Which OL will you prefer - our current one or the one in 1990's

[Aven8]

Thought Flozell got crap load of penalties?

He did, but he was a hell of a Tackle for over a decade as well!

 

[MichaelValentino]

Take Aikman out for a season, replace Emmitt with a bargain-bin RB, and it's hard to see three guys on any of those lines still making the Pro Bowl that year.

And then there's Collins.

Percy,

I first want to say I regard you as one of my favorite posters on this forum. I've been enlightened by things you've said numerous times. However, that being the case, I take exception to what you posted here.

Football is a team sport replete with symbiotic relationships. Great skill position players improve the recognition of their offensive linemates; great front fours improve the play of DBs; great corners earn their DEs coverage sacks; great wideouts make their QBs look better and vice versa.

When the 1978 Patriots set the all-time rushing record, did Sam Cunningham and Andy Johnson turn Leon Gray and John Hannah into All-Pros? When OJ Simpson ran for 2000 yards in 1973 did he make Reggie McKenzie and Joe DeLamiellure two of the best linemen of that era? Did Eric Dickerson turn Kent Hill, Doug Smith, Jackie Slater and Dennis Harrah into perennial Pro Bowlers? Did Joe Jacoby and Russ Grimm win multiple post season honors and nomination to the 1980s all decade team because of John Riggins? Did Walter Payton make Jimbo Covert an All Pro at left tackle, Mark Bortz and Tom Thayer Pro Bowlers at guard, and Jay Hilgenberg All Pro at center?

I think those guys named above were great linemen, and the running backs they opened holes for all the way to Canton owe a lot to them. Same for Emmitt and the guys who blocked for him.

Is Joe Montana recognized as the greatest QB of all time if he threw to Mike Sherrard as his primary WR and not Jerry Rice from 1985-1991? Probably so but the gap between him and no. 2 would be much closer. In any case, he would still be in the top three or four. How great would Johnny Unitas and Raymond Berry have been without the other? Still great, no doubt, but would they be recognized as among the best ever at their respective positions? Does Terry Bradshaw win Super Bowl X over the Cowboys if he had Golden Richards and Drew Pearson instead of Lynn Swann soaring high into the Miami sky that day?

I know you can pull out stats galore telling me how the Cowboys could not run the ball without Emmitt. I have a degree in engineering. I love numbers and equations and calculations as much as anyone. And while I would agree that the 1992-95 Cowboys would have had no success without Troy and Emmitt, had the Cowboys not had that great O-line during those years they would not be remembered today as the greatest team of that era despite the speed and depth on defense and the presence of three future HOFers at the key skill positions.

I've read comments above that make me shake my head: e.g., Nate Newton was not a good athlete; since Erik Williams never made it to the HOF because of his car wreck, his level of play is discounted; the 90s line lacked first round draft picks and therefore their talent level was less.

Nate Newton started at LG from 1992-98. He made six Pro Bowls over those seven seasons, as well as two first team All Pro nominations. John Madden, whom I regard as a greater football talent evaluator than even the best posters on this forum, often spoke of Newton's quick feet and nimbleness for a man his size. I recall Newton being able to root out massive and powerful men like William Perry (340 lbs with an 1100 lb leg press) or lead on sweeps and bury LBers. I loved Herb Scott in the 1970s, but Nate was better. Maybe Newton would not blow anyone away with his SPARQ if that was available 20-25 years ago, but the big guy could play and he could dominate. Madden saw that. I think Hudson Houck would agree, too.

Mark Stepnoski, the "runt of the litter," played at 265 lbs and benched 450 lbs coming out of Pitt. He was a sound technician in both the run game and in pass blocking. He needed help with larger nose tackles or DTs lined over him but he could get to the second level and hold his own in pass protection, giving Troy an intact pocket up the middle. Step was named to five consecutive Pro Bowls from 1992-96, was a 3x All Pro and was named to 2nd team behind Dermonti Dawson on the 1990s All Decade Team. When Step left, Ray Donaldson (6x Pro Bowl, including two with the Cowboys in 1995-96) filled in well. And Derek Kennard was a solid back-up at both C and G, and he started in SB XXX after Donaldson was injured.

