What do Quincy, Roger and Troy have in common?

[Dale]

if we were to get another Troy, then we would need another Irvin, Emmitt, OL, DL, TE FB, and the same type of system in order for him to duplicate what the first Aikman did. That is a true fact, because Aikman by himself never produce any wins, that I can recall.

Roger is my all time favorite QB, Number 1 in my mind. Carter is a better athlete than he was, pure athletic ability, Carter has him.

Carter's a very fine athlete within the pocket, as he's shown a real solid ability of avoiding potential sackers to gain some extra time so he can make his throw. But in the open field, Carter has not shown near as much athletic ability.

I'm not old enough to have watched Staubach play, but a quick glance at the stat sheet -- along with the footage I've seen and opinions I've read -- indicates to me that Staubach was just as good, if not a better athlete than Carter.

Staubach had over 2200 rushing in his career with a 5.5 yard average and 20 touchdowns. Surely he didn't accomplish that with lead-filled feet.

How is Carter the better athlete? How can this be gauged?

 

[LeonDixson]

A extreme Carterite starts a thread for the sole purpose of keeping the crap going, and it is the so-called bashers that have not evolved past 3rd grade?

Funny how you ignore that, by last count, 19 of the last 23 threads on this subject that have turned ugly, have been started by the PRO- Carter side of the debate.

As said before by several of the so-called haters; we DO NOT hate Carter. Most of us like Quincy the person, we just don't think he is a good QB.

We do have a problem with the constant, mindless drivel that comes from the keyboards of the extreme Quincy backers.

I've pointed this out several times Zebe. They complain about how "old" the subject and the arguments are but keep on sending out those engraved invitiations to debate the issue. You will probably be ignored to, put your point is accurate. If they didn't start the threads, there would only be a few. It's just plain hipocracy.

 

[BHendri5]

Your opinion. When Dallas needed Troy to step up his game he did. Post season number Troy is ranked higher than any QB. Of course Troy played within the team system so do all other QB. What start to separate QB is guys who can step up in critical times and those who can't. Troy stepped up when needed

I always saw him step back turn and hand off to Emmitt Smith. He was asked to make throws when needed, but the majority of the time he handed the ball off to Emmitt in the post season. People take that one NFC Championship game and run with it, did we win? NO. How many Ints was thrown that game?

He was a very very good system QB, that is a TRUE fact, but as you have said and I myself have said it is a team game and without the necessary pieces you will not win.
I have never seen him carry a team like Marino, Elway, or Favre, well Montana when he was with KC, or even the dreaded eagles QB McNabb.

 

[blindzebra]

I always saw him step back turn and hand off to Emmitt Smith. He was asked to make throws when needed, but the majority of the time he handed the ball off to Emmitt in the post season. People take that one NFC Championship game and run with it, did we win? NO. How many Ints was thrown that game?

He was a very very good system QB, that is a TRUE fact, but as you have said and I myself have said it is a team game and without the necessary pieces you will not win.
I have never seen him carry a team like Marino, Elway, or Favre, well Montana when he was with KC, or even the dreaded eagles QB McNabb.

I guess I imagined that Super Bowl MVP. Seems to me the big play that broke the back of the 49ers in 92 was a PASS. He has one of the highest post season QB ratings, yet all we did was hand it off to Emmitt.

We passed early to get a lead, then we would beat them into the ground, pounding the ball with Emmitt.

Did you actually EVER watch a game? Or did you just start when Carter got here?

 

[BHendri5]

If your going to act ******** then just avoid my posting.

********? Oh, you figure if we just got another Aikman, we will automatically win? I know you are a smarter football person than that.
And you want to say I'm being ********. Another aikman would need the same things that the first aikman had to succeed, because that second aikman willhave the same exact problems as well as the good things.

No, I will not avoid your posts, you post some good debatable things. You leave a lot of things to be debated in your posts.

but they are good things, and people like myself that just doesn't see that things like Aikman is great as a cut and dried subject will debate with you. There are reasons and players that helped Aikman to become great.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

ABQ, speaking of controversy...wasn't Aikman gay at one point? Only kidding.

Nors is right about one thing. For a Dallas Cowboys quarterback to be truly remembered and honored by the fanbase, the guy has got to produce Super Bowl victories. Quincy, Henson, or whoever can throw for 3000 yards all they want, but if they don't get us deep into postseason play, they'll be considered mere stop-gap players between our "great" ones.

Hey Dale,

Good to see you posting. Yeah, I think Lori Morgan started that one. LOL

Can't wait till the season starts.

 

[BHendri5]

Carter's a very fine athlete within the pocket, as he's shown a real solid ability of avoiding potential sackers to gain some extra time so he can make his throw. But in the open field, Carter has not shown near as much athletic ability.

