What annoys me most . . .

[ABQCOWBOY]

You picked two of his worst games to use to help your argument. The Detroit and Clevaland games were two places where his miscues did put the game in jeopardy.

The Green Bay and Minnesota games were evidence of how he could play well, as was the second Giants game and the Pittsburgh game...with the exception of the gaffe at the end.

Two things.

One, I did not pick these games. I simply stated that the running games did not help Vinnie much in these contests.

Two, I don't have an argument to support on Vinnie. He was what he was. I think Bledsoe is much the same in this respect.

Vinnie threw INTs in those games but he also won them for us IMO. He did not receive much help offensively.

 

[Alexander]

To imply that Bledsoe is a slight upgrade is ridiculous. Vinny had nothning left last year and got by on heart alone. Bledsoe is still young and strong. He'll buy into this system and "drive the Bus" More then anything he is what we haven't had here since Aikman left. He's a leader.

A slight upgrade? Get a clue.

But some people were born to be pessimestic and will always be pessimestic

And some people were born to homer out.

Realizing something is what it is and not making excuses for it is not the sign of pessimism but an indication of realism.

Bledsoe probably only a slight upgrade, whether you want to admit it or not.

You seem to think that those who believe that are comparing the Vinny at the end of last year is the benchmark. The Testeverde we saw the first few games of the season, while Glenn was healthy is what we will probably get with Bledsoe. That's not an insult to Bledsoe. It is a realistic expectation based upon the trend of his career and free and clear of excuses for why he could not do the job elsewhere.

 

[Alexander]

I simply stated that the running games did not help Vinnie much in these contests.

The Detroit game was Eddie George's best single game performance. What game did you watch? We controlled the tempo with it. Testaverde put the game in jeopardy with an interception returned for a TD and numerous communication miscues with Keyshawn Johnson.

Two, I don't have an argument to support on Vinnie. He was what he was. I think Bledsoe is much the same in this respect.

We agreec completely.

Vinnie threw INTs in those games but he also won them for us IMO. He did not receive much help offensively.

I don't think Vinny won any games for us single-handedly. That was part of the problem and is a problem that we will face again this year with Bledsoe.

 

[playit12]

You picked two of his worst games to use to help your argument. The Detroit and Clevaland games were two places where his miscues did put the game in jeopardy.

The Green Bay and Minnesota games were evidence of how he could play well, as was the second Giants game and the Pittsburgh game...with the exception of the gaffe at the end.

I think he only picked those two because they were previously mentioned. But I think his point was fair. It's never a good sign when your 41 year old QB has 5 less rushing yards then your starting RB with less than half of the carries. We were down the whole game and he was trying to force us out of the whole.

By the way... I don't think I blame Vinny for the Pitt Game. It looked to me like his arm was hit. They played it about 10 times over and it always looked like just a really bad accident on the part of Richie. But then Richie shouldn't have had to be in the game that much and he was clearly tired. So maybe it was Bill's Fault?

 

[31hammer]

You seem to think that those who believe that are comparing the Vinny at the end of last year is the benchmark. The Testeverde we saw the first few games of the season, while Glenn was healthy is what we will probably get with Bledsoe. That's not an insult to Bledsoe. It is a realistic expectation based upon the trend of his career and free and clear of excuses for why he could not do the job elsewhere.

You proved my point. Of course it's the bench mark. Vinny had nothning left and he couldn't last 16 games. Bledsoe can compete the whole season at a high level.

If that's not a huge(not slight) upgrade Then I don't know what is.

 

[Nors]

VT is the career record holder for Interceptions thrown. He's thrown more than any other QB that has played in the NFL.

I believe at one point in his career after chucking like 35 picks he claimed he was color blind. That always makes me chuckle.

 

[playit12]

At this point I'm going to simply agree to disagree since we are obviously not going to convince each other of our position. But I must say it has been an interesting discussion.

Agreed... I'm sure we'll get to revisit as the season goes on. I look foward to being proven wrong!

