We picked Escobar at 47, Pitt grabbed Bell at 48

Okay. Cool story.

I'm saying you wouldn't know that Bell could do that on a regular basis because he'd be getting exactly the kind of work load that Randal is getting this year.

Which is nothing.

Yeah murray would get 400 carries a year and bell would get 50. What a joke.

The coaches definitely would run murray into the ground and let bell sit the bench. Makes perfect sense.

Randle doesn't play because he can't pass protect. Randle isn't in the same league as bell.

Bell is a top five back and would not sit the bench on any team. Especially when he could offer something murray does not. The ability to take it 80 yards.
 
Yeah murray would get 400 carries a year and bell would get 50. What a joke.

The coaches definitely would run murray into the ground and let bell sit the bench. Makes perfect sense.

Randle doesn't play because he can't pass protect. Randle isn't in the same league as bell.

Bell is a top five back and would not sit the bench on any team. Especially when he could offer something murray does not. The ability to take it 80 yards.

Cool.

Glad you believe so.

I don't believe anyone would know that he could do that because he wouldn't have been given the chance to do so here.

You're taking what he's done as a starter on another team and applying it to if he was here as the back up not playing and thinking that he'd get the chance to do the same.

You'd know exactly about him if he was here, and what he could do given a chance, as you do about Randal. Absolutely nothing.

But it's okay that we don't agree. It's really of zero importance.
 
I created this thread because I thought it was interesting that we JUST missed on this guy. I realize you win some and lose some. We hit on Hitchens, we hit on Scandrick, we hit on T Fred.... We missed on MoC. I appreciate a lot of what our FO has accomplished in terms of bringing in talent. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't be able to point out areas I think we made a misstep.
So many people here are upset about me raising this point but let me ask you this:

The Steelers call us right now and offer Bell for Escobar straight up. What would you do?
 
Cool.

Glad you believe so.

I don't believe anyone would know that he could do that because he wouldn't have been given the chance to do so here.

You're taking what he's done as a starter on another team and applying it to if he was here as the back up not playing and thinking that he'd get the chance to do the same.

You'd know exactly about him if he was here, and what he could do given a chance, as you do about Randal. Absolutely nothing.

But it's okay that we don't agree. It's really of zero importance.

Nobody knows what he would do here. Correct. But you still gave your opinion on it. So I will give mine. You can use common sense. A second round pick that is now a top five back in the league. He's not gonna average 2 carries a game like randle. That's absurd. Why in the world would you run murray to death when you have another top five back?. Answer me that. Give me something to back up your point. You think bell just sucks like randle? Idk why else you would say that. If you have Jamaal Charles and Marshawn lynch on your team, you don't sit one and run the other 30 times a game. You split the carries. One is the home run hitter and the other is the grinder (murray)
 
again why spend a 2nd round pick on a RB. is that a bigger need than another OL? (think last year) or DT? or DE or LB or or TE or safety or CB? when you already have your #1 back on the team. how many teams in the league feature two elite #1 RBs? does any team really need to?

The Cowboys had just used a #1 on Frederick so other than RB defense made the most sense with that pick. Can't think of any defensive players who've done much in the league that ended up going just after Escobar. Bennie Logan went in the 3rd round and is starting for Philly so even he would have been a better choice than Escobar. The Cowboys could have traded down 13 spots and selected Lacy. TE made the least amount of sense with a Cowboys team that's committed to Witten. Marty B himself said he would never get an opportunity with Witten around. A lot of teams rotate backs and it makes no difference if they're both quality #1 backs.

No one knew what they were going to get with Bell or Lacy which is why both lasted as long as they did on draft day. There were teams that didn't view either as #1 backs. The Cowboys rotated Walker and Dorsett back in the mid 80's when teams never rotated backs. The Panthers have rotated Stewart and Williams for several seasons so it certainly isn't a problem having a couple of solid RB's especially when you have one that's been injury prone. It's a position where injuries frequently happen and Murray had missed games each of his first 3 seasons. He had an injury history back in college which is why he slipped to the 3rd round. When he was out of the lineup the Cowboys had no running game so RB made a hell of a lot of sense with that #2 pick.

