Where does Ware rank w/ the top 10 defensive players in the national football league

[Stautner]

Are you watching the other passrushers you compare him to as much or as closely? It seems earlier you admitted you weren't.

Merely watching Ware play isn't enough to make the claims you've made.

It just SEEMS that I admitted it? Was there a glaze over your eyes as you were reading?

Of course I don't watch every player on every team as close - I SAID THAT. But there are 2 other factors.

1. You aren't admitting that the same standard applies to you - you admitted you don't watch others as closely either, yet somehow you still act as if that doesn't have any affect on your opinion and that it only affects mine.

2. I've been watching the NFL for about 42 years now. This aint my first rodeo, and it's ridiculous to suggest I have no point of comparison.

 

[superpunk]

I feel like someone should be spouting the idea that Charles Haley didn't light it up with ridiculous sacks but he got pressure literally every play, and then wondering why Ware can't live up to that standard.

 

[AdamJT13]

By the way, are you actually arguing that Ware is on the same level as Reggie White and Lawrence Taylor?

Hello? Did you even read what I wrote? Or do you not understand the words "nobody has put Ware in the class of Taylor and White just yet"?

I promise you, stats alone are not why I view Taylor and White as better players, and why the any fair minded, non homer, knowledgeable football fan would as well. What I am talking about, and have been talking about, is the ability to be consistently disruptive from the first snap of the game to the last, and for your presence to completely alter the opponents game plan. That's what White and Taylor and a handful of others over time could do

Stats or not, you again show a complete lack of perspective. Those guys WERE NOT "consistently disruptive from the first snap of the game to the last." That's something that fans like you dream up about players in the past -- you know, like how a lot of fans think Charles Haley was some unstoppable terror on every single play.

Even if you completely disregard stats (which are nothing more than quantifiable evidence of what occurs on the field), you can go back and watch plenty of games from those guys' careers where they were not nearly as disruptive as they were in your imagination. And there were plenty of games when they simply were not productive -- no sacks, no big plays, no tackles for loss, no turnovers forced, hardly any tackles or assists, etc.

Of course, your entire argument is based on rejecting any actual evidence and sticking to your own "opinion," so it's not like you actually care about the truth. It's all about your own perception.

 

[superpunk]

I feel like someone should be spouting the idea that Charles Haley didn't light it up with ridiculous sacks but he got pressure literally every play, and then wondering why Ware can't live up to that standard.

That's something that fans like you dream up about players in the past -- you know, like how a lot of fans think Charles Haley was some unstoppable terror on every single play.

[youtube]V-OYKd8SVrI[/youtube]

 

[theogt]

1. You aren't admitting that the same standard applies to you - you admitted you don't watch others as closely either, yet somehow you still act as if that doesn't have any affect on your opinion and that it only affects mine.

The very same standard applies to me -- I'll admit that, of course. I stated already that I do not watch the other players so I have to rely on statistics. You don't rely on either. Thus, your opinions are derived from ignorance.

It's one thing to say, "The statistics don't tell the whole story and I don't watch all the film, so I can't throw out an opinion with reasonable certainty."

It's quite another to say, "The statistics don't tell the whole story and I don't watch all the film, but I'll give you my opinion anyway."

The latter is wifully basing your opinion on ignorance.

2. I've been watching the NFL for about 42 years now. This aint my first rodeo, and it's ridiculous to suggest I have no point of comparison.

Well, you just admitted you didn't watch the other players. So are you now trying to suggest otherwise?

 

[Stautner]

I feel like someone should be spouting the idea that Charles Haley didn't light it up with ridiculous sacks but he got pressure literally every play, and then wondering why Ware can't live up to that standard.

Where do people come up with this overxaggerated crap? I'm cool with people having a different opinion than me as long as they can be intelligent and rational about it. Nobody said a thing about pressure "literally every play" - that's just BS designed to create a false argument.

The funny thing is what you are arguing actually fits with me more, because I'm actually the one who is talking down the folks who act as if Ware does this.

