What's more important in a football player?

[Rack]

I will grant that by the strict definitions you are correct. However, I would submit that the two are not so far apart. And inasmuch as your own definition describes instinct as inborn it would seem to defeat your argument that instincts can be learned.

Nice catch. Didn't notice that myself.



I think he's just getting a bit off topic with the "True" meaning of Instincts. He knows what we mean in relation to football. Debating the true meaning and trying to find a "correct" term would be a waste of time.

Let's just say that in relation to football, the word "Instinct" is slang for "Feel for the game or awareness". How's that, fellas?

Cuz if we don't come to that agreement, we're gonna end up way OT.

 

[JackMagist]

Nice catch. Didn't notice that myself.



I think he's just getting a bit off topic with the "True" meaning of Instincts. He knows what we mean in relation to football. Debating the true meaning and trying to find a "correct" term would be a waste of time.

Let's just say that in relation to football, the word "Instinct" is slang for "Feel for the game or awareness". How's that, fellas?

Cuz if we don't come to that agreement, we're gonna end up way OT.

Oh hell Rack...I'm sitting here drinking Crown and Water and enjoying a good debate. As far as I'm concerned we can get as far off topic at they want to go.

But you're right. It is a "feel for the game" and we could go on all night with nit-picking the semantics.

Of course it wouldn't bother me to go on all night...until I run out of Crown

 

[Rack]

Oh hell Rack...I'm sitting here drinking Crown and Water and enjoying a good debate. As far as I'm concerned we can get as far off topic at they want to go.

But you're right. It is a "feel for the game" and we could go on all night with nit-picking the semantics.

Of course it wouldn't bother me to go on all night...until I run out of Crown

:laugh2:

I got to go play a game in San Antonio tomorrow. Won't be back till about 24 hours from now. I have a feeling I'm gonna have a lot of catching up to do when I get back. lol


It's funny the people (all 2 or 3 of them) arguing so hard in this, yet the voting is overwhelmingly in favor of "Instincts".

 

[Haley94]

Actually I like "awarness" better. One can develop awareness thu experience. The motivation comes into play because most of the development proccess is lerned thru negative experiences or the fear of those negative experiences. one must be motivated to work thru those experinces and master ones craft. The motivation gives one the stamina to go thru the proccess.

Dat recongnized the play, not because he was born with this ability but because he learned from a negative experience in the past or the fear of a negative exerience from watching film.

My point is: The word "instinct" is misused a lot in sports because it implies that these mental atributes are hard coded in the brain and not gained thru experience and study.

I will agree with you all on feel for the game. I just feel like debating, even though i think we agree on this in spirit

 

[Rack]

Actually I like "awarness" better. One can develop awareness thu experience. The motivation comes into play because most of the development proccess is lerned thru negative experiences or the fear of those negative experiences. one must be motivated to work thru those experinces and master ones craft. The motivation gives one the stamina to go thru the proccess.

Dat recongnized the play, not because he was born with this ability but because he learned from a negative experience in the past or the fear of a negative exerience from watching film.

My point is: The word "instinct" is misused a lot in sports because it implies that these mental atributes are hard coded in the brain and not gained thru experience and study.

Instincts is still a better word.


In any case, some players simply have a much higher level of "awareness" then others, and regardless of what you may think, it's not that easy to develop. A person with horrible instincts is never gonna end up with great instincts. Just isn't gonna happen. Just like a pro that runs a 4.7 is never gonna run a 4.3.

 

[Rack]

Actually I like "awarness" better. One can develop awareness thu experience. The motivation comes into play because most of the development proccess is lerned thru negative experiences or the fear of those negative experiences. one must be motivated to work thru those experinces and master ones craft. The motivation gives one the stamina to go thru the proccess.

Dat recongnized the play, not because he was born with this ability but because he learned from a negative experience in the past or the fear of a negative exerience from watching film.

My point is: The word "instinct" is misused a lot in sports because it implies that these mental atributes are hard coded in the brain and not gained thru experience and study.

I will agree with you all on feel for the game. I just feel like debating, even though i think we agree on this in spirit

seriously, dude, did you bother reading my whole post? You're arguing semantics. If you're gonna continue going OT, then it's pointless debating with you.

