Why I think Montana was overrated

[tunahelper]

That Rice fella was a terrible route runner too!

 

[IndianaCowboyFan]

There are some players for teams you may hate that it is hard for you not to like or respect them.

They might be players that some call over rated or under rated.

Joe is someone that although I hated the 49ers I have always respected as a player and he seems to be a really good guy as well.

He is just one of those guys for me. Same with Darrell Green with the Skins...it is my duty as a cowboys fan to hate the skins, but I just could not hate Darrell Green. He was just a great player and human being.

I agree with you here BrAinPaiNt, you are right on both counts.

 

[THUMPER]

I believe that Montana was helped by Walsh and the system more than any other quarterback except for maybe Graham.

You lost any credibility you might otherwise have had with that statement right there unless you are talking about Kent Graham. If you meant Otto Graham then you.. well, I'll be banned if I say what I think.
:bang2: :bang2: :bang2: :bang2: :bang2: :bang2: :bang2:

 

[theebs]

I believe that Montana was helped by Walsh and the system more than any other quarterback except for maybe Graham. If you look back at the QB's that Walsh had: Kenny Anderson, Fouts, DeBerg, Garcia, Montana, Young, Dils at Stanford etc......... All of them had one thing in common. They all dramatically increased their accuracy and yards under Walsh. They all ran an offense that was new, thus harder to defend.

"Walsh made me," Anderson said

"Bill Walsh made all the difference in the world," said Fouts, who was inducted into the Hall of Fame, along with Walsh, in 1993.

"I learned more in two years from Bill about being a quarterback than I did in the rest of my 10 years in the NFL," said Dils, who now works in Atlanta for Grubb & Ellis, a commercial real estate advisory firm. "He taught me so much about the game."


In a March 2007 article in Sports Illustrated, columnist Michael Silver described Walsh as the "most influential football man of his era" and a "transcendent ringmaster." "With his meticulously crafted organization and cerebral practice regimens, to his daring personnel decisions and his visionary offensive schemes, he created an enduring model," Silver wrote. "Today, the West Coast, with its reliance on short passes, precisely timed routes and intricately planned progressions, is the NFL's preeminent scheme. But in the early 1980s it merely drove opposing coaches nuts."

Walsh's impact on the coaching industry is apparent by the rise of former assistants, players and people who have come under his influence, including Dennis Green, Mike Holmgren, Mike Shanahan, Ray Rhodes, Jeff Fisher, Sam Wyche, Rod Dowhower, Bruce Coslet, Sherman Lewis, Brian Billick, Gary Kubiak, George Seifert, Jon Gruden, Paul Hackett, Tom Holmoe, Dwaine Board, Bobb McKittrick, Bill McPherson, Steve Mariucci, Tom Rathman, Jim Mora, Greg Knapp, Harry Sydney and Tom Lovat.

Montana would not have been anywhere as good with most of the teams that the other listed quarterbacks played with IMO.

Yeah but should Pete Rose be in the hall of fame?

magic or bird?

 

[MarkP88]

A part of me would love to agree with you, given that Montana-to-Clark was the single biggest dagger my 8th-grade heart ever felt.

Nevertheless...are you insane? I can see your point--every QB, in order to be successful, needs to end up in a system that best fits his skills. Using your reasoning, virtually any good QB can be labeled overrated. Hundreds of QBs have played in Walsh's system, and others derived from it, over the years--and none of them played it like Montana did.

 

[Luther]

Montana was the best. Yes, I think the best ever.

Yes, the arguments can continue forever. But Montana had "IT" and, IMO, had more of "IT" than anyone else (so far).

Oh, and yes I have been pulling for the Cowboys since the 60s.

 

[sonnyboy]

Unfortunately we don't have the benefit of reviewing history in a parallel universe where Montana is drafted by the Saints and goes the way of A. Manning.

 

[skinsscalper]

There isn't a logical argument in the world you could make for a QB that led his team to 4 Super Bowl victories to be overrated. Sorry.

Same goes for Brady. I can't stand the guy, but to say he's overrated is just plain hatin'.

Ditto for Bradshaw.

You just don't win that many championships and linger in the overrated category. Dilfer? Yes. Johnson? Yes. Not Montana.

 

[Q_the_man]

A QB that makes good decisions will be successful. Its not ALL about the system.

So if we traded Aikman instead of Walsh would we have won 3 superbowls....

 

[joseephuss]

Montana is not over rated. He was a great QB. He happened to play in a system that was best suited for him and was on some really good teams. He would have been a good QB on a number of teams and systems. The results probably would not have been the same, but you would be able to tell he was good. Kind of like Archie Manning. You could tell he was good even though his teams usually sucked.

Aikman would have been good had he been drafted by another team. You could tell he had some good skills in 1989 when that team was terrible.

