Williams Overrated, counterpoint

[AbeBeta]

He may not be Ronnie Lott but he's a damn good player. I'de like to see you take a hit from Roy since you seem to think he doesnt bring the wood anymore

Take of your #31 jersey for a sec and TRY to evaluate Roy critically.

 

[STSINAZ]

that doesnt make sense...the payton manning reference...because he doesnt have to scramble on every play...roy could be called to cover on every play...50% of the time at least...its part of his job! scrambling is minor

 

[AbeBeta]

Okay... Name me one player that didn't ever miss a tackle...
I give you that he HAS missed tackles. But it's like DB's even the elite DB's get burned.

Why? I never said others didn't. I pointed out an area where I believe that Roy could improve.

I agree. He hasn't done anything yet - to be mentioned in the same breath as Lott, but to say he isn't an elite safety is ludicrous. He HAS made game changing plays. He HAS made incredible hits. He HAS made drive ending plays yada, yada, yada, yada.

I still stand by my assertion that he is in the elite status...

If you look at the body of his work - he is one of the best safeties. I was just using the highlight point to disprove your counterpoint that he hasn't made any plays...

I guess the issue is what you define as Elite. I define an Elite player as a HoF level player. Elite means the best or most skilled members of a group. I am comparing Roy to the great safeties of all time and do not see him as being close to those guys yet. If you are defining Elite as the best in the league right now then I'd agree he is among the best -- but that is a completely different criteria and a pretty generous way to define Elite.

If you look at the body of his work - he is one of the best safeties. I was just using the highlight point to disprove your counterpoint that he hasn't made any plays...

I never said he hasn't made any plays. So I guess you are going to have a hard time disproving my point there. I said he isn't making as many plays as in his first two years.

If folks don't agree that he isn't making enough plays then why on earth would everyone be complaining about how the FS problems are keeping him off the line of scrimmage and reducing his opportunities to make plays? Huh?

And don't come with the "he would if he played on in the box" junk -- performance makes you elite -- not what ifs and if onlys.

 

[Birdlives]

someone please name a better strong safety in the leauge with valid points comparing the two. yours guy v.s. roy williams...

Umm, okay.

Troy Polomalu comes to mind. Also Brian Dawkins. How about Donovan Darius.

Polomalu, better coverage safety with the same big hit ability as Roy. Good against the run as well as the pass.

Dawkins, the same can be said for him. Good against the run as well as the pass and a longer record of doing so. He maybe getting up in years, but Dawk is still superior to Roy.

Donovan Darius, one of the premiere DB's in the league and leading tackler fo the Jaguars. Darius also has superior coverage skills.

A case could be made for Mike Brown of the Bears or Kenoy Kennedy of the Lions, but is seems to me these guy are a little inferior.

That being said, Roy is a top SS in the NFL, just not the best all time SS in the world. Sorry. JMO.

 

[peplaw06]

Why? I never said others didn't. I pointed out an area where I believe that Roy could improve.



I guess the issue is what you define as Elite. I define an Elite player as a HoF level player. Elite means the best or most skilled members of a group. I am comparing Roy to the great safeties of all time and do not see him as being close to those guys yet. If you are defining Elite as the best in the league right now then I'd agree he is among the best -- but that is a completely different criteria and a pretty generous way to define Elite.



I never said he hasn't made any plays. So I guess you are going to have a hard time disproving my point there. I said he isn't making as many plays as in his first two years.

If folks don't agree that he isn't making enough plays then why on earth would everyone be complaining about how the FS problems are keeping him off the line of scrimmage and reducing his opportunities to make plays? Huh?

And don't come with the "he would if he played on in the box" junk -- performance makes you elite -- not what ifs and if onlys.

Well at least for a portion of the first two years he was playing FS with one Darren Woodson. Now he's playing SS and has to play with the likes of Davis, Dixon, Scott, etc. Everyone knows he hasn't been able to line up in the box and blow plays up. It's not surprising that he hasn't made "as many big plays." Doesn't change the fact, that for my money he's the best SS in the NFL.

 

[AbeBeta]

Well at least for a portion of the first two years he was playing FS with one Darren Woodson. Now he's playing SS and has to play with the likes of Davis, Dixon, Scott, etc. Everyone knows he hasn't been able to line up in the box and blow plays up. It's not surprising that he hasn't made "as many big plays." Doesn't change the fact, that for my money he's the best SS in the NFL.

Again, I'm not calling someone "Elite" based on what they could be IF other criteria were met -- you can say that about many players. To be a great he has to consistently make plays, period. Why on Earth would anyone call him an Elite player based on what they IMAGINE he COULD do?

 

[AbeBeta]

Umm, okay.

Troy Polomalu comes to mind. Also Brian Dawkins. How about Donovan Darius.