Bell ranked anywhere from 4th to 10 best RB depending on who you believe. nobody had a 2nd round grade on him. but with that said, team grade players differently based on their philosophy, make up of their team and their needs. hanna was a project and limited from the time he was drafted. it was a developmental pick that could/could not pay off. its toughto count on low round picks working out (but great if they do). hanna didn't and team had first hand previewof what he could be (very limited as TE). so lets not put hanna on a pedestal as the answer to our back up TE and future TE needs. that's quite a reach.

You asked how many teams feature 2 elite #1 runners but the pre draft grade on Bell didn't point to him being an elite #1 runner. Even at this stage I wouldn't call him "elite" it's only been the last 4 games he's looked elite. Like I said no one knew what they were getting with Bell or Lacy most didn't think Lacy would develop into the receiver he has. Hanna was a project and with Witten firmly established as the #1 TE a project at TE was all the Cowboys needed. Marty B was billed as a freak coming out of college with loads of talent and it was never cultivated in Dallas due to having Witten. Teams especially 8-8 teams don't use #2 picks on TE's when they have a #1 TE firmly established at the position. You should be trying to fill holes with a #2 pick instead of picking a player who's rarely going to get an opportunity because the position they play is already being filled by a future HOF player.

the cowboys wanted to go to a two TE set (started with parcells, who had this idea about 2 TE sets, so we had drafted fasano in the 2nd round, billicheck showed everyone how it could work and be difficult to defend against). we drafted Bennett when fasano didn't work out and had spend several low round picks on TE prior (as we did on other positions so lets not just say TE). Bennett was continuation of chase for a two TE set, but the head case didn't work out. the team had been trying to find Witten's replacement. he was in his 10th year in the league when we drafted escobar....and as you said escobar was highly rated with the caveat that everyone knew he needs a coupleof seasons of seasoning (no pun intended)

Fasano was drafted to block it wasn't until AFTER they drafted him that they wanted to go to a 2 TE set to add another dimension to the passing game. When it became obvious that Romo could light it up as a passer the Cowboys were looking for a better receiving TE which is why they traded Fasano and drafted Marty B. I never said Escobar was highly rated most had him as the 3rd best TE in the draft which isn't that highly rated in my book. Marty B was probably more highly rated than Escobar. You never hear the word "freak" with Escobar. He appears to have talent but who knows what he is we never see enough of him to know what we have in him.


murray's injuries were of different varieties. breaking your foot in a freak tackle...that's not injury prone.

Having injuries of different varieties is considered injury prone. He's had nagging injuries that lingered. He had a "sprained foot" not a broken foot that lingered longer than everyone expected. He was only suppose to be out a game or 2 and ended up missing 6 games. He missed a number of games his first 2 seasons which is why heading into the 2013 draft the Cowboys listed RB as a need. Fans were starting to sour on Murray who couldn't stay healthy so RB was a need.
 
Ummm every team passed on Bell in that draft. What is the point? Some teams even passed on him twice. Boo hoo.
 
You asked how many teams feature 2 elite #1 runners but the pre draft grade on Bell didn't point to him being an elite #1 runner. Even at this stage I wouldn't call him "elite" it's only been the last 4 games he's looked elite. Like I said no one knew what they were getting with Bell or Lacy most didn't think Lacy would develop into the receiver he has.

I think Bell has the most elite skills in the league currently. I'll accept you aren't ready to make the 'elite' call with Bell until he has wrapped up this season.

I don't think Lacy is anything but an average (top 10-15 range) runner nor do I think he will ever be an elite runner. On the other hand - he's in a perfect offense for him -- 250lb bulldozer running against defenses that are terrified by the Packers passing game. I've been very surprised by Lacy's hands in the passing game -- usually big guys like that aren't involved.
 
The Steelers call us right now and offer Bell for Escobar straight up. What would you do?
 
Yeah murray would get 400 carries a year and bell would get 50. What a joke.

The coaches definitely would run murray into the ground and let bell sit the bench. Makes perfect sense.

Randle doesn't play because he can't pass protect. Randle isn't in the same league as bell.

Bell is a top five back and would not sit the bench on any team. Especially when he could offer something murray does not. The ability to take it 80 yards.

Murray has a 91 yard TD run on his resume.
 
I think Bell has the most elite skills in the league currently. I'll accept you aren't ready to make the 'elite' call with Bell until he has wrapped up this season.