Some of the greatest players in the game are the product of not only what they bring to the table, but also in what situation that they end up. Emmitt was a great running back that was lucky to run behind some very good blockers. You could break that into two different sentences and both would be true. Emmitt was a great running back. Emmitt was lucky to run behind some very good blockers.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

The WCO is a QB friendly offense, that is true. However, would you confuse Jeff Garcia with Joe Montana? How bout Tye Detmire? I mean, we can go on for a considerable length of time just pointing out QBs who have come out and run the WCO but will never be confused with Joe Montana. Joe Montana was a great QB but he was not a great QB because he played for Walsh or in the WCO. That is part of it but that is not the reason, per say.

I would also point out that Dan Fouts and the San Diego Chargers did not run a WCO. Some of the principles are the same but they are not the same offense. The WCO actually has it's roots from Paul Brown and his Ohio Offense. The Chargers offense, which was really Don Coryell's Air Coryell or Vertical Offense really has it's roots in Sid Gillman's and Web Eubanks Offensive principles. One utilized a controlled short passing game to facilitate the offense. The other used multiple receivers with direct emphysis on creating miss matches through the vertical passing game. Different offenses and approaches.

 

[TellerMorrow34]

System...team...coaches...plenty of sex before games...Divine intervention I don't care what excuse, or explanation, a person comes up with.

Montana was the best ever, in my book, for a variety of reasons. So Walsh managed to put him into a system that worked great for what Montana did best. Well GOOD FOR HIM. That was his job. Should players give back their Probowls, Superbowls, and HOF jackets cause they were lucky enough to have competent coaches? Get out of town.

There are many reasons that I go with Montana as number one but there are two reasons, in particular, that make him number one for me.

4-0 and 11-0.


Those two stats are all I need to know. Perfect on the biggest stage of all (Twice leading his team to come from behind victories in the final 3 minutes of the game to throw game winning TD Passes. You'll note that 2 of his 4 Superbowl wins were prior to Rice joining the team so that idea he couldn't win without Rice has long since been proven stupid) and the perfect TD to INT ratio.

He wasn't just good when it mattered most. He was perfection.

 

[ThreeSportStar80]

There are some players for teams you may hate that it is hard for you not to like or respect them.

They might be players that some call over rated or under rated.

Joe is someone that although I hated the 49ers I have always respected as a player and he seems to be a really good guy as well.

He is just one of those guys for me. Same with Darrell Green with the Skins...it is my duty as a cowboys fan to hate the skins, but I just could not hate Darrell Green. He was just a great player and human being.

I have to agree!

 

[ringmaster]

I believe that Montana was helped by Walsh and the system more than any other quarterback except for maybe Graham. If you look back at the QB's that Walsh had: Kenny Anderson, Fouts, DeBerg, Garcia, Montana, Young, Dils at Stanford etc......... All of them had one thing in common. They all dramatically increased their accuracy and yards under Walsh. They all ran an offense that was new, thus harder to defend.

"Walsh made me," Anderson said

"Bill Walsh made all the difference in the world," said Fouts, who was inducted into the Hall of Fame, along with Walsh, in 1993.

"I learned more in two years from Bill about being a quarterback than I did in the rest of my 10 years in the NFL," said Dils, who now works in Atlanta for Grubb & Ellis, a commercial real estate advisory firm. "He taught me so much about the game."


In a March 2007 article in Sports Illustrated, columnist Michael Silver described Walsh as the "most influential football man of his era" and a "transcendent ringmaster." "With his meticulously crafted organization and cerebral practice regimens, to his daring personnel decisions and his visionary offensive schemes, he created an enduring model," Silver wrote. "Today, the West Coast, with its reliance on short passes, precisely timed routes and intricately planned progressions, is the NFL's preeminent scheme. But in the early 1980s it merely drove opposing coaches nuts."

Walsh's impact on the coaching industry is apparent by the rise of former assistants, players and people who have come under his influence, including Dennis Green, Mike Holmgren, Mike Shanahan, Ray Rhodes, Jeff Fisher, Sam Wyche, Rod Dowhower, Bruce Coslet, Sherman Lewis, Brian Billick, Gary Kubiak, George Seifert, Jon Gruden, Paul Hackett, Tom Holmoe, Dwaine Board, Bobb McKittrick, Bill McPherson, Steve Mariucci, Tom Rathman, Jim Mora, Greg Knapp, Harry Sydney and Tom Lovat.

Montana would not have been anywhere as good with most of the teams that the other listed quarterbacks played with IMO.

Dude what game were you watching when Montana, played for the Niners.

Montana, in my opinion is rated #1, on my list of great QBs the guy just killed defenses with his deadly accuracy with the ball, and killed defenses in other ways many other QBs, couldn't.

Nobody ran the WCO, like Montana did he made the WCO, yes Walsh, (rest his soul) was a pioneer in creating the offense but he wasn't on the field playing the offense.

There were many other QBs, that ran the WCO, some were pretty good but they were not Montana.

The timing offense created by Don Coryell, with the Chargers led by Fouts, I never saw Fouts play, but I did read stuff about how good he was running the offense but he never won a SB.

To me not being a homer here but no QB, ran the Coryell attack better than Aikman, yeah he didn't have the stats Fouts, had in the same offense but he won three SBs, running that offense.