I'm not old enough to have watched Staubach play, but a quick glance at the stat sheet -- along with the footage I've seen and opinions I've read -- indicates to me that Staubach was just as good, if not a better athlete than Carter.

Staubach had over 2200 rushing in his career with a 5.5 yard average and 20 touchdowns. Surely he didn't accomplish that with lead-filled feet.

How is Carter the better athlete? How can this be gauged?

Staubach was great, have you seen footage of Fran Tarkenton, he was great too at getting away from the rush and running, those two were constatnly compared to each other back then. Roger had Drew, T. Hill and G. Richards and later B. Johnson, Fran had Rashad, Sammy white, the other 2 guys I cannot remember their names right now.

Staubach might have been more athlete than QB, he was a playmaker.
Carter refuses to run, he sees himself as a pocket passer, and he does a pretty good when he has time in the pocket, that has been hashed out in here too.

Carter has said on numerous occasions that he would rather not run at all, I do not know if he is scared or what, but he can run the ball. He just refuses to do so. Those INTs people talk about so much that he throws when he's running out of the pocket, happens because he really do not want to run the ball. So when he should just go ahead and run, or throw it away he tries at the last minute to throw the pass to someone, which he should not do. The defense knows he doesn't want to run, he does not scare them at all when he goes on the move.

quincy is not a RB, and he does not have that RB mentality. he will throw that ball ,before he will run it.
He has God given athletic ability but he will not use it. Now he says he will run more this season, we shall see, I thought that he said the same thing last season.

 

[blindzebra]

Staubach was great, have you seen footage of Fran Tarkenton, he was great too at getting away from the rush and running, those two were constatnly compared to each other back then. Roger had Drew, T. Hill and G. Richards and later B. Johnson, Fran had Rashad, Sammy white, the other 2 guys I cannot remember their names right now.

Staubach might have been more athlete than QB, he was a playmaker.
Carter refuses to run, he sees himself as a pocket passer, and he does a pretty good when he has time in the pocket, that has been hashed out in here too.

Carter has said on numerous occasions that he would rather not run at all, I do not know if he is scared or what, but he can run the ball. He just refuses to do so. Those INTs people talk about so much that he throws when he's running out of the pocket, happens because he really do not want to run the ball. So when he should just go ahead and run, or throw it away he tries at the last minute to throw the pass to someone, which he should not do. The defense knows he doesn't want to run, he does not scare them at all when he goes on the move.

quincy is not a RB, and he does not have that RB mentality. he will throw that ball ,before he will run it.
He has God given athletic ability but he will not use it. Now he says he will run more this season, we shall see, I thought that he said the same thing last season.

Let's see I'm confused.

First, Q is a better athlete than Roger. Now Roger was more athlete than QB.
Which is it?

I really like how you are using my criticism of Carter's hesitancy to run, a point you argued against by-the-way, not that long ago.

This post is so flip-flopped it must be Airman Daly.

 

[TwoDeep3]

JTerrell mewed:

Hard to say he can or cant given he hasnt played in an offense for more than 1 year until now.

This is an oft uttered comment by the Defenders of the Flake. Meant to justify the sub-par play by the Tongue that Led the Cowboys.

The real fallacy here ignores that every offense has the same throws.

Outs, posts, slants (except for Dallas), crossing routes.

They all are comprised of throwing a ball to a spot on the field that your receivers are running toward.

The idea that one offense is so drastically different than another, therefore the quarterback is hamstrung because they are different is illogical in this regard.

The terminology is different. There may be plays more favored in one than another.

But the reads of defenses does not change. Nor does throwing a ball to a spot where you expect your receiver to be.

Since Carter is such a textbook guy that he studies ALL off-season, then terminology shouldn't be a problem for him.

Does this mean a quarterback can excell in his first year of a system and learn everything?

Probably not.

But said system doesn't cause a quarterback to throw wobbly passes, interceptions, one-hoppers, and make poor decisions when the ball should be tossed into the first row of the stands.

Neither does a runningback. Which is the second mis-conception by those who kneal at the alter of Spit-Cup Carter.

Stop the excuses.

 

[jterrell]

Troy was more than a system QB. There are many throws that Troy could pull off that Carter can't, such as a 20 yard out on a frozen rope with great accuracy. Time after time Troy would hit Irvin in the numbers on that rout. In games where Dallas was forced to pass a lot more such as the NFC Championship games aginst GB Troy matched Favre through out the day. To claim Troy was nothing more than a system QB is far from reality

YAWWNNN.
We have been through this ad nauseum.