I don't think Lacy is anything but an average (top 10-15 range) runner nor do I think he will ever be an elite runner. On the other hand - he's in a perfect offense for him -- 250lb bulldozer running against defenses that are terrified by the Packers passing game. I've been very surprised by Lacy's hands in the passing game -- usually big guys like that aren't involved.

Currently Bell is the hottest back in the league but until week 11 vs Tenn he had gone 6 straight games without a 100 yard game. Last season in 13 starts he averaged under 4 yards a carry. He's been terrific as a receiver but 3 great games doesn't make him an "elite back" he still needs to complete this season and see where he goes from there. As for Lacy I think he's an excellent back. The guy is a load who breaks tackles and punishes defenders. He's not a pretty, fluid runner but he's a north/south runner who gets the job done and has become a good receiver out of the back field.

He's averaging 4.5 a carry this season and has 7 TD's. Lacy went 10 straight games this season never receiving more than 17 carries. He's only had 2 games this season with 20 plus carries due to splitting time with James Starks and because the Packers are so pass happy with Rodgers. Lacy had 105 yards off of only 13 carries vs Minn. Last season he got more opportunity running the football with 10 games of 20 plus carries he's not getting the same opportunity this season so don't let his rushing yards fool you.
 
The Steelers call us right now and offer Bell for Escobar straight up. What would you do?

In a heart beat! With Murray's contract up at the end of this season Bell could come in very handy. With Witten, Beasley and the rest of the receiving talent the Cowboys have they don't have much use for Escobar his numbers after 29 games prove that.
 
Nobody knows what he would do here. Correct. But you still gave your opinion on it. So I will give mine. You can use common sense. A second round pick that is now a top five back in the league. He's not gonna average 2 carries a game like randle. That's absurd. Why in the world would you run murray to death when you have another top five back?. Answer me that. Give me something to back up your point. You think bell just sucks like randle? Idk why else you would say that. If you have Jamaal Charles and Marshawn lynch on your team, you don't sit one and run the other 30 times a game. You split the carries. One is the home run hitter and the other is the grinder (murray)


Because I don't know that Randall sucks. I don't get to see him play enough to know how good he is or could be. He doesn't even get a chance.

Which is the point. We wouldn't know that Bell is a top five back either if he'd been here because he wouldn't have been given enough of a chance to display that ability.

I don't believe that they'd have given Bell anymore chance as the back up running back then they've given the back up running backs they currently have.

You're contention is they would based off of what you've seen of Bell elsewhere. you wouldn't have that knowledge of him if he'd been in Dallas so far. Murray was their starter, this guy would be his back up like Randall and wouldn't be getting the chances he needs to showcase his ability.

Unless your contention is that you knew, for sure, when Pittsburgh drafted him in round two that he was a top 5 back without ever seeing him play a down of football then there is basis for what you're saying.

Now if Dallas signed him now, today, to back up Murray, seeing what he did in Pittsburgh this entire time, then yes you'd absolutely split carries with them. But given the fact that if they drafted him back then we would not have seen what he has done in Pittsburgh you're going completely by the assumption that this coaching staff would simply give him more of a chance as the back up back based off of....I'm not sure what. They don't let their back up backs have much of a chance here, at all, now and I don't know why you believe that it would be different with Bell because he's Bell.

He is clearly a better back than Randall from what we've seen. Without question. I am not disagreeing with you at all on this. I'm just saying that none of us would know that if they'd drafted him because he just wouldn't have been given enough chances to prove it on Sunday's cause Dallas just doesn't seem to show any desire to split work loads or give their back up running backs a whole lot of chances.
 
Without reading all eight pages of the post yet, did anybody mention the 2011 draft when Dallas took CB Josh Thomas at 143 overall and some guy named Richard Sherman went at 158??
 
The Cowboys had just used a #1 on Frederick so other than RB defense made the most sense with that pick. Can't think of any defensive players who've done much in the league that ended up going just after Escobar. Bennie Logan went in the 3rd round and is starting for Philly so even he would have been a better choice than Escobar. The Cowboys could have traded down 13 spots and selected Lacy. TE made the least amount of sense with a Cowboys team that's committed to Witten. Marty B himself said he would never get an opportunity with Witten around. A lot of teams rotate backs and it makes no difference if they're both quality #1 backs.