 

[JackMagist]

:laugh2:

I got to go play a game in San Antonio tomorrow. Won't be back till about 24 hours from now. I have a feeling I'm gonna have a lot of catching up to do when I get back. lol


It's funny the people (all 2 or 3 of them) arguing so hard in this, yet the voting is overwhelmingly in favor of "Instincts".

Yeah I think the guys arguing the other way have not really thought this through. For me it can be summed up with the Dat Nguyen / Levar Arrington examples. Instincts is why Dat went in the third round but in the end Bill Parcells called him "a football player" (about as high praise as Parcells can bestow) and would not trade him for Darren Howard. Whereas the difference between Levar Arrington and Lawrence Taylor is instincts; it is what makes one a hall of famer and the other unemployed.

 

[Haley94]

I'm done arguing. I think we agree. In fact ,like i said, we always agreed since i was one of the first people to vote "Instincts".

I just might have put it differently.

Highly motivated average athlete

vs

unmotivated superior athlete

obviously a highly motivated superior athlete can be a superstar

 

[JackMagist]

Actually I like "awarness" better. One can develop awareness thu experience. The motivation comes into play because most of the development proccess is lerned thru negative experiences or the fear of those negative experiences. one must be motivated to work thru those experinces and master ones craft. The motivation gives one the stamina to go thru the proccess.

Dat recongnized the play, not because he was born with this ability but because he learned from a negative experience in the past or the fear of a negative exerience from watching film.

My point is: The word "instinct" is misused a lot in sports because it implies that these mental atributes are hard coded in the brain and not gained thru experience and study.

I will agree with you all on feel for the game. I just feel like debating, even though i think we agree on this in spirit

We can go with awareness but that is not really the issue. The issue (as it now stands) is the source of the awareness. Is it learned response or is it instinct (agreeing that instinct is a natural attribute that you either have or do not have) is the question. In my experience these types of responses are natural and cannot be learned simply through experience. Though experience will help the very best players will instinctively (intuitively) know the proper responses long before they can be learned.

 

[JackMagist]

I'm done arguing. I think we agree. In fact ,like i said, we always agreed since i was one of the first people to vote "Instincts".

I just might have put it differently.

Highly motivated average athlete

vs

unmotivated superior athlete

obviously a highly motivated superior athlete can be a superstar

Well it has been fun.

I can't argue with the motivated issue...I like the highly motivated, instinctive, superior athlete for my team though

 

[Rack]

Motivation has nothing to do with instincts.



There's been plenty of motivated football players that just weren't good football players. A term for these type of players is "Workout Warrior".


Obviously these workout warriors have to be motivated to accomplish their athletic feats. But that doesn't effect their insticts.


And jsut to be clear, I'm not saying that every person that does good in workouts is a workout warrior. A workout warrior refers to players that perform good in short, but not in pads.

 

[Hostile]

Without a doubt in my mind I answered this poll that instincts are more important. Let me explain why.

First of all every one of these guys is already an athlete. Some have freakish skills to do certain things. This is what people are calling ahtleticism.

Instincts are about more than that. Let me give you a couple of examples.

Offensive linemen and for the most part Defensive Linemen are never going to be track stars. They simply aren't the thoroughbreds. Some will argue that they are the power lifters. Okay, fine. Does the ability to lift weights alone make you a football player? No. If it did Brock Lesnar would have made the Minnesota Vikings. There is no doubt the kid has freakish athletic ability. Some will say steroid induced, and that's fine. He did not have the instincts for the game.

Now let's go to the Track Stars. How about Renaldo Nehemiah. Gave football a try and wasn't bad, but he really wasn't good either. This guy was an elite athlete in every sense of the word. He was fast, quick, and a very bright young man. How come he never set the NFL on fire like Bob Hayes did? Quite simply he didn't have the instincts for the game.

Let's look at our new kid on the block, Terrell Owens. Some will point to his physical condition and training and say he is proof that athleticism is a difference maker. I don't agree. Owens is making a similar impact on the game that Michael Irvin did. However, Owens is probably more physically gifted than Michael was. Why has Michael had more team success? Quite simply because he has true understanding of the chemistry of the game. That is the essence of instincts. Stories abound about Michael challenging teammates to play harder than he did that day. He already had the mindset of a champion. All of his athletic ability in the world didn't make him a Champion. His shear determination did. That is instincts.