 

[playit12]

I agree with much of what you say here 12 but I think Jack is correct about Vinnie and his propesity to throw picks late. Here is a post that I made back in week 12 of last season that kind of illustrates this point.

http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14744&highlight=Vinnie+INTs

Thanks ABQ, I'll check this out... I'm curious if the picks came when he was tired, when he was trying to force some kind of offense to compensate for our defense, or if they really were the fault of our recievers.

Man I wish I Tivo'd the season.

** Edit **

Man I wish I had seen this thread back then. I would have liked to debate some of the why instead of the Toon Hijack you got instead. I'd be curious how other guys did by quarter. I wonder if that is really that unusual for a team with a bad defense? Something to do instead of work I guess!

 

[Badattitude]

Umm...If you guys think Vin lacked character, you are sadly mistaken. He did not come here to cash in, he came here for another "shot"...

People who compare Vinny and Bledsoe are correct, both throw huge picks, both had big college reps, both are slower than a mailbox, both throw off theis backfoot on a regular basis, both are BP guys, both throw a good deep bal.

 

[Alexander]

VT is the career record holder for Interceptions thrown. He's thrown more than any other QB that has played in the NFL.

No he hasn't. George Blanda has.

Do you have to be told that yet again?

Oh yes. Facts do not concern you.

I believe at one point in his career after chucking like 35 picks he claimed he was color blind. That always makes me chuckle.

And that is any more of an excuse than blaming a lack of system, poor OL and a lack of receivers as Bledsoe has been known to do?

 

[Alexander]

You proved my point.

No I didn't. You entirely missed mine.

Of course it's the bench mark.

The benchmark was the Vinny early in the season before his age and arm fatigue wore him out. That is where the slight upgrade will occur.

Vinny had nothning left and he couldn't last 16 games. Bledsoe can compete the whole season at a high level.

Of course he could. He is alot younger. All you have demonstrated is that he has a stronger arm and is younger. Two facts which are not debateable.

 

[31hammer]

No I didn't. You entirely missed mine.



The benchmark was the Vinny early in the season before his age and arm fatigue wore him out. That is where the slight upgrade will occur.



Of course he could. He is alot younger. All you have demonstrated is that he has a stronger arm and is younger. Two facts which are not debateable.

Yeah add up stronger + youger= big upgrade.

If you weren't so blinded by your cycnicism you would be able to see that

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

The Detroit game was Eddie George's best single game performance. What game did you watch? We controlled the tempo with it. Testaverde put the game in jeopardy with an interception returned for a TD and numerous communication miscues with Keyshawn Johnson.



We agreec completely.



I don't think Vinny won any games for us single-handedly. That was part of the problem and is a problem that we will face again this year with Bledsoe.

I watched Eddie George. He rushed for 99 yards on 31 carries. That's 3.19 YPC. I clearly stated that the running game was not very productive but we did stay with it so not really sure where the disconnect is here.

I will say that Vinnie made mistakes in the Detroit game that cost, namely a INT that was returned 55 for a TD but really, he played pretty well in this game. On the five Dallas scoring drives, Vinnie was big. On the first scoring drive (TD), Vinnie was 6 for 6 for 58 yards, converting 4 1st downs and a TD. On the second scoring drive he was 4 of 4 for 49 yards and actually scrambled for a 1st down on 4th and 3 to keep the drive alive and threw a TD. On our third TD drive, he ran it in from 3 yards out to score the TD. On our 4th scoring drive (FG), he was 2 of 3 for 25 yards and threw for 1st. On our 5th scoring drive, he was 2 for 2 for 68 yards, converting two 3rd and 8s and throwing the TD.

All in all, Vinnie was 14 of 15 for 200 yards, 4 TDs (3 pass, 1 rush) on our scoring drives. I'd say he won that game for us.

 

[Chuck 54]

What annoys me most is how players instantly become twice as good as they ever were the day they sign with the Cowboys. Bledsoe has won one more game than he's lost in his career. He is what he is.

Ding ding ding....we have a winner.

HOwever, I'll add this:

IF Parcells could get what he got out of 41 year old Vinnie, due to the system and the running game, then he should be able to win and make a playoff push with Drew.