Polomalu, better coverage safety with the same big hit ability as Roy. Good against the run as well as the pass.

Dawkins, the same can be said for him. Good against the run as well as the pass and a longer record of doing so. He maybe getting up in years, but Dawk is still superior to Roy.

Donovan Darius, one of the premiere DB's in the league and leading tackler fo the Jaguars. Darius also has superior coverage skills.

A case could be made for Mike Brown of the Bears or Kenoy Kennedy of the Lions, but is seems to me these guy are a little inferior.

That being said, Roy is a top SS in the NFL, just not the best all time SS in the world. Sorry. JMO.

Since you are agreeing with me..........

 

[TEK2000]

Ed Reed, Brian Dawkins, and Roy Williams are 3 of the very best safeties in the league in my opinion.

Dawkins gets a little less recognition than the others but I did a stat comparison 1 day and he racks them up with the best of them. His 2005 season was AWESOME! statistically. There's not 1 category where he doesn't have great stats.

Adrian Wilson isn't even in Sean Taylor's league IMO.. the guy had ONE season with a lot of tackles and sacks. He has 8 sacks in 2005 and no other year in his career does he have even 2 in 1 year. All the sudden he's considered ELITE?

Taylor is not far behind the 3 mentioned at the top... he's also the youngest of them so his upside is very good (if he stays out of trouble).

 

[peplaw06]

Umm, okay.

Troy Polomalu comes to mind. Also Brian Dawkins. How about Donovan Darius.

Polomalu, better coverage safety with the same big hit ability as Roy. Good against the run as well as the pass.

Dawkins, the same can be said for him. Good against the run as well as the pass and a longer record of doing so. He maybe getting up in years, but Dawk is still superior to Roy.

You may have an argument for better overall, but we know Dawkins career, it's almost over. Roy just finished his 4th year.

Donovan Darius, one of the premiere DB's in the league and leading tackler fo the Jaguars. Darius also has superior coverage skills.

Donovin Darius?? Are you serious?? The Jaguars wouldn't even make this claim. 2 of Roy's first three years he had more tackles than Donovin has ever had. Roy has 2 less INT's in 4 less seasons. Roy has 4.5 more sacks. And how many times has Darius been a Pro-Bowler? 2... Roy -- 3. Don't make me laugh

A case could be made for Mike Brown of the Bears or Kenoy Kennedy of the Lions, but is seems to me these guy are a little inferior.

You're making cases for everyone. Hell let's talk about Adam Archuleta.

 

[peplaw06]

Again, I'm not calling someone "Elite" based on what they could be IF other criteria were met -- you can say that about many players. To be a great he has to consistently make plays, period. Why on Earth would anyone call him an Elite player based on what they IMAGINE he COULD do?

Who's imagining?? We saw it in his first two seasons.

 

[TEK2000]

Again, I'm not calling someone "Elite" based on what they could be IF other criteria were met -- you can say that about many players. To be a great he has to consistently make plays, period. Why on Earth would anyone call him an Elite player based on what they IMAGINE he COULD do?

I still don't get where people are saying Roy doesn't consistently make plays. His statistics show an outstanding rookie season and him being quite consistent ever since.

He's certainly as consistent as Brian Dawkins.

 

[Birdlives]

This response alone is enough for me to know where you're coming from.

 

[riggo]

that doesnt make sense...the payton manning reference...because he doesnt have to scramble on every play...roy could be called to cover on every play...50% of the time at least...its part of his job! scrambling is minor

no, youre not crazy. i thought the same thing.

 

[Birdlives]

You may have an argument for better overall, but we know Dawkins career, it's almost over. Roy just finished his 4th year.

All the man asked for was one. Thanks for proving my point for me.

 

[TEK2000]

Donovan Darius, one of the premiere DB's in the league and leading tackler fo the Jaguars. Darius also has superior coverage skills.

When your safety is your leading tackler... that tends to lead to the conclusion that he's not making plays to PREVENT the reciever from catching the ball but rather a step behind and making the play AFTER the catch has been made. Thus.. he's giving up yards/first downs.

Darius has a total of 2 sacks over an 8 year career. He also has a total of 14 INT's over his 8 years... Roy has 12 in 4 years...
Darius has scored ONE defensive touchdown and that was in his rookie season from a fumble recovery ran for a TD.

Please drop Darius from this discussion because he's clearly not in the same league as any of the players like Reed, Dawkins, Williams, or Taylor.

 

[big dog cowboy]

I wish somebody would survey the other 31 GM's to see if they think Roy is over rated.

 

[peplaw06]

All the man asked for was one. Thanks for proving my point for me.