As some others have said, Williams was the most dominant tackle of the 90s and on his way to Canton. He lost some lateral movement after his car wreck but the Big E was still good enough to make three Pro Bowls after he ruined his knee. Everyone knows he was not the same player after the accident, but he was that player for two of the Cowboys three SBs in the 90s and he was still at a Pro Bowl level in 95 when the Cowboys won their third. I know Tyron Smith is a terrific player but I would take Erik Williams any day over Smith. We are comparing here the Cowboys O-line in their heyday of the early-to-mid 90s, not the Cowboys line of the late 90s or not the Erik Williams that ended his NFL career in Baltimore. Give me the Erik Williams of 1992-95 over any offensive lineman on the current roster and over any current NFL lineman.

Since Larry Allen needs no discussion, I have saved the late Mark Tuinei for last. Tui did not receive the accolades of his linemates. He was a blue collar player on a glitz team, and he spent his career playing in the shadows cast by Willie Roaf, Gary Zimmerman, Richmond Webb, Jim Covert, Joe Jacoby, and of course, Anthony Munoz. Tui did win two Pro Bowl nominations during the SB years and he played admirably against Bruce Smith in both SBs. That, in itself, is noteworthy. When the experts list the best RDEs in the history of the game the only name above greats like Gino Marchetti and Lee Roy Selmon is Bruce Smith. Tui did not dominate Smith the way Williams dominated Reggie but in those SBs, especially XXVIII, Aikman had a pretty clean pocket and good backside protection. Tui is not Tyron Smith but he was still a good player.

Since some on this forum believe Tony Romo is better than Aikman and some think Dez is pretty much equal to Michael Irvin, maybe the current O-line will pave the way to another Lombardi trophy or two. Maybe then I'll concede this group is better than the 90s group. The hardware earns the rep. The Steel Curtain is one of the greatest front fours in NFL history, and many consider them to be the best - they have four Lombardi's to show for it. And while I think the Fearsome Foursome (Jones, Olsen, Grier, Lundy) was the most talented, the Steelers have the hardware to back the rep.

The Cowboys have the best run blocking O-line in the NFL and they are probably the best overall line in the game today. It's stocked with top draft choices, not 3rd rounders or free agents. But that 90s crew not only has a ton of awards in the form of Pro Bowl and All Pro nominations but three of those guys - Tui, Nate, Williams - have three rings. I'd love to see Fredbeard and crew get there. We all would. But right now, as a unit, I like the 90s line. That group, right now, is in the conversation along with some of the truly great lines from the 70s and 80s (Raiders of the 70s with three HOF linemen; Cardinals of the 70s; the Hogs of the 80s; and Rams of the 80s with multiple Pro Bowlers and All Pros) as the very best of all time.

Unfortunately, because of FA and injury, we never got to see Allen, Williams and Step play together for 7, 8 or 9 years at a high (healthy) level of play. Had we, I think the OP could have saved this thread for about five years and then begin it.

That is my $0.02.

 

[percyhoward]

Percy,

I first want to say I regard you as one of my favorite posters on this forum. I've been enlightened by things you've said numerous times. However, that being the case, I take exception to what you posted here.

Football is a team sport replete with symbiotic relationships. Great skill position players improve the recognition of their offensive linemates; great front fours improve the play of DBs; great corners earn their DEs coverage sacks; great wideouts make their QBs look better and vice versa.

When the 1978 Patriots set the all-time rushing record, did Sam Cunningham and Andy Johnson turn Leon Gray and John Hannah into All-Pros? When OJ Simpson ran for 2000 yards in 1973 did he make Reggie McKenzie and Joe DeLamiellure two of the best linemen of that era? Did Eric Dickerson turn Kent Hill, Doug Smith, Jackie Slater and Dennis Harrah into perennial Pro Bowlers? Did Joe Jacoby and Russ Grimm win multiple post season honors and nomination to the 1980s all decade team because of John Riggins? Did Walter Payton make Jimbo Covert an All Pro at left tackle, Mark Bortz and Tom Thayer Pro Bowlers at guard, and Jay Hilgenberg All Pro at center?