No one knew what they were going to get with Bell or Lacy which is why both lasted as long as they did on draft day. There were teams that didn't view either as #1 backs. The Cowboys rotated Walker and Dorsett back in the mid 80's when teams never rotated backs. The Panthers have rotated Stewart and Williams for several seasons so it certainly isn't a problem having a couple of solid RB's especially when you have one that's been injury prone. It's a position where injuries frequently happen and Murray had missed games each of his first 3 seasons. He had an injury history back in college which is why he slipped to the 3rd round. When he was out of the lineup the Cowboys had no running game so RB made a hell of a lot of sense with that #2 pick.

actually taking a TE did make sense, given your starting TE is in his 10th year. there were several reports that the team was concerned about Witten declining and was looking for his replacement. So as much as team may have been committed to Witten (i.e. Romo depending on him), the brass was looking for his eventual replacement and they see escobar in that role.

now as to Bennett. who flamed out. he was drafted in 2008 and let go in 2011. Witten was still in his prime. a probowl TE during that time. so not sure if its the same as 2013 (as player declines accelerate towards the end of their careers and it comes sudden).

and to your point, no team viewed either back as a #1 back. so why spend a 2nd round pick on a back you don't consider #1 and only as a back up? RBs are also one of the easiest positions to fill in the NFL and spending a high rounder often makes no sense outside of finding an AP type talent and again, none of these backs garnered that kind of grade.

again, I am not arguing going for a defensive player over a TE. heck even another OL man, why not? we did draft martin this year. so guard was a need. but not a RB. a back up RB for us then would have been a luxuary, compared to all the other needs we had to fill.

You asked how many teams feature 2 elite #1 runners but the pre draft grade on Bell didn't point to him being an elite #1 runner. Even at this stage I wouldn't call him "elite" it's only been the last 4 games he's looked elite. Like I said no one knew what they were getting with Bell or Lacy most didn't think Lacy would develop into the receiver he has. Hanna was a project and with Witten firmly established as the #1 TE a project at TE was all the Cowboys needed. Marty B was billed as a freak coming out of college with loads of talent and it was never cultivated in Dallas due to having Witten. Teams especially 8-8 teams don't use #2 picks on TE's when they have a #1 TE firmly established at the position. You should be trying to fill holes with a #2 pick instead of picking a player who's rarely going to get an opportunity because the position they play is already being filled by a future HOF player.

so why all the fuss over bell if he is not elite? who cares. if he is only showing it in the last 4 games, in dallas he would be getting 4-5 touches a game at most. is that worth a 2nd round pick? for a player you probably plan to give the ball to around 4-5 times a game!?

I also think dallas knew what they had in hanna and he was never going to be the eventual replacement for witten and that's what they wanted. they also were leaning towards two TE sets that NE and billicheck ran and hanna wasn't going to be that second TE.

and I agree that we should be filling in holes...but again the argument is not if a TE was the right pick over a LB, OL or DT.... the question is if a TE was a better choice than a back up RB? I think yes. because you can effectively deploy two TE sets (if escobar pans out), but two RB sets!!!? even in Carolina with two #1 backs. they didn't run them together in the same back field. it was alternating and splitting carries. you can do that with one RB like 95% of other NFL teams.

Fasano was drafted to block it wasn't until AFTER they drafted him that they wanted to go to a 2 TE set to add another dimension to the passing game. When it became obvious that Romo could light it up as a passer the Cowboys were looking for a better receiving TE which is why they traded Fasano and drafted Marty B. I never said Escobar was highly rated most had him as the 3rd best TE in the draft which isn't that highly rated in my book. Marty B was probably more highly rated than Escobar. You never hear the word "freak" with Escobar. He appears to have talent but who knows what he is we never see enough of him to know what we have in him.

Having injuries of different varieties is considered injury prone. He's had nagging injuries that lingered. He had a "sprained foot" not a broken foot that lingered longer than everyone expected. He was only suppose to be out a game or 2 and ended up missing 6 games. He missed a number of games his first 2 seasons which is why heading into the 2013 draft the Cowboys listed RB as a need. Fans were starting to sour on Murray who couldn't stay healthy so RB was a need.