I didn't prove your point... I simply said it could be argued. I wouldn't argue it, but I guess you can... go ahead, but that's about the only one you could argue. By the end of Roy's career though, I figure the argument would be laughable.

 

[nchhalada333]

"Dallas Cowboys

Overrated: Williams is a good player when near the line of scrimmage, but he can't be called a top-tier safety because he struggles so much in coverage. He's a decent, not great player. His reputation would lead you to believe he was great. "


How come he cant be considered a great safety b/c he isnt the best at covering?

Thats like saying Peyton Manning isnt a great qb b/c he cant scramble at all and thats something a qb should be able to do some(rolls eyes).... or Emmitt Smith wasnt great b/c he didnt have lots of receptions... or Tiki Barber isnt good b/c he's not a power back...

Does nobody realize you can be great at what you do and that makes you great at that position? Roy is the most dominating safety near the box in the league.... he doesnt have to cover well, he isn't a coverage safety. He is meant to reak havok near the line..

Peyton Manning doesnt have to scramble bc he has great awareness and arm. He doesnt have to be a scrambler.

Tiki Barber doesnt have to be a power back, he is a balanced back. Thats what makes him so good, he can run and catch.



The media tends to overlook that Williams is a SS, and not meant to be covering Wr's one on one all that often. His role in the defense is what it is. He doesnt have to be great in coverage we just need a fs who is. Coverage is just one part of being a safety. Reading the field, sure tackler, awareness, mid range coverage, run stopping are all other parts of that.

So by the medias perception that since he has one downfall(that is made to be a lot worse than it is) he isnt great., he is "decent". So a runningback who can juke, who can break tackles, who is fast is just decent b/c they cant catch well? A WR who can catch, score td's and make big plays is decent b/c they cant block well?(randy moss anyone? everyone says he's great)

i can see where u are coming from but to be a safety u must do both, cover and takle in the box. To be a quarterback your first option is to pass then bail out and scramble. The Colts have a great line and receivers which allow Peyton to get rid of the ball quickly. He doesnt need to scramble. Roy needs to cover. If he doesnt then there will be a touchdown parade like Skins-Boys Game 1 in the last two min.

 

[Alexander]

I wish somebody would survey the other 31 GM's to see if they think Roy is over rated.

Since when does "overrated" equal "not good"?

Besides, the rating isn't coming from GMs. It is coming from popular opinion of the fanbase. I think Roy is overrated from the viewpoint of the fan. Ask any opposing fan to name a Dallas Cowboy. I guarantee the first name begins with an "R". He is a symbol of the team. Along with that status comes the natural tendency to overvalue his talent.

Most people would be shocked at how people who work in the industry view players. They certainly see it at a different level. How else can you explain how many fans are scratching their heads when we sign a player like Kyle Kosier and let an "elite" talent like Larry Allen leave?

I am sure that every GM/coach knows how good Roy Williams is. But I do believe that opinion falls slightly short of the excessively lofty opinion that most Dallas fans have of the player.

 

[TEK2000]

Since when does "overrated" equal "not good"?

Besides, the rating isn't coming from GMs. It is coming from popular opinion of the fanbase. I think Roy is overrated from the viewpoint of the fan. Ask any opposing fan to name a Dallas Cowboy. I guarantee the first name begins with an "R". He is a symbol of the team. Along with that status comes the natural tendency to overvalue his talent.

Most people would be shocked at how people who work in the industry view players. They certainly see it at a different level. How else can you explain how many fans are scratching their heads when we sign a player like Kyle Kosier and let an "elite" talent like Larry Allen leave?

I am sure that every GM/coach knows how good Roy Williams is. But I do believe that opinion falls slightly short of the excessively lofty opinion that most Dallas fans have of the player.

I disagree with you here.. there's not a GM in the NFL that wouldn't love to have 1 player generate as much revenue for the organization as Roy Williams does... meaning, MANY MANY GM's/Owners in the NFL would be chomping at the bit to get Roy just for the pure REVENUE he generates. His being among the best safeties in the league is an added bonus and greatly improves the product they put on the field.

Popular opinion at this point is to bash Roy Williams based on a handful of plays over the course of his career.

The "rating" is coming from Pete Prisco NOT THE "popular opinion" of THE FANS! PETE PRISCO... a medio who views Adrian Wilson to be a better safety than Roy Williams. Wilson, a guy with 8 sacks in 1 season is anointed to be among the best despite the fact that this 8 sack season was preceeded by 3 seasons of not having even TWO sacks in a single season. 100 tackles and 8 sacks in 1 statistical anamoly of a season does not a great safety make.
If he happened to discuss the likes of Brian Dawkins and Ed Reed being better than Roy... there's not much to argue there because all 3 are great players and among the very best in the league... but throwing in Wilson just shows his extreme bias and hatred.