I think those guys named above were great linemen, and the running backs they opened holes for all the way to Canton owe a lot to them. Same for Emmitt and the guys who blocked for him.

Is Joe Montana recognized as the greatest QB of all time if he threw to Mike Sherrard as his primary WR and not Jerry Rice from 1985-1991? Probably so but the gap between him and no. 2 would be much closer. In any case, he would still be in the top three or four. How great would Johnny Unitas and Raymond Berry have been without the other? Still great, no doubt, but would they be recognized as among the best ever at their respective positions? Does Terry Bradshaw win Super Bowl X over the Cowboys if he had Golden Richards and Drew Pearson instead of Lynn Swann soaring high into the Miami sky that day?

I know you can pull out stats galore telling me how the Cowboys could not run the ball without Emmitt. I have a degree in engineering. I love numbers and equations and calculations as much as anyone. And while I would agree that the 1992-95 Cowboys would have had no success without Troy and Emmitt, had the Cowboys not had that great O-line during those years they would not be remembered today as the greatest team of that era despite the speed and depth on defense and the presence of three future HOFers at the key skill positions.

I've read comments above that make me shake my head: e.g., Nate Newton was not a good athlete; since Erik Williams never made it to the HOF because of his car wreck, his level of play is discounted; the 90s line lacked first round draft picks and therefore their talent level was less.

Nate Newton started at LG from 1992-98. He made six Pro Bowls over those seven seasons, as well as two first team All Pro nominations. John Madden, whom I regard as a greater football talent evaluator than even the best posters on this forum, often spoke of Newton's quick feet and nimbleness for a man his size. I recall Newton being able to root out massive and powerful men like William Perry (340 lbs with an 1100 lb leg press) or lead on sweeps and bury LBers. I loved Herb Scott in the 1970s, but Nate was better. Maybe Newton would not blow anyone away with his SPARQ if that was available 20-25 years ago, but the big guy could play and he could dominate. Madden saw that. I think Hudson Houck would agree, too.

Mark Stepnoski, the "runt of the litter," played at 265 lbs and benched 450 lbs coming out of Pitt. He was a sound technician in both the run game and in pass blocking. He needed help with larger nose tackles or DTs lined over him but he could get to the second level and hold his own in pass protection, giving Troy an intact pocket up the middle. Step was named to five consecutive Pro Bowls from 1992-96, was a 3x All Pro and was named to 2nd team behind Dermonti Dawson on the 1990s All Decade Team. When Step left, Ray Donaldson (6x Pro Bowl, including two with the Cowboys in 1995-96) filled in well. And Derek Kennard was a solid back-up at both C and G, and he started in SB XXX after Donaldson was injured.

As some others have said, Williams was the most dominant tackle of the 90s and on his way to Canton. He lost some lateral movement after his car wreck but the Big E was still good enough to make three Pro Bowls after he ruined his knee. Everyone knows he was not the same player after the accident, but he was that player for two of the Cowboys three SBs in the 90s and he was still at a Pro Bowl level in 95 when the Cowboys won their third. I know Tyron Smith is a terrific player but I would take Erik Williams any day over Smith. We are comparing here the Cowboys O-line in their heyday of the early-to-mid 90s, not the Cowboys line of the late 90s or not the Erik Williams that ended his NFL career in Baltimore. Give me the Erik Williams of 1992-95 over any offensive lineman on the current roster and over any current NFL lineman.