Troy was a great QB. He was also a system QB. It isnt an insult, its a compliment. Its why Jimmy called him the best team player ever. Troy didnt draw up plays int he huddle, Favre does. Troy won those games. Troy doesnt/didnt have 4 INT games, Favre does.

He is Hall of Fame bound.
Roger>Troy>White>Meredith ....> QC> all the Qbs ont he current roster. It isnt that hard really.

 

[jterrell]

JTerrell mewed:



This is an oft uttered comment by the Defenders of the Flake. Meant to justify the sub-par play by the Tongue that Led the Cowboys.

The real fallacy here ignores that every offense has the same throws.

Outs, posts, slants (except for Dallas), crossing routes.

They all are comprised of throwing a ball to a spot on the field that your receivers are running toward.

The idea that one offense is so drastically different than another, therefore the quarterback is hamstrung because they are different is illogical in this regard.

The terminology is different. There may be plays more favored in one than another.

But the reads of defenses does not change. Nor does throwing a ball to a spot where you expect your receiver to be.

Since Carter is such a textbook guy that he studies ALL off-season, then terminology shouldn't be a problem for him.

Does this mean a quarterback can excell in his first year of a system and learn everything?

Probably not.

But said system doesn't cause a quarterback to throw wobbly passes, interceptions, one-hoppers, and make poor decisions when the ball should be tossed into the first row of the stands.

Neither does a runningback. Which is the second mis-conception by those who kneal at the alter of Spit-Cup Carter.

Stop the excuses.

Ahh typical nonsense from too deep.

All this was a waste of hot air.

Its a simple fact that QBs get better when playing in the same system. QC will likely be better this year than last. It isnt an excuse it is a fact. Argue it on a factual basis if you want.

Dont you have to go help Hutch pack?

 

[blindzebra]

Ahh typical nonsense from too deep.

All this was a waste of hot air.

Its a simple fact that QBs get better when playing in the same system. QC will likely be better this year than last. It isnt an excuse it is a fact. Argue it on a factual basis if you want.

Dont you have to go help Hutch pack?

My that was not acting like a 3rd grader, now was it?

 

[Doomsday101]

********? Oh, you figure if we just got another Aikman, we will automatically win? I know you are a smarter football person than that.
And you want to say I'm being ********. Another aikman would need the same things that the first aikman had to succeed, because that second aikman willhave the same exact problems as well as the good things.

No, I will not avoid your posts, you post some good debatable things. You leave a lot of things to be debated in your posts.

but they are good things, and people like myself that just doesn't see that things like Aikman is great as a cut and dried subject will debate with you. There are reasons and players that helped Aikman to become great.

Again and it seems so many have a problem understanding teams win games not individuals. Did Troy and the Cowboys need all those weapons to win the Super Bowls? Of course they did just as Roger needed Tony D., Pearson, Hill and Dupree. Winning is a team achievement. When watching how an individual performs you look at the skills he brings. For Carter he has an alright arm but nothing special, he does not run worth a damn but is very good at escaping the initial rush but once he get past that rush he has no fricken clue as to what he should do with the ball, even Parcells had commented on the fact that if your going to run the pull the ball down and run if your going to pass then you need to find the open man quickly or else throw the ball away. Carter does neither he hesitates way to long and either the defenders come up quickly on him to prevent any type of run or the waits too long looking for the open man that the secondary is able to react and gets back to what was an open man. Lastly comparing Roger athletic ability to Carters? You have got to be kidding; Carter is no where close to Roger's athletic ability.

 

[Doomsday101]

YAWWNNN.
We have been through this ad nauseum.

Troy was a great QB. He was also a system QB. It isnt an insult, its a compliment. Its why Jimmy called him the best team player ever. Troy didnt draw up plays int he huddle, Favre does. Troy won those games. Troy doesnt/didnt have 4 INT games, Favre does.

He is Hall of Fame bound.
Roger>Troy>White>Meredith ....> QC> all the Qbs ont he current roster. It isnt that hard really.

Favre does? sorry no he didn't Mike Holgram called the plays in GB. As I said Troy like any QB runs the system that they are in be it the west coast, run and shoot or any other offensive system that is out there. In the big games Troy stepped up his play to another level and the numbers are right there to prove it.

 

[aikemirv]

Danny White go to the stats - was as good as Aikman and Staubach. All people remember are Super Bowl Victories. Quincy's legacy will be just that. Believe you me if Quincy wins a Super Bowl or two, he is automatically elevated to that class. No questions asked. If he flames out he's the next Hogeboom, Pelluer.

With Parcells and this team as constructed, its not too far fetched at all.

Oh good, we can now end all of the debate about who the best players are. We just go to the stats. Thats it.

E Smith IS the best RB of all time. There is no argument any more!

Marino is the best QB ever. - NO more arguments allowed.