I don't think parcells thought of fasano as a blocking TE. perhaps an H-back type like Cooley. but also a pass catching threat. he was trying to create mismatches against traditional defenses with two TE sets. Billicheck perfected it (and then his guy got himself jailed).

fasano was limited athletically as a TE in blocking and pass catching. to your point the cowboys wanted a better one, thus marty B.

now in terms of injury prone. I call Austin injury prone since he had the same injury over and over and could never get over it. but unrelated injuries? some players get them, some don't not sure why. a sprained foot. vs. a bad back, vs. a knew sprain. same with Lee. he has had injuries. but is his ligament tear related to his shoulder injury and does that make him injury prone? are some players just more fragile physically? that's up for debate.
 
actually taking a TE did make sense, given your starting TE is in his 10th year.

Well it didn't make sense to me when Witten was not even 31 yet when Escobar was drafted. Witten has been very durable missing only one game his entire career and TE's can play effectively into their mid to late 30's. I gave a very thorough explanation as to why the pick didn't make sense and I'm not going to waste my time arguing it any further.


I don't think parcells thought of fasano as a blocking TE. perhaps an H-back type like Cooley. but also a pass catching threat. he was trying to create mismatches against traditional defenses with two TE sets. Billicheck perfected it (and then his guy got himself jailed).

fasano was limited athletically as a TE in blocking and pass catching. to your point the cowboys wanted a better one, thus marty B.

Fasano graded out to be the best blocking TE in the draft which is why the Cowboys drafted him and although he reminded Parcells of Mark Bavaro his primary job was to block in a 2 TE offense for Bledsoe. Like I said when Bledsoe was benched in favor of Romo Fasano became expendable which is why he was traded after only 2 seasons and the Cowboys burned another #2 on Bennett who they saw as a better pass receiver. I'm not going to continue arguing this any further.


now in terms of injury prone. I call Austin injury prone since he had the same injury over and over and could never get over it. but unrelated injuries? some players get them, some don't not sure why. a sprained foot. vs. a bad back, vs. a knew sprain. same with Lee. he has had injuries. but is his ligament tear related to his shoulder injury and does that make him injury prone? are some players just more fragile physically? that's up for debate.

A player doesn't have to have the same injury repeatedly to be injury prone. A variety of injuries that keep happening makes a player injury prone. That's my opinion and if you don't agree fine.
 
again, given murray's performance this year. how many reps would bell get? how many reps does the back up to bell get? apprantley not much since he got p!ssed off and blew off the team and subsequently picked up by patriots.how many carries does sproles get behind McCoy? behind lynch? how many carries did foresett get behind rice? its the same across the league. there is not one team in the league that has two elite RB featured. I can't remember the last time any team had it.... so its wishful thinking to say hey great lets have two elite RBs and split carries and run the ball 40 times a game. it just doesn't work that way. this ain't fantasy football.

so to your point the question is about the game plan. would having bell guarantee that he would have been part of the game plan and get 10-15 carries a game? I seriously doubt it. there is no proof anywhere that teams do that in the past 10 years...with the league going towards more passing......again wishful thinking.

if this group would argue instead of escobar we should have picked a DT. DE. OL or LB, then there would be an argument. to say we should have picked Bell. its asinine. we even questioned Garrett when he picked murray way back when we had felix jones and barber as one-two punch...now everyone is arguing we should have picked a RB in the2nd round!!!!!!

None of that has anything to do with my point. I am specifically saying an Escobar vs Bell discussion is pointless. The real point is we need to be spending that 2nd rounder on someone that will get reps, if it's Escobar then so be it, but use him. If it had been Bell, then use him. If you aren't going to use them, don't draft them.
 
actually taking a TE did make sense, given your starting TE is in his 10th year. there were several reports that the team was concerned about Witten declining and was looking for his replacement. So as much as team may have been committed to Witten (i.e. Romo depending on him), the brass was looking for his eventual replacement and they see escobar in that role.

now as to Bennett. who flamed out. he was drafted in 2008 and let go in 2011. Witten was still in his prime. a probowl TE during that time. so not sure if its the same as 2013 (as player declines accelerate towards the end of their careers and it comes sudden).

and to your point, no team viewed either back as a #1 back. so why spend a 2nd round pick on a back you don't consider #1 and only as a back up? RBs are also one of the easiest positions to fill in the NFL and spending a high rounder often makes no sense outside of finding an AP type talent and again, none of these backs garnered that kind of grade.

again, I am not arguing going for a defensive player over a TE. heck even another OL man, why not? we did draft martin this year. so guard was a need. but not a RB. a back up RB for us then would have been a luxuary, compared to all the other needs we had to fill.



so why all the fuss over bell if he is not elite? who cares. if he is only showing it in the last 4 games, in dallas he would be getting 4-5 touches a game at most. is that worth a 2nd round pick? for a player you probably plan to give the ball to around 4-5 times a game!?

