What my gut (and all the articles) tell me about the O line

[ravidubey]

I am not so sure we were perfect like is implied before the Adams injury. We were getting by with trickery and support from the backs and tight ends to bolster a right tackle who was getting by on guts alone.

This is a good point. Dallas' tackles seemed to pass block very well at home before Flozell went down and average on the road. Could be crowd noise combined with that dirt on the field at Oakland hurt them, but it was a remarkable dfference.

Against Philadelphia and Washington Bledsoe might not have been touched the blocking was that good, though a conservative gameplan vs Washington helped that.

 

[silver]

Rivera would be one highly paid backup in your scenario. I wouldn't bet the farm on it. Gurode has had a chance to win the starting right guard job for three years and hasn't got it done yet. I don't see anything that says he can do it now.

I saw a different player last year when he replaced Rivera. See the Carolina game for example. Of course the whole team played for crap in the last game vs the Rams when they knew they were eliminated for the playoffs. everyone including Gurode went through the motions. This year he'll seize one of the Guards spots as if his NFL life depended on it (which it does). Rivera may be an expensive backup but BP likes old hold the fort type guys like Everson Walls at one point in time.

 

[Alexander]

Against Philadelphia and Washington Bledsoe might not have been touched the blocking was that good, though a conservative gameplan vs Washington helped that.

And both games were at home. Strong point.

I think the Oakland game is a great example that things were not just perfect with Adams in there. Allen got dominated by Warren Sapp and we could not keep Bledsoe upright. We also struggled to control Tommy Kelly who had a big day as well.

 

[Alexander]

I saw a different player last year when he replaced Rivera. See the Carolina game for example. Of course the whole team played for crap in the last game vs the Rams when they Bknew they were eliminated for the playoffs. everyone including Gurode went through the motions. This year he'll seize one of the Guards spots as if his NFL life depended on it (which it does). Rivera may be an expensive backup but BP likes old hold the fort type guys like Everson Walls at one point in time.

I can see why you could get excited by the Carolina game, but that's just one game. His body of work in his entire career has demonstrated he cannot hold down the job and is always replaceable. I don't consider Gurode superior to a healthy albeit old Rivera. I cannot even say with complete conviction that he was better than an injured Rivera last year.

 

[burmafrd]

If someone is having a good game against us, you can usually adjust and compensate. Or if one of ours is having a bad game, the same thing. Its when more then one happens - THAT is when the wheels fall off.
the thing with early last year- and we were all talking about it- was that while the pass protection was good, the running game was in trouble from the start. The run blocking WAS NEVER there with any consistency at all- untill Carolina. The Philthy blowout was close; but other then that it was at best non descript and at worse pathetic.

 

[gbrittain]

Up untill the cap started to force teams to let more expensive vets go there were more older O linemen around. So my point is still valid.

Not sure if what you say is correct or not in regards to there being more older offensive lineman prior to the cap or not. However, if that is correct as you say there is another point to ponder.

The NFL salary cap began in 1994. Someone who was 34 years old back in 1994 would have been drafted somewhere around 1982. The players a few years older than 34 would have been drafted in the late 70s.

The size of NFL lineman have increased dramatically since the 70s and 80s. Their bodies are experiencing a lot more stress now. Take into account that the lineman they are facing every Sunday have gotten bigger and faster as well.

I would say no matter how you slice it 34 is old for an NFL lineman in this era.

I hope that Rivera bounces back to Pro Bowl form, but history is not on his side at this point.

 

[31smackdown]

There is always going to be a problem when you lose your best lineman, especially your LT. It causes a whole ripple effect. Rivera was weak in the beginning of the year, Petiti was just a rookie and then hurt his ankle halfway through the season which severly limited him, for the rest of the year, IMO. LA was poor when he was not getting his hands on the guy in front of him, he could not adjust to quick inside moves and he rarely made a n effective block at the second level, due to his lack of mobility, speed, etc..

I think with a full off-season for Petiti, a fully healthy Rivera, Flo back and allegedly working really hard in the off-season, plus Fabini and Kosier.. and who knows where Al Johnson and Gurode will pan out this year, also Peterman and Columbo as unknowns this line should be at least a notch improved over what we had before Flozell went out last year.. which I think was good enough.. the two tight end set might help a little as well.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Everything I have heard says the Hotel is doing fine and will be physically 100%. Up untill that injury he had played YEARS without missing a game- so he is NOT injury prone. His injury is not a reoccurring one like a Shoulder or a back. So He should be fine. Question is will he play as well as he did in 2003? I think that the chance at being a top team will help motivate him.
so I believe that LT is not a problem - of course we are counting on no bad injury here, but THAT is reasonable.

even if he doesn't play up to the performance of the '03 season, he was still pretty good in '04 and '05, evidenced by our line when he was out for 8 games last year

Kosier- the biggest mystery on the line. Very versatile player who has not been allowed to stay at one position and settle down. BP believes that he can be good at the Guard slot. The number of teams that were after him and the speed at which we signed him are good signs. I am cautiously optimistic that this will not be a downgrade from the powerfull but immobile LA.