Quincy sucks - just look at the stats - NO more arguments allowed.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Oh good, we can now end all of the debate about who the best players are. We just go to the stats. Thats it.

E Smith IS the best RB of all time. There is no argument any more!

Marino is the best QB ever. - NO more arguments allowed.

Quincy sucks - just look at the stats - NO more arguments allowed.

I asked this previously but don't believe it was ever answered.

The belief that White was as good is, IMO, not accurate.

Here are the statistics of both Danny White and Troy Aikman as best I can find.

Danny White (13 Seasons) W/L 67-35

Att 2950/Comp 1761, Yards 21959, TDs 155, INTs 132, Comp% 59.7.


Troy Aikman (12 Seasons) W/L 101-68

Att 3218/Comp 5217, Yards 36791, TDs 188. INTs 158, Comp% 61.7.

To me, these numbers are not close. If you discount playoff performmance and Superbowl wins etc., you still have to conclude that Aikman was a much better QB then White IMO. Really not even close in my mind but you be the judge.

 

[BHendri5]

Again and it seems so many have a problem understanding teams win games not individuals. Did Troy and the Cowboys need all those weapons to win the Super Bowls? Of course they did just as Roger needed Tony D., Pearson, Hill and Dupree. Winning is a team achievement. When watching how an individual performs you look at the skills he brings. For Carter he has an alright arm but nothing special, he does not run worth a damn but is very good at escaping the initial rush but once he get past that rush he has no fricken clue as to what he should do with the ball, even Parcells had commented on the fact that if your going to run the pull the ball down and run if your going to pass then you need to find the open man quickly or else throw the ball away. Carter does neither he hesitates way to long and either the defenders come up quickly on him to prevent any type of run or the waits too long looking for the open man that the secondary is able to react and gets back to what was an open man. Lastly comparing Roger athletic ability to Carters? You have got to be kidding; Carter is no where close to Roger's athletic ability.

Now you are being just plain silly, Staubach was an athletic guy, but he had now where near the athletic ability that Carter has, Not even close, Now I understand you hating on Carter and everything But Dude?

the word Impossible is a word that I hate, but there is no other word to use in this case, No way in Heck he was more athletic, That's just like saying Smarty Jones would have beaten Secretariat or Seattle Slew, Roger was gifted, but not that gifted.


You can come back at me with a response if you want, I'll not respond any more on that part of the debate, I'll bow out after you said that, whew!!!! that was a crucial statement.

 

[Doomsday101]

I asked this previously but don't believe it was ever answered.

The belief that White was as good is, IMO, not accurate.

Here are the statistics of both Danny White and Troy Aikman as best I can find.

Danny White (13 Seasons) W/L 67-35

Att 2950/Comp 1761, Yards 21959, TDs 155, INTs 132, Comp% 59.7.


Troy Aikman (12 Seasons) W/L 101-68

Att 3218/Comp 5217, Yards 36791, TDs 188. INTs 158, Comp% 61.7.

To me, these numbers are not close. If you discount playoff performmance and Superbowl wins etc., you still have to conclude that Aikman was a much better QB then White IMO. Really not even close in my mind but you be the judge.

I agree I don't think White was the same talent level of Troy but I do consider White to be a very good QB for us, up until he broke his wrist.

 

[blindzebra]

Now you are being just plain silly, Staubach was an athletic guy, but he had now where near the athletic ability that Carter has, Not even close, Now I understand you hating on Carter and everything But Dude?

the word Impossible is a word that I hate, but there is no other word to use in this case, No way in Heck he was more athletic, That's just like saying Smarty Jones would have beaten Secretariat or Seattle Slew, Roger was gifted, but not that gifted.


You can come back at me with a response if you want, I'll not respond any more on that part of the debate, I'll bow out after you said that, whew!!!! that was a crucial statement.

Again this is based on WHAT? YOUR BIASED OPINION.

 

[Doomsday101]

Now you are being just plain silly, Staubach was an athletic guy, but he had now where near the athletic ability that Carter has, Not even close, Now I understand you hating on Carter and everything But Dude?

the word Impossible is a word that I hate, but there is no other word to use in this case, No way in Heck he was more athletic, That's just like saying Smarty Jones would have beaten Secretariat or Seattle Slew, Roger was gifted, but not that gifted.


You can come back at me with a response if you want, I'll not respond any more on that part of the debate, I'll bow out after you said that, whew!!!! that was a crucial statement.

I don't hate Carter but you have got to be high to think Carter has better athletic skills than Roger. Roger was better at running the ball and a lot better at passing. Carter does not come close to Rogers ability. As for your horse comparison I would say Carter is more like Mr. Ed while Roger would be Secretariat