' players, and you are left with all of the dumpster diving we did for years on the Oline, and now are doing on the defense.
wow thats a really involved point to derive from your previous post.

If a player like dez is available at that point in the draft next year, it would be the right move to make the same trade for them, no matter what the offense looks like. The decision to make that trade was a layup and isnt the reason the defense is looking so bad.

I dont disagree with the sentiment regarding the splash trades, but thats a big reach from what you said.
 
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