Why I will always dislike Jim Brown...

[Redball Express]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Q8cxAp2am0&feature=related

Can someone explain what Jimmy Brown is doing there?

I think I can.

He knew Thomas had as much ability as he had. Brown was always an ego maniac and I truly believe he submarined Thomas' career out of jealousy. He certainly didn't provide sage wisdom and leadership. And how terribly disrespectful was it of him to cut off the interview as is Thomas was a puppet under his control?

I was a young fan back then and had been experiencing the Duane Thomas issue first hand and there is not enough background on what was going on in this film clip to really form anything negative about Jim Brown.

In fact, at the time, because of Jim Brown and his stepping in and handling of Thomas, we won SB VI because of him. Without Jim Brown being able to talk to Thomas over the course of the year, Duane would have been useless to us that year. His head was really screwed up.

Duane had preferred to stay out in California during the off-season and didn't return to Dallas for the Spring Mini Camps Dallas used to hold...but back then, they were called QB Schools, but the entire squad was supposed to attend.

Not Thomas.

Instead of QB School, Thomas stayed out in California, where he and Jim Brown were living together in Brown's home.

This brought out a real backlash in the overall frustration with Thomas from just about everybody because the previous year, he had been apparently free of any of these sidebar issues and was Rookie-Of-the Year and looked like a huge discovery for Dallas in the draft.

It upset a bunch of the fans because at the time, the team was being slammed for being 'Tomorrow's Champions' and their character was being questioned as a team. Craig Morton was a huge topic of debate as to whether he should be the starter after his SB V performance the year before.

And because Duane Thomas had had a crucial fumble near the goal line in SB V that most pointed to as being the losing play for Dallas, most fans were thinking that Thomas was going to be a crown jewel in our next season to win it all and avenge his mistake in SB V.

Instead, he turned around and nearly destroyed the team before the next season could begin.

He was beginning to openly show aggressive over-reactions to the fans and the game, calling Landry a 'Plastic Man' and holding Tex Schramm responsible for his underpaid contract, according to him. He even made analogies about himself being little more than a 'slave' to Schramm and the Cowboys.

These were huge issues in Dallas. Especially with demagogues like Landry and Tex. It was then announced that Duane Thomas wasn't coming to training camp and was going to hold out over his contract issues. At that point, I believe the team began fining him for not showing up to the team facilities and attending QB School and threatened to suspend his contract totally if he missed TC..

Was this all Jim Brown's doing..? I don't think so. certainly, I think somewhere along the way, Brown had decided he was going to elevate the image of the black athlete in the 60's. He had apparently suffered alot of abuse as a black man in the NFL and although he had been a Hall of Fame RB, he was not satisfied with the lack of equality in sports and with minority relations in the NFL in particular..

These were in fact, true issues that many were not dealing with at the time. Not the owners, not the players and not the fans. And in hindsight, Duane Thomas decided Jim Brown was right. For better or for worst, he changed and became more militant and more outspoken in what he wanted from the Cowboys if he was going to play for us.

Fortunately, for the team and for Thomas, Jim Brown interceded and got Thomas to agree to come to training camp and avoid a nasty situation for the team but he would only do it if he gave no interviews and the same rules were to be done during the season.

This is what happened and the team and the media never talked to Duane Thomas the whole season. This was a significant source of tension all season for the team and fans.

Yes, probably Jim Brown had an influence, but Duane was his own man. Like everybody, you have to be accountable for your own actions once you become an adult. And he and he alone, took up the positions that he got tattooed for later.

To blame Brown is unfair, IMO. Jim Brown went on to be more and more militant as years went by as he took up other causes,, but in looking at what he was concerned about at the time in the NFL and also Duane Thomas, they were right and I think as the world has changed towards what Jim Brown and Duane Thomas wanted to see, they were clearly right.

It's a very different world today and prejudice in all areas of sports has changed incredibly.

So when you are looking at this film clip..understand this was a moment of relief for the fans, the player and the team overall in hearing Duane Thomas speak at all to anybody. None of the fans really knew Thomas as he was considered a quiet guy from the first.