Since Larry Allen needs no discussion, I have saved the late Mark Tuinei for last. Tui did not receive the accolades of his linemates. He was a blue collar player on a glitz team, and he spent his career playing in the shadows cast by Willie Roaf, Gary Zimmerman, Richmond Webb, Jim Covert, Joe Jacoby, and of course, Anthony Munoz. Tui did win two Pro Bowl nominations during the SB years and he played admirably against Bruce Smith in both SBs. That, in itself, is noteworthy. When the experts list the best RDEs in the history of the game the only name above greats like Gino Marchetti and Lee Roy Selmon is Bruce Smith. Tui did not dominate Smith the way Williams dominated Reggie but in those SBs, especially XXVIII, Aikman had a pretty clean pocket and good backside protection. Tui is not Tyron Smith but he was still a good player.

Since some on this forum believe Tony Romo is better than Aikman and some think Dez is pretty much equal to Michael Irvin, maybe the current O-line will pave the way to another Lombardi trophy or two. Maybe then I'll concede this group is better than the 90s group. The hardware earns the rep. The Steel Curtain is one of the greatest front fours in NFL history, and many consider them to be the best - they have four Lombardi's to show for it. And while I think the Fearsome Foursome (Jones, Olsen, Grier, Lundy) was the most talented, the Steelers have the hardware to back the rep.

The Cowboys have the best run blocking O-line in the NFL and they are probably the best overall line in the game today. It's stocked with top draft choices, not 3rd rounders or free agents. But that 90s crew not only has a ton of awards in the form of Pro Bowl and All Pro nominations but three of those guys - Tui, Nate, Williams - have three rings. I'd love to see Fredbeard and crew get there. We all would. But right now, as a unit, I like the 90s line. That group, right now, is in the conversation along with some of the truly great lines from the 70s and 80s (Raiders of the 70s with three HOF linemen; Cardinals of the 70s; the Hogs of the 80s; and Rams of the 80s with multiple Pro Bowlers and All Pros) as the very best of all time.

Unfortunately, because of FA and injury, we never got to see Allen, Williams and Step play together for 7, 8 or 9 years at a high (healthy) level of play. Had we, I think the OP could have saved this thread for about five years and then begin it.

That is my $0.02.

I appreciate the respect and the effort. Obviously I disagree, mostly because the Super Bowl wins tell you much more about the team as a whole than about the offensive line as a unit.

 

[LocimusPrime]

Our 90's line got more done for less money. When all of their rookie deals are up they will be very expensive. Mark tuinei and stenopski signed 5 year 12-13 million dollar deals. So overall the 90's line was a smalker portion of the overall teams total salary

 

[waldoputty]

90s line was deeper and if one guy went down, you could plug and play the next guy up with little change in outcome. It was also a better coached unit, and most importantly they were just downright nasty (everyone remembers LA and Erik Williams but Gogan and Tui were just as nasty). They were primarily a man power blocking unit and they enjoyed opening cans of whupass on opposing Ds, especially in running game.

i only remember 1994 where we had a lot of depth with kennard and allen?

 

[BAT]

i only remember 1994 where we had a lot of depth with kennard and allen?

Gesek, Gogan and Newton played multiple positions in early 90s.

In mid 90s, Cowboys also had future pro bowler Ron Stone in addition to Larry Allen, Big Baby Kennard and Nate.

 

[Cowboy06]

90's and it's not close. They had talent and attitude that this current group can't match.

I agree...but not about the talent per se...but more because of the attitude...they were just down right nasty.

 

[Cowboy06]

I appreciate the respect and the effort. Obviously I disagree, mostly because the Super Bowl wins tell you much more about the team as a whole than about the offensive line as a unit.

I didn't watch any boxing this weekend...I wanted to see a fight....y'all gonna be all respectful and nice...geeeeeezzzzzz

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I'm not sure Tyron is better than Flozell.

Yet.

They have similar power and size but Smith is quicker and much better out in space.

Flozell also took several years to get going. Smith has been good to great every year he's been in the league.

 

[waldoputty]

They have similar power and size but Smith is quicker and much better out in space.

Flozell also took several years to get going. Smith has been good to great every year he's been in the league.

flozell was also penalty machine...