I also think dallas knew what they had in hanna and he was never going to be the eventual replacement for witten and that's what they wanted. they also were leaning towards two TE sets that NE and billicheck ran and hanna wasn't going to be that second TE.

and I agree that we should be filling in holes...but again the argument is not if a TE was the right pick over a LB, OL or DT.... the question is if a TE was a better choice than a back up RB? I think yes. because you can effectively deploy two TE sets (if escobar pans out), but two RB sets!!!? even in Carolina with two #1 backs. they didn't run them together in the same back field. it was alternating and splitting carries. you can do that with one RB like 95% of other NFL teams.



I don't think parcells thought of fasano as a blocking TE. perhaps an H-back type like Cooley. but also a pass catching threat. he was trying to create mismatches against traditional defenses with two TE sets. Billicheck perfected it (and then his guy got himself jailed).

fasano was limited athletically as a TE in blocking and pass catching. to your point the cowboys wanted a better one, thus marty B.

now in terms of injury prone. I call Austin injury prone since he had the same injury over and over and could never get over it. but unrelated injuries? some players get them, some don't not sure why. a sprained foot. vs. a bad back, vs. a knew sprain. same with Lee. he has had injuries. but is his ligament tear related to his shoulder injury and does that make him injury prone? are some players just more fragile physically? that's up for debate.

Youre the one making it a fuss...by repeating the same points over and over. Poll the board if you need, see who thinks TE made sense, most wont care but....NO ONE liked this pick. Witten will be on this roster at least another 2 years barring major injury. Guess what? Escobar's rookie contract is up then too, will he have shown enough to resign him? If we were looking for eventual replacements it made far more sense to start looking at one for (insert starting FS) ,Ware, & Romo.

In your earlier responses to me you didnt understand why I was gaga for Bell & stated how all these other positions made sense over RB...I never claimed either. Im not gaga for Bell and I already said on the first page of this thread we wouldnt know what we had anyway (what he is today for Pitt). I also said we had other immediate needs, but if you went to secondary needs (outside of the obvious at the time)...in the 2nd round (as we did) Bell (or another RB) made more sense over a TE. The "neither was a #1 back" isnt much of a defense when no one saw Escobar as an immediate challenge for time/replacement for Witten either.

Murray has been prone to injury since college. Im a Sooner fan, even though I loved the pick, I didnt think he would be the long term answer. I love the guy and what he has done this year, but this year (a contract year, go figure) is the first time he has played a full season (knock on wood). There was no reason to believe last year was going to be any different which is why we grabbed Randle later, who had fell, and was great value. You say it made sense, I say the LAST 3 TE PICKS (and the other 2nd we gave away for Claiborne, not to mention the 1st) are reasons there are and have been so many holes in this defense.
 
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Murray not good enough for you?

That's not the point.................if we drafted Bell, then we would already have another stud RB on the roster that could be the starter next year when Murray leaves.

I hate to break the news to you, but there is a reason Jerry keeps telling everybody how awesome Randal would be with 30 carries a game.................we are not breaking the bank for Murray.

We offered Murray 4 yrs, $16 million and he turned it down...................shortly after that is when Jerry started telling everybody that Randal would put up 100 yards a game just like Murray if he had the touches.............not a coincidence.
 
Why would we have drafted Bell with Murray already on the team?

Maybe because Murray is in the last year of his contract and is fixing to be a free agent?

I think that is the point the OP was trying to make. That yea, we have Murray for one more year and with the trend of not giving RBs second contracts, you were going to need a replacement after this season. Bell could play in spot duty this year and then take over as the starter next year when Murray leaves.

The OP has a point.
 
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