But his football spoke volumes for him. And I think Jim Brown's place at the podium with Thomas was important at that moment. It was a show of solidarity for Thomas and what they both were still trying to work towards.

Back then, these players were not trained like they are now with media classes and NFL combines where they have to attend classes about how to interview, how to deal with undesirable influences outside of sports, how to handle their money, etc.

In his way, Jim Brown was trying to march his issues forward and Duane Thomas was his ally and was willing to let his situation represent the test case, so to speak.

Did it ruin Thomas as a running back for Dallas..? I don't think so. But the fight that he and Brown undertook was a tough one.it may have cost him his career to do what he did when he did it.

And now that his and Brown's causes went on to be fixed with the NFLPA, the owners and the BARGAINING AGREEMENT and other measures that have been implemented in the sport, like the coaching hiring Minority Rule..

To me, Duane Thomas will always be a winner and a mis-understood champion. And Jim Brown, despite his controversial approaches, played an important role in winning our first SB as a franchise. Most just didn't see him as the protagonist he was in getting us there.

It was a strange role, but it was needed at the time.

As a fan, it was hard to watch Thomas do what he did. And it was hard to see his career lead away from Dallas, but there was alot more going on there than met the eye in those days.

Could you imagine what Duane Thomas would have been worth in today's market if he had been released by Dallas or had been not re-signed after his original contract was over like it is setup today..?

Part of the reason we have what we have today, we have to thank Jim Brown and Duane Thomas and others for.

And remarks like one poster stated about Jim Brown and the wife abuse issue is not a fair issue and has no place here.

That's like slandering Michael Irvin because he's been arrested for solicitation of prostitution and drug possession and saying he was a bad person.

He's made his mistakes, like Jim Brown has. Bad persons. no.

My 2 cents.

:starspinReDBall ExPreSS:starspin

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Just to clarify, I didn't mean to write "rules". Or I did, and was confused. I don't know of any specific rule changes that encouraged scoring. However, scoring was WAY up league wide. I think the Celtics averaged over 120 ppg that season. And it's not because they were nailing all their shots - shooters were pretty atrocious back then. Which in turn led to an exorbitant amount of rebounds - which led to Robertson's juiced triple-double average.

Still impressive, but send Magic back there, or Kidd, or maybe even Kobe, and the result probably would have been the same. The rule changes in recent years benefit point guards more than Bryant - he dominated even in the muscle-ball era when scoring was way down and scorers were getting mugged.

The rules against putting your hands on defenders were put in in 1999 after the Spurs mastered the technique with players like Mario Elie and held teams to 39% shooting.

Kobe did not dominate during that time period. He wasnt even making 20 points a game during that time period. He also got swept by that Spurs team in 1999.

Quite the contrary it was not until those rules were put into place for the 2000 season that he started winning scoring titlles and and championships.

 

[superpunk]

The rules against putting your hands on defenders were put in in 1999 after the Spurs mastered the technique with players like Mario Elie and held teams to 39% shooting.

Kobe did not dominate during that time period. He wasnt even making 20 points a game during that time period. He also got swept by that Spurs team in 1999.

Quite the contrary it was not until those rules were put into place for the 2000 season that he started winning scoring titlles and and championships.

He was also 21 and had only been a starter for less than one year.

Come on, now....

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Check out the rules and scoring throughout the league the year Robertson averaged a triple double. Gets less impressive. NBA stats are completely messed up from about 1959-1970.

Im looking and I have no idea what youre talking about. What I do know is that the ABA merger created the shorter shot clock and the three point line which caused scoring to go up and inflated stats. That and an influx of coaches willing to run the ball.

I think youre just making stuff up.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

He was also 21 and had only been a starter for less than one year.

Come on, now....

who cares. you are the one saying that he dominated before the rules changes. he didnt. im sure that was a contributing factor but he really didnt become good until the rules changes were in place.

Im not saying hes horrible but every single screen he goes through and every drive he makes you cannot lay a finger on him. How you can say that is not a major benefit to a guy that doesnt pretty much ever post up is beyond me.

 

[superpunk]

who cares. you are the one saying that he dominated before the rules changes. he didnt. im sure that was a contributing factor but he really didnt become good until the rules changes were in place.