All I am saying is that those who overblow Ware into this kind of monster player are overexaggerating, so its funny that you think you are arguing against me.

I have talked about consistency, which is a relative term. The point being that there is a difference between the kind of truly elite player who gets to or near the QB in some way (whether sacks, hits, or pressures) on enough of a consistent basis over the course of the game that they are always a worry for the QB throughout the game, and the player who is a notch below, but still a top player who isn't as much of a consistent threat, but still gets numbers by making those kinds of plays in spurts.

I will say this. In 2007 & 2008 Ware was very much that kind of player. Teams game planned around him in a big way. I don't see that they do that now, and I think that as teams have learned more about how to play Ware they are less concerned about having a game plan that accounts for him on every play. Again, that doesn't mean he's not an outstanding player, but some still put him on that unrealistic pedestal where they believe he has that kind of Reggie White/Lawrence Taylor type impact.

 

[TheCoolFan]

Ware used to be an even bigger beast from 06-08. I blame Anthony Spencer

 

[Eskimo]

Ware used to be an even bigger beast from 06-08. I blame Anthony Spencer

Alternatively, we can blame the GM for letting Ellis walk without having another pass rusher to plug in the lineup. These guys can be rented at the end of their careers but Jerry hasn't pursued that avenue yet.

If we don't bring in an impact passrusher in the draft with the first pick, I do hope we pick up a vet in FA to plug in at LDE for the nickel.

 

[JohnsKey19]

Ware used to be an even bigger beast from 06-08. I blame Anthony Spencer

Or the loss of Ellis.

 

[Stautner]

The very same standard applies to me -- I'll admit that, of course. I stated already that I do not watch the other players so I have to rely on statistics. You don't rely on either. Thus, your opinions are derived from ignorance.

It's one thing to say, "The statistics don't tell the whole story and I don't watch all the film, so I can't throw out an opinion with reasonable certainty."

It's quite another to say, "The statistics don't tell the whole story and I don't watch all the film, but I'll give you my opinion anyway."

The latter is wifully basing your opinion on ignorance.

Well, you just admitted you didn't watch the other players. So are you now trying to suggest otherwise?

What is it that you are arguing - that I am off base by calling him one of the better defensive players in the NFL? Are you insisting that I call him the Supreme God of NFL defensive players? What?

The fact is that I rely on watching the NFL - watching the Cowboys and Ware, watching other teams and games and players even if not as closely as Ware, and watching the game for 42 years including every pass rusher from Deacon Jones to Carl Eller to Harvey Martin to Reggie White to DeMarcus Ware. Your continued insistence that I have no point of reference is ridiculous to the point of blatant absurdity.

If you really think that gets trumped by an internet stats guy who is probably more in tune with Madden football than real football and who probably never played the game beyond 3rd grad flag football, then you need to turn the word ignorance toward yourself.

 

[JohnsKey19]

Alternatively, we can blame the GM for letting Ellis walk without having another pass rusher to plug in the lineup. These guys can be rented at the end of their careers but Jerry hasn't pursued that avenue yet.

If we don't bring in an impact passrusher in the draft with the first pick, I do hope we pick up a vet in FA to plug in at LDE for the nickel.

You beat me to it.

So let's say we draft the guy from UNC and he appears to be the real deal. Can we afford to scrap Spencer altogether? Can he move inside?

 

[theogt]

What is it that you are arguing - that I am off base by calling him one of the better defensive players in the NFL? Are you insisting that I call him the Supreme God of NFL defensive players? What?

The fact is that I rely on watching the NFL - watching the Cowboys and Ware, watching other teams and games and players even if not as closely as Ware, and watching the game for 42 years including every pass rusher from Deacon Jones to Carl Eller to Harvey Martin to Reggie White to DeMarcus Ware. Your continued insistence that I have no point of reference is ridiculous to the point of blatant absurdity.