Kosier's mobility and quickness is the one thing that will make him a DEFINITE, and maybe huge, upgrade over LA

Therefore I submit that the line will be better then it was last year. Just how much better depends on how well they work together.

agreed, continuity of an Oline is something that's largely overlooked in these discussions, we shall see how the Oline gells this year

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Teams do not rotate offensive lineman so unless Flo gets hurt again no one is. As for backups they will be competing for the job and I hope to see a good battle take place for that job.

you're right, but in the event that Flo should go down, IMO, Fabini will slide to LT and Pettiti will step into the RT slot

 

[Bob Sacamano]

One little comment from Parcells last week that I didn't see mentioned a lot was that he wanted to run more "scheme things" on the O line. That means zone blocking.

And that's one reason I think the line and Kosier will be better -- because we finally have a group of agile, quicker O-linemen who actually should be able to work together. A line with mismatches like the smaller, quicker Rivera and and the plodding Allen never made much sense... It kind of gave us the worst of both worlds. That shouldn't be the case as much this year.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

I saw a different player last year when he replaced Rivera. See the Carolina game for example. Of course the whole team played for crap in the last game vs the Rams when they knew they were eliminated for the playoffs. everyone including Gurode went through the motions. This year he'll seize one of the Guards spots as if his NFL life depended on it (which it does). Rivera may be an expensive backup but BP likes old hold the fort type guys like Everson Walls at one point in time.

but the thing is, Parcells thinks he makes for a better C than OG, remember the comment he made last year about his biggest mistake here being leaving Gurode at OG?

 

[sago1]

I'll take Adams back and be grateful (whether it's the 03 or 05 version). At this point Fabini probably penciled in as RT and Adams backup at LT should Adams go down. We're all hoping both Colombo & Pettiti can really compete & become solid to good backup OTs. Should one of them even win RT job by playing well & beating out Fabini, I'll probably have a heart attack.

Assuming Adams & Fabini start, it will be real interesting to see whether Colombo or Pettiti can play behind Adams. When drafted, Colombo was viewed as legit player at both positions but he's only played 6 1/2 games before injury and they were at RT, so he's got no NFL experience at LT. Pettiti wasn't drafted til the end and has only played at RT; he's also got no NFL experience at LT. Parcells will probably try them both at RT and LT to see what each has got; we'll probably get an inkling either thru Parcells statements/media reporting whose playing where & if not, we will certainly see what's going off in 2nd quarter and later in game as to whether each is playing. In any case I certainly hope both Colombo and Pettiti spend time at LT as well as RT. Don't want a repeat of last year where Tucker started at LT although he had never played there.

 

[silver]

but the thing is, Parcells thinks he makes for a better C than OG, remember the comment he made last year about his biggest mistake here being leaving Gurode at OG?

you're right, but...
doesn't he like to play his top 5 linemen?
most coaches do. that's why BP moved Pettiti and Jacob Rogers to RT. His only other options were Tucker and Vollers. so in a perfect world yes, gurode stays at C and has a career there, but if your top 5 include 2 centers, then one of them plays elsewhere, in this case RG.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

you're right, but...
doesn't he like to play his top 5 linemen?

he does, but it's gonna be kinda hard for Gurode to be one of the top OGs when he's mainly working at C

 

[silver]

he does, but it's gonna be kinda hard for Gurode to be one of the top OGs when he's mainly working at C

it all depends on Rivera. If he plays like 2004 then yes, Gurode sits. If he plays anything like he did in 2005 then Gurode starts. How's that for a compromise?

 

[Bob Sacamano]

it all depends on Rivera. If he plays like 2004 then yes, Gurode sits. If he plays anything like he did in 2005 then Gurode starts. How's that for a compromise?

I would want that, but I'm just saying Gurode is concentrating more on C than he is OG

 

[Vertigo_17]

One little comment from Parcells last week that I didn't see mentioned a lot was that he wanted to run more "scheme things" on the O line. That means zone blocking.

And that's one reason I think the line and Kosier will be better -- because we finally have a group of agile, quicker O-linemen who actually should be able to work together. A line with mismatches like the smaller, quicker Rivera and and the plodding Allen never made much sense... It kind of gave us the worst of both worlds. That shouldn't be the case as much this year.

Let's hope the zone scheme goes better than it did when Coslett (and whatever or OLine Coordinator's name was) tried to implement it. That was a disaster to put it mildly.

Seriously, I agree that it could be much better now that we have mobile linemen.

 

[burmafrd]

As I recall coslett tried to put a full blown zone blocking scheme in and LA led the charge in refusing to go along with it.

 

[lspain1]

I think the wild card in the depth discussion is Columbo. Here is a first round talent that is coming off of injury. If he does well then we actually might look pretty good at the tackles, both starting and in depth.

From a performance standpoint, the center of the line seems more of a question mark than the tackle position. If Rivera has another poor year, our depth there looks like a real problem. The durability question is paramount here, because this line needs a leader. I would like Rivera to become the guy.

I also hope we do not have to go through training camp not knowing who the starters are until the end. I believe our O-Line must gel and learn to work together as a unit. Rotating folks in and out does not seem to me to be a recipe for success as we are going on the road for a game or three in the first half.

 

[yazzmode621]

You guys have great potential at the offensive line. For example, this guy is going to be great.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEGbk5ILBII&search=Kyle%20Kosier