The rules I was talking about were the ones that went into effect after the 05-06 season. I don't even know what you're talking about - I know for the 2001-2002 season they allowed hand-checking so long as it didn't impede the offensive player.

Here's the rules that I'm talking about.

Changes favor athletic players
At least one thing the NBA's eight 50-point games this season have in common is that they were done by perimeter players (Bryant four times, James twice and Iverson and New Jersey's Vince Carter once each). These players have the ball in their hands frequently, they play facing the basket most of the time and they have a green light to do, basically, whatever they want with the ball.

Over the last three seasons, the only true post players to reach the 50-point mark have been Indiana's Jermaine O'Neal and Phoenix's Amare Stoudemire.

One reason is the changes in the NBA rules designed to increase scoring.

The changes, which went into effect last season, eliminated hand checking and opened the lane by making it illegal for any defender to be in the lane for longer than three seconds. The changes shifted the advantage to the slick ballhandlers, players who can get their own shots off the dribble and are athletic enough to make three-pointers and drive all the way to the basket. These players also are tough enough to get fouled a lot, then make their free throws.

"If you are athletic and can put the ball on the floor, the rules benefit you," Ramsay says. "It's that simple, and no one takes more advantage of that than Kobe."

Kerr says the elimination of the hand check has been a boon to scoring, especially to players such as Bryant. Since defenders aren't allowed to impede his progress with the hand check, opponents have often found themselves at his mercy this season.

With the perfect basketball body — a 6-7, 210-pound frame — and a drive to work on his game during the offseason as much as he does during the regular season, Bryant has set a lofty standard for himself.

If Bryant played on a championship team, with more skilled teammates, he wouldn't score so many points. He wouldn't have to. Though he has the 81-point game and the 62-pointer this season, his single-game high during the Lakers' three NBA championships run was 56.

"He has to score big numbers now if the Lakers are going to win," Ramsay says, "and even then they don't win sometimes. When he was playing with Shaquille O'Neal, that just wasn't the case. He knew he didn't have to score big for them to win except on rare occasions."
The really good teams in the league now don't rely on one scorer to carry them. The Detroit Pistons, for example, who are challenging the Chicago Bulls' all-time record of 72 wins in a season, don't have a player among the league's top 15 scorers. Of the teams with the top five records, only the Dallas Mavericks have a player in the top 15: Dirk Nowitzki, averaging 26.1 points.

Teams such as the Lakers, the Cavaliers with James, the 76ers with Iverson and the Houston Rockets with Tracy McGrady have no choice but to turn their stars loose if they want to win.

 

[superpunk]

Im looking and I have no idea what youre talking about. What I do know is that the ABA merger created the shorter shot clock and the three point line which caused scoring to go up and inflated stats. That and an influx of coaches willing to run the ball.

I think youre just making stuff up.

Teams shot poorly in those years - which created more rebounds. They also ran like mad, creating more scoring and assists. Hence the easier triple double. Here's a summation, clipped.

Little-known fact: NBA stats are completely screwed up from 1959 to '67. Teams were running and gunning at a breathtaking pace. For instance, the 1960 Celtics scored 124.5 points per game and averaged nearly 120 shots a game, but since the shooters weren't as good back then (the Celts only shot 41 percent that year, which also led the league), they also averaged a whopping 80.2 rebounds per game. To put that in perspective, Phoenix led the league with 111.9 points and 85 shots per game, but they only averaged 44.1 rebounds per game because everyone can make a jumper now and it's not run-and-gun.

Take Oscar's first five years compared with Magic's first five years. From 1961 to 1965, Oscar averaged 30.3 points, 10.4 assists and 10.6 rebounds ... but he was the 17th-best rebounder in the league over that time (in an eight-team league) and the third-best rebounder on his own team (behind Wayne Embry and Jerry Lucas). Magic averaged 18.2 points, 10.3 assists and 8.0 rebounds ... he was the 36th-best rebounder in the league over that stretch (in a 23-team league) and the second-best on his own team (behind that ninny Kareem). Oscar's team averaged 69 rebounds a game 1961-65; Magic's team averaged 45 a game.