If you really think that gets trumped by an internet stats guy who is probably more in tune with Madden football than real football and who probably never played the game beyond 3rd grad flag football, then you need to turn the word ignorance toward yourself.

In case you're confused or can't follow the conversation, here's my first reply to your post which stemmed this entire conversation. Hopefully this will get you back on track.

http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3767261&postcount=74

 

[Stautner]

Ware used to be an even bigger beast from 06-08. I blame Anthony Spencer

Alternatively, we can blame the GM for letting Ellis walk without having another pass rusher to plug in the lineup. These guys can be rented at the end of their careers but Jerry hasn't pursued that avenue yet.

If we don't bring in an impact passrusher in the draft with the first pick, I do hope we pick up a vet in FA to plug in at LDE for the nickel.

Without a doubt the lack of pass rushing help from other players hurts Ware to a degree. We do have the advantage of one of the best, if not the best, pass rushing NT in the game, but that doesn't completely make up for the lack of pass rushing help from the other OLB.

 

[Doomsday101]

You beat me to it.

So let's say we draft the guy from UNC and he appears to be the real deal. Can we afford to scrap Spencer altogether? Can he move inside?

I don't think Dallas will scrap him even if they do draft that position and at 260 I don't see him as a inside player

 

[theogt]

I don't think Dallas will scrap him even if they do draft that position and at 260 I don't see him as a inside player

Isn't next year a contract year for him?

Expect huge sack numbers.

 

[Doomsday101]

Isn't next year a contract year for him?

Expect huge sack numbers.

I think your right on both accounts. I'm very disappointed in Spencer this year he really looked like he was putting it together last season and to not pickup from there has left a bad taste in many fans mouth. It will be interesting to see who the next DC for the Cowboys will be and what he can do to get the most out of this group.

 

[Stautner]

In case you're confused or can't follow the conversation, here's my first reply to your post which stemmed this entire conversation. Hopefully this will get you back on track.

http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3767261&postcount=74

Great. The stats geek repeating previously presented stats - so what?

Again, is Romo a better QB than Aikman? Stats say so, so he must be, right? You have avoided that question like the plague.

And it still doesn't explain what you are arguing about.

Do you really have that much of a problem with me not agreeing with those who put Ware on some lofty perch high above mortal men?

Is it important that you convince me he is the reigning god of defensive football and not merely one of the top defensive players in the league as i have repeatedly said?

Are you really that concerned with whatever the incremental difference is between my view of Ware as one of the best, and the viewpoint that he is the best? Or is it that you don't view it as an incremental difference? Are you one of the one that considers Ware a defensive monster on the order of White and Taylor?

 

[Stautner]

I don't think Dallas will scrap him even if they do draft that position and at 260 I don't see him as a inside player

I don't know if it's the weight as much as the body build. He has the kind of tall, leaner build of an outside player and not the more compact build of an inside player.

I don't think they will scrap him either. He's been a disappointment as a pass rusher, but he is a decent all around player. He plays the run well, and can drop back in coverage pretty well.

 

[Doomsday101]

I don't know if it's the weight as much as the body build. He has the kind of tall, leaner build of an outside player and not the more compact build of an inside player.

I don't think they will scrap him either. He's been a disappointment as a pass rusher, but he is a decent all around player. He plays the run well, and can drop back in coverage pretty well.

If your talking ILB, I thought the poster was talking down lineman. I think Spencer is a DE/OLB I really do not see him playing another position.

 

[JohnsKey19]

I don't know if it's the weight as much as the body build. He has the kind of tall, leaner build of an outside player and not the more compact build of an inside player.

I don't think they will scrap him either. He's been a disappointment as a pass rusher, but he is a decent all around player. He plays the run well, and can drop back in coverage pretty well.

So if Quinn, a Ware-like freak, is on the board when we pick do you pass on him hoping Spencer suddenly explodes? I hope not.

I like Spencer for the reason you mentioned above. He's a decent all-around player. But he's not a pass rusher. We must add a threat to that opposite side of Ware.