So no one can overrated Montana 4 SB victories, Bradshaw 4 SB victories, Aikman 3 SB victories, and Brady 3 SB victories.

I don't care who they had around them those WRs, couldn't throw the ball to themselves, and the RBs, couldn't hand the ball to themselves all the QBs, mentioned were just as important to their teams winning championships.

 

[Marktui]

It takes a certain type of qb to run the west coast offense. Accuracy is the single most import aspect that is needed to run this offense. Hitting the wr in stride and on time is needed to keep the defenders from locking up the receiver and tackling him for short gains.

McNabb tries to run the WC and has some success to a degree. But he does not have the accuracy to run it efficiently.

You could say that Montana was in the perfect offense for his talent, but again you could say that for a lot of qb's in the league. But I don't think in any way that Montana was overrated. He made that offense what it is today, I think if not for his success that offense might not be so popular as it is today.

 

[Sarge]

Montana was not overrated.

 

[joseephuss]

System...team...coaches...plenty of sex before games...Divine intervention I don't care what excuse, or explanation, a person comes up with.

Montana was the best ever, in my book, for a variety of reasons. So Walsh managed to put him into a system that worked great for what Montana did best. Well GOOD FOR HIM. That was his job. Should players give back their Probowls, Superbowls, and HOF jackets cause they were lucky enough to have competent coaches? Get out of town.

There are many reasons that I go with Montana as number one but there are two reasons, in particular, that make him number one for me.

4-0 and 11-0.


Those two stats are all I need to know. Perfect on the biggest stage of all (Twice leading his team to come from behind victories in the final 3 minutes of the game to throw game winning TD Passes. You'll note that 2 of his 4 Superbowl wins were prior to Rice joining the team so that idea he couldn't win without Rice has long since been proven stupid) and the perfect TD to INT ratio.

He wasn't just good when it mattered most. He was perfection.

Although his Superbowl stats are very impressive, I don't think they are the most impressive part of his resume. The Superbowl is not always the toughest matchup. Montana faced stronger opponents in the NFC Championship games than he did in the Superbowl and did very well against them.

Montana's QB rating
92.26 in regular season
96.19 in 23 playoff games
87.55 in 12 Wildcard(3) and Division(9) Playoff games
93.92 in 7 Conference Championship games
105.98 in 7 Conference Championship games & 4 Superbowls combined
127.83 in 4 Superbowls

 

[mmillman]

My point is not that Montana was not a great QB, he was. I think he benefited by the system that Walsh put in place more than any others on the QB game list benefited from their systems. The early west coast offense was difficult to defend because nobody else ran it and nobody else could duplicate it to practice against.

The only defense that had any consistent sucess against Walsh was the Giants and that was simply LT changing what they did.

SF didn't miss a beat w/ Young. Walsh was Fouts and Anderson qb coach. The year he became their coach their stats improved dramatically. Same thing in SF and Stanford.

No way Denver goes to any of those superbowls with Montana instead of Elway.

Football is the ultimate team game. No quarterback would be on that list if they didn't have decent players around them. You can't complete passes on your back. The west coast offense was an extension of the running game and most of the time passes were gone before a rush could whiff Montana. Some of those qbs put teams on their back, I think Walsh had more to do with his success than any other qb on the list.

Graham was a product of Brown's system to a certain extent also. They were doing things that no other team did which gave them a huge advantage for a time.

Great QB, not a top ten all time IMO. I would bet if teams started from scratch today and could pick any qb in their prime to lead them Montana would not be a top 10 pick.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

My point is not that Montana was not a great QB, he was. I think he benefited by the system that Walsh put in place more than any others on the QB game list benefited from their systems. The early west coast offense was difficult to defend because nobody else ran it and nobody else could duplicate it to practice against.

The only defense that had any consistent sucess against Walsh was the Giants and that was simply LT changing what they did.

SF didn't miss a beat w/ Young. Walsh was Fouts and Anderson qb coach. The year he became their coach their stats improved dramatically. Same thing in SF and Stanford.

No way Denver goes to any of those superbowls with Montana instead of Elway.

Football is the ultimate team game. No quarterback would be on that list if they didn't have decent players around them. You can't complete passes on your back. The west coast offense was an extension of the running game and most of the time passes were gone before a rush could whiff Montana. Some of those qbs put teams on their back, I think Walsh had more to do with his success than any other qb on the list.

Graham was a product of Brown's system to a certain extent also. They were doing things that no other team did which gave them a huge advantage for a time.

Great QB, not a top ten all time IMO. I would bet if teams started from scratch today and could pick any qb in their prime to lead them Montana would not be a top 10 pick.

Please don't try putting Elway above Montana... That's just disrespectful.


Elway never even won a SB until TD was there.

And what offense was Denver running when they won those SB's?

Hmm????

 

[THUMPER]

Graham was a product of Brown's system to a certain extent also. They were doing things that no other team did which gave them a huge advantage for a time.

For a time? 10 consecutive years is not "for a time", that was his entire career.