Not to infringe on Hollinger's territory here ... but if you prorated Magic's stats to the run-and-gun 1961-65 era, they would look something like this: 21 points, 12 assists and 12 rebounds per game. Even if you transported the 1987-90 Fat Lever (18.9 points, 8.9 rebounds, 7.5 assists, 19th-ranked rebounder), he would have matched all of Oscar's numbers except for the scoring. But if you brought Oscar to the modern era? His rebounding per game would have dropped into the 7-8 range and the "Who was the only NBA player to average a triple-double?" trivia question wouldn't exist. It's true.

 

[lockster]

Jim Brown is the greatest player ever to lace em up on a football field... and Lacrosse too!!

No he wasn't, he was just way above the competition of his day. He could not do what he did then in today's nfl, no ............... way! We have got some of the best athletes ever the last 10 to 15 years.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

1999-2000 N.B.A. PREVIEW; Playing by the (New) Rules

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By MIKE WISE
Published: October 31, 1999

After more than a decade of declining scores, unimaginative offense and borderline thuggery, a special committee approved these four changes for the coming season. By MIKE WISE



NO PUSHING
The most significant change, this rule makes it illegal for defensive players to initiate contact with their hands and arms from the baseline to the foul line. Low post defenders will be able to use their arms to maintain position, but impeding progress in any way will be considered a foul. The idea is to eliminate the chucking and grabbing that slow offenses and prevent scorers from penetrating or getting the ball where they want it on the floor. ''We're hoping the rule gives us a more free-flowing, fluid offensive game,'' said Rod Thorn, the National Basketball Associations's senior vice president of operations.

GET RIDE OF THE DARN BALL
A five-second rule has been added to stop players from isolating themselves on one side of the court and then taking 10 to 15 seconds off the shot clock to back their defender into the post. With only five seconds to make their move, players like Charles Barkley and Mark Jackson will either have to make their move quickly or pass it away.

PASS FOR POINTS
The illegal defense guidelines subjective at best, have been firmed up so that a defender can play anywhere on the side that the ball is on. The idea is to encourage teams to create baskets by finding the open man instead of just dumping the ball into the post in hopes of drawing an illegal defense call.

TIME IS WASTING
Instead of automatically resetting the shot clock to 24 seconds after a foul or a violation in the frontcourt, the clock will be reset only to 14 seconds if there is less time than that remaining on the shot clock at the time of the violation. If there is more than 14 seconds left on the clock, that's howmuch time a team will have to get off a shot.

WHO WILL BE AFFECTED?
The Knicks, Maimi and Utah, who have forged part of their images on hard, physical play, will probably have the hardest time adjusting. Players like Allen Iverson, Allan Houston and Reggie Miller should have more room to create scoring opportunities since they won't be bouncing off defenders like pinballs anymore.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C03E3D6173BF932A05753C1A96F958260

 

[superpunk]

The rule changes you're outlining didn't create the significant scoring change we see today, fuzzy. It wasn't until the ones I posted that guards were really freed up to work facing the basket. And Kobe dominated with and without that rule change, most definitely.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Teams shot poorly in those years - which created more rebounds. They also ran like mad, creating more scoring and assists. Hence the easier triple double. Here's a summation, clipped.

It was not because of the rules changes. Im not arguing that the stats arent skewed. Chamberlain used to throw himself passes off the backboard and gt rebounds and no one could stop him he was so much more physically dominant.

As for the guy "prorating" in your article, he doesnt know what the heck hes talking about. He also uses the Celtics as an example when they were so completely dominating winning something like 10 straight championships using that as an example of the the league as a whole is laughable. Most teams didnt have Cousey, Russell, Havlicek, Jones and Jones.

Thats why they were able to score so many points and whatnot. And if you think that Celtics teams was 'run and gun' team then I really do not know what to telly ou.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The rule changes you're outlining didn't create the significant scoring change we see today, fuzzy. It wasn't until the ones I posted that guards were really freed up to work facing the basket. And Kobe dominated with and without that rule change, most definitely.