All the athletic ability in the world can't make you good. Instincts can. The truly great players combine both to become legendary figures. I will always point to Roger Staubach as the perfect example. Was he a superior athlete? Oh hell yeah. When I think of the 5 youthful years he gave up to serve his country it almost makes me cry. He was so spectacular to watch he was almost human poetry. As amazing as his overall skills were, it was his mind for the game that elevated him to the heights he achieved. He simply made the game look easy. That is instincts. The ability to sense something and change the course of the game by overcoming it. Montana had this. Elway had this. Roger exemplified it.

Every player on that field has athleticism. They are athletes already by sheer virtue of what they have done. People talk about Emmitt's vision or his heart. That is instincts. His instincts made him great. He was already an athlete.

Every year there are guys who are freakish athletes that teams take a chance on. For example Mike Mamula of the Eagles. Every year there's a guy who isn't near the athlete Mamula was who keep on playing the game because he has great instincts. Looking at the Cowboys past again the perfect example is Bill Bates. Was he freakishly good like a Ronnie Lott? No, but his instincts kept him in the NFL for a lot of years. Meanwhile a superior athlete like Rod Hill had his career over in the blink of an eye.

The stuff between the ears and the thing beating in the chest are about instincts. They are what separate the athlete from the legend. I don't believe anyone can show me a truly successful football player who is a great athlete, a difference maker on the field, who doesn't have instincts for the game. On the other hand there are dozens of guys making it on guile and heart. That is instincts.

 

[Haley94]

The source of awareness? Now this is getting interesting.

The brain is basically a pattern recognition system that is highly adaptive to it's environment. If you put a person in a survival mode. the brain will pick out relevant information based on its intention of self-preservation. the military uses this tactic when training. the pain-pleasure is amplified and new patterns are introduced under stress and in a repetitive way. When that stress is encountered in the real world you will often hear the term instincts took over. But what really happened is that they fell back on their training and where highly motivated (survival) to do so. they didn't over think, rather they reacted to their environment with their pattern. the more war experience they have they more "battle harden" they become adding new solutions to help the survive and achieve their aims.

Football is very similar. In the moment of battle one falls back on their pattern recognition skills. they anticipate the next move based on their internal database of similar patterns. they become aware. But the key here is that they are not motivated like soldier. it is not life and death for football player. they can become distracted or suffer from mental lapses easier thus they lose their ability to recognize patterns not because of their wiring but because of thier motivation to "trust' their wiring. they may start to doubt themselves and then they are a second behind and we all say they lack instincts.

in both cases however fear can nutralize the training. if the fear is perceived to be great the brain actually starts to shut down. the blood-leaves the outer skin and muscle layers in anticipation of attack and so on.

however, there could another explanation to the issue of intuition or awarness. but it gets more esoteric.

 

[Haley94]

Motivation has nothing to do with instincts.



There's been plenty of motivated football players that just weren't good football players. A term for these type of players is "Workout Warrior".


Obviously these workout warriors have to be motivated to accomplish their athletic feats. But that doesn't effect their insticts.


And jsut to be clear, I'm not saying that every person that does good in workouts is a workout warrior. A workout warrior refers to players that perform good in short, but not in pads.

yeah but the motivation to be a body builder is different than the motivation to be a football player. Motivation is the drive towards experience in any particular field.

 

[Haley94]

goodnight! It's been fun chating with you all. Like i said i think we agree for most part. I really enjoy and respect all of your opinions. Although i don't post much, I listen to you all a great deal.

 

[jackrussell]

this is just sad...we have people calling EMMITT and Montana stiffs!!! yeah they may have a great football IQ but to say they are not athletic is a joke!!!

Who said that?

Do tell.

 

[RealCowboyfan]

Instincts<hands down... with instincts he knows how to do something and when to do it... Lawrence Taylor had instinct...

 

[Rack]

Who said that?

Do tell.

I was wondering the same thing.

 

[bobbie brewskie]

since athlete is the root word for athleticism im going to say a better athlete has athleticism over instinct . . .

 

[Billy Bullocks]

i'll take athleticism, every year in the draft there is a guy who "isnt the most athletic guy on the field but has a lot of heart", that guy is never any good in the NFL. I'll take the "freaks" like merriman, kearse and matt jones.

Ill take "Slow" Emmitt Smith and Jerry Rice before Randle Williams and Ki-Jana Carter all day