 

[Doomsday101]

I think most of us have different expectation regarding Bledsoe, myself I'm not expecting Pro Bowl numbers from him but I do think the Cowboys can have a winning season with Bledsoe at QB. I don't consider him a savior of the Cowboys just a QB who I think can do the job as long as the other pieces of the offense are doing their jobs. I have seen other QB's who have moved to another team and had their career rejuvenated, I don't know if that will be the case with Bledsoe but as a fan of this team I will support him and judge him by how he performs here in Dallas. Right now Drew has the support of his teammates and they seem to have confidence in him and that matters more to me than if fans have confidence in him. You guys don't play the game, they do

 

[AtlCB]

Yeah I do think Vinny throws more picks then Bledsoe. In my first post I said that they were very similar except that Vinny was more accurate (completed more passes) but that Drew made better decisions. I think that is really the main difference and I don't think it's substantial. But I do think that the numbers last year were inflated because of our inexperience at reciever and Vinny feeling forced to compensate for the woeful defense. Had Drew been forced to "win games" I think his pick totals would have been higher. Also with regards to reciever quality I think Moulds and Reed are both good experienced guys. Plus their rookie, Evans, was (I believe) a first round pick compared to our late round or unsigned guys.

I think Vinny had a better arm then people are giving him credit for, but that is of course difficult to prove either way. However either way I don't think Drew's arm is that much more "livelier". At least it's certainly not supported in the numbers.

Moulds caught 88 passes for 1,043 yards. Reed only started one game and was largely a non-factor with 153 yards receiving. Evans caught 48 passes for 843 yards. Mark Campbell only caught 17 passes for 203 yards.

Keyshawn caught 70 passes for 981 yards. Jason Witten caught 87 passes for 980 yards. I just don't see much difference in the receivers - even with Glenn out.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Thanks ABQ, I'll check this out... I'm curious if the picks came when he was tired, when he was trying to force some kind of offense to compensate for our defense, or if they really were the fault of our recievers.

Man I wish I Tivo'd the season.

** Edit **

Man I wish I had seen this thread back then. I would have liked to debate some of the why instead of the Toon Hijack you got instead. I'd be curious how other guys did by quarter. I wonder if that is really that unusual for a team with a bad defense? Something to do instead of work I guess!

Yeah, I had studied Vinnie up to that point but after that, I pretty much stopped analysing him as I figured we were done, for the most part. I thought is was interesting thou.

 

[ravidubey]

I watched Bledsoe play one of the Guttsiest games I ever seen someone play( except when Emmitt played the Giants with the seperated shoulder) when he came off the bench and beat the Steelers in the championship game. That was heart, leadership and experience.

Don't forget the game he won with a severely broken index finger on his throwing hand. Drew has demonstrated as much or more guts than any QB playing today-- he's right up there with Brett Favre in this department.

 

[Alexander]

I watched Eddie George. He rushed for 99 yards on 31 carries. That's 3.19 YPC. I clearly stated that the running game was not very productive but we did stay with it so not really sure where the disconnect is here.

Like Hambrick, we controlled the tempo because we stuck with it. That allowed him to be successful.

I will say that Vinnie made mistakes in the Detroit game that cost, namely a INT that was returned 55 for a TD but really, he played pretty well in this game. On the five Dallas scoring drives, Vinnie was big. On the first scoring drive (TD), Vinnie was 6 for 6 for 58 yards, converting 4 1st downs and a TD. On the second scoring drive he was 4 of 4 for 49 yards and actually scrambled for a 1st down on 4th and 3 to keep the drive alive and threw a TD. On our third TD drive, he ran it in from 3 yards out to score the TD. On our 4th scoring drive (FG), he was 2 of 3 for 25 yards and threw for 1st. On our 5th scoring drive, he was 2 for 2 for 68 yards, converting two 3rd and 8s and throwing the TD.

All in all, Vinnie was 14 of 15 for 200 yards, 4 TDs (3 pass, 1 rush) on our scoring drives. I'd say he won that game for us.

Fair enough---but he also put us in a very bad position late in the game. That last pass to Keyshawn saved him.

 

[Alexander]

Yeah add up stronger + youger= big upgrade.

If you weren't so blinded by your cycnicism you would be able to see that

Stronger + younger - worse in the pocket - fumbles = slight upgrade.