The only change in 05 was to put in defensive three seconds. Scoring actually went down because overall the rules made it easier to play zone as you can now double off your man. The handchecking and whatnot was banned in 1999. Did you even read the article you posted?

Are you trying to say that they took out putting hands or arms on players above the key that they had put in in 99? Do you know what handchecking is?

 

[superpunk]

It was not because of the rules changes. Im not arguing that the stats arent skewed. Chamberlain used to throw himself passes off the backboard and gt rebounds and no one could stop him he was so much more physically dominant.

As for the guy "prorating" in your article, he doesnt know what the heck hes talking about. He also uses the Celtics as an example when they were so completely dominating winning something like 10 straight championships using that as an example of the the league as a whole is laughable. Most teams didnt have Cousey, Russell, Havlicek, Jones and Jones.

Thats why they were able to score so many points and whatnot. And if you think that Celtics teams was 'run and gun' team then I really do not know what to telly ou.

The guy writing it was a Celtics fan.

If you don't think the WHOLE LEAGUE was run and gun, I don't know what to tell you. Chicago scored the LEAST points in the league in 1961-62, with 110.9 ppg. This year, the league's highest scoring team is Golden State, averaging 110.1 ppg.

The league was scoring points at an alarming pace, and shooting a poor percentage. So that helps keep Robertson's triple double average, along with everything else happening in that era, in perspective.

 

[superpunk]

The only change in 05 was to put in defensive three seconds. Scoring actually went down because overall the rules made it easier to play zone as you can now double off your man. The handchecking and whatnot was banned in 1999. Did you even read the article you posted?

Are you trying to say that they took out putting hands or arms on players above the key that they had put in in 99? Do you know what handchecking is?

The article that I took that from was from 2006.

The changes, which went into effect last season, eliminated hand checking and opened the lane by making it illegal for any defender to be in the lane for longer than three seconds. The changes shifted the advantage to the slick ballhandlers, players who can get their own shots off the dribble and are athletic enough to make three-pointers and drive all the way to the basket. These players also are tough enough to get fouled a lot, then make their free throws.

The only thing I can find from back around 2001 was that they ALLOWED hand-checking as long as it didn't impede progress - which led to the game being even more boring.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The article that I took that from was from 2006.



The only thing I can find from back around 2001 was that they ALLOWED hand-checking as long as it didn't impede progress - which led to the game being even more boring.

well then you didnt look very hard. i posted an article from 99 where they say.

NO PUSHING
The most significant change, this rule makes it illegal for defensive players to initiate contact with their hands and arms from the baseline to the foul line.

That rule was already in place.

 

[superpunk]

well then you didnt look very hard. i posted an article from 99 where they say.



That rule was already in place.

It's no use talking about this, because we're talking about different things. There was a temporary scoring improvement in 99-00, when 5 teams instead of just one average more than 100 ppg, and Sacramento made it to 105. That sort of trend continued until last year (when the rules I'm talking about came into effect) and 10-11 teams are averaging 100+ per game now.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

wierd tangent

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

It's no use talking about this, because we're talking about different things. There was a temporary scoring improvement in 99-00, when 5 teams instead of just one average more than 100 ppg, and Sacramento made it to 105. That sort of trend continued until last year (when the rules I'm talking about came into effect) and 10-11 teams are averaging 100+ per game now.

league scoring went down slightly in 05-06 from 04-05. the scoring improvement also wasnt temporary in 99 it kept on going up until the 05-06 season.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2005.html

 

[Royal Laegotti]

Sorry gonna have to disagree with ya, put Bo Jackson in Gayle's place in that sentence and you've got a winner.

For some reason I forgot about Bo, I have to agree with you.

 

[Royal Laegotti]

you don't get the point he's making

Wilt was just so big, and so fast, that he dominated over the smaller, slower players of his era

his skills and body-type would allow him to survive, and thrive, against any decade of players, that's how physically imposing he was

hell, the NBA instituted the rim-rule for free throw shots, that you have to wait until the ball touches the rim and comes off before you can rebound it, because he would always dunk his

No, I understand his point in full. My comments about Jordan and Bird were in addition to his comments and why what Jordan and Bird did was more impressive to me than what Wilt did!