Wimbley signs for 5 Years/35m - Spencer Blueprint?

[btcutter]

I disagree that Spencer is a better player. This is a passing league and Wimbley has better athleticism and better metrics in coverage than Spencer. Wimbley also has much better sack production and this is despite never playing with a premier pass rusher who requires constant double teams.

Dallas has dropped the ball on a very reasonable deal for a proven young vet pass rusher.

We now have to strike gold in the draft to improve the defense or bring in a vet pass rush specialist likely at 5M/yr in addition to Spencer's franchise tag cost which is $14Mish for next year alone - more than the guaranteed value of Wimbley's contract.

Our FO is seriously flawed.

It'll be interesting to see how Spencer and Wimbley perform over the next few years as it will give a good example of management's ineffectiveness in pro scouting (ditto for Livings versus Mathis).

Jerry and Stephen prove once again that they are in over their heads.

I hope the scouts pull out another great draft for us because we really need one.

I am not sure Wimbly is a better player. He has better DL in front than Spencer has which can make a huge difference for LB rushing passer.

 

[Jenky]

Spencer:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/10470/anthony-spencer

Last 3 years... 196 tackles, 8 FF, 10 passes defensed, 18 "stuffs" (very similar to TFL)

Wimbley:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/9599/kamerion-wimbley

Last 3 years... 190 tackles, 2 FF, 5 passes defensed, 12 "stuffs"

And Josh Ellis tweeted that Spencer has had more hurries too. I'm not really sure why you blindly called my entire post incorrect without doing any research.

Just curious as to why you are only posting the last 3 years of each player's career.

Perhaps and avg would be better or the least common denominator of years between the two?

 

[YosemiteSam]

Spencer:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/10470/anthony-spencer

Last 3 years... 196 tackles, 8 FF, 10 passes defensed, 18 "stuffs" (very similar to TFL)

Wimbley:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/9599/kamerion-wimbley

Last 3 years... 190 tackles, 2 FF, 5 passes defensed, 12 "stuffs"

And Josh Ellis tweeted that Spencer has had more hurries too. I'm not really sure why you blindly called my entire post incorrect without doing any research.

To adjust your stats for last year alone:

Spencer had 31 QB pressures and 8 tackles for a loss last year.

Wimbley only had 8 1/2 hurries last year. This says he had 7 1/2 tackles for a loss.

 

[YosemiteSam]

Just curious as to why you are only posting the last 3 years of each player's career.

Perhaps and avg would be better or the least common denominator of years between the two?

I can see your point in asking, but the last three years would be most applicable.

Both sets of numbers would be best though.

 

[YosemiteSam]

spencer doesn't have a contract.

What his number may or may not be is irrelevant because what it is is 9m

Average value is meaningless by the way. Cap number is all that matters.

Do you argue with a walls? You are trying to rebut my statement, but using a theory that isn't even relevant to my point in the first place. You are completely missing the point of what I was talking about when I made the statement!

Damn dude!

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Dude, I'm talking about value per year for a player. Not the single year franchise tag price. You're looking at it in a box. I'm talking about if you resign Spencer for a contract of similar length.



It's out there. I'm not the only person here that knows this. Except for several *fans*screaming for Cordy Glenn, that is all you've heard. The Cowboys don't talk about him and they certainly haven't made any gestures towards Glenn as if they had interest in drafting him.

There are several guys here that have inside information. Ask them if the Cowboys have shown interest in Glenn. They haven't. They don't want a 350lbs mauling OL. They are going after smaller more athletic linemen.

I have not seen that NYC. I saw this last year but not since Callahan has been hired. I would be welcome to see any kind of info that suggest this.

If you look at his lines over the years, they are not small.

1995 Philly
Barrett Brooks, Guy McIntyre, Raliegh McKenzie, Joe Panos, Antonio Davis.
1996 Philly
Barrett Brooks, Joe Panoes, Raliegh McKenzie, Lester Holmes, Richard Cooper
1997 Philly
Jermaine Mayberry, Joe Panos, Steve Everitt, Ian Beckless, Barrett Brooks.

1998 Oakland
Pat Harlow, Steve Wisiniewski, Barrett Robbins, Derrick Graham, Lincoln Kennedy
1999 Oakland
Pat Harlow, Steve Wisiniewski, BArrett Robbins, Genaro DiNapoli, Lincoln Kennedy
2000 Oakland
Matt Stinchcomb, Steve Wisniewski, Barrett Robbins, Mo Collins, Lincoln Kennedy
2001 Oakland
Barry Sims, Steve Wisniewski, Adam True, Frank Middleton, Lincoln Kennedy
2002 Oakland
Same as 2001
2003 Oakland
Same as 2001
2008 Jets
D'Brick, Alan Feneca, Nick Mangold, Brandon Moore, Damian Woody
2009 Jets
Same as 2008
2010 Jets
D'Brick, Matt Slauson, Nick Mangold, Brandon Moore, Damian Woody
2011 Jets
D'Brick, Matt Slauson, Nick Mangold, Brandon Moore, Wayne Hunter

As I look at these lines, they are not small.

 

[burmafrd]

pressures or hurries - a very SUBJECTIVE stat. What is a pressure on one QB is not on another. I ignore those kinds of stats since you can pick 5 different people and get 5 different numbers.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Spencer:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/10470/anthony-spencer

Last 3 years... 196 tackles, 8 FF, 10 passes defensed, 18 "stuffs" (very similar to TFL)

Wimbley:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/9599/kamerion-wimbley

Last 3 years... 190 tackles, 2 FF, 5 passes defensed, 12 "stuffs"

And Josh Ellis tweeted that Spencer has had more hurries too. I'm not really sure why you blindly called my entire post incorrect without doing any research.

This is BS in it's surest forum. Any of you who claim different are refusing to see the facts for what they are. Last three years? Try looking at all of the years and tell me what you see. Never mind that for the last three years, Wmbley has been playing OLB in a 43 and not OLB in a 34.

Wimbley's job is to play in space in a 43. Spencer's job is to play on the line and stop the run in our 34.

You guys are honestly going to try and sell this?

 

[TheCount]

Sack wise? Yes. As an overall player. No he isn't. Not only that, Wimbley is not only inconsistent against the run, his pass rush is inconsistent.

There is a reason Wimbley is bouncing around the league and Spencer hasn't.

Spencer is a better overall player than Wimbley.

He was cut because of the Raider's cap situation. I don't see how he's "bouncing around", he's played for two teams before the Titans.

As far as his inconsistencies, are you suggesting Spencer is consistent?

 

[Doomsday101]

This is BS in it's surest forum. Any of you who claim different are refusing to see the facts for what they are. Last three years? Try looking at all of the years and tell me what you see. Never mind that for the last three years, Wmbley has been playing OLB in a 43 and not OLB in a 34.

Wimbley's job is to play in space in a 43. Spencer's job is to play on the line and stop the run in our 34.

You guys are honestly going to try and sell this?

Not selling anything I think both are good solid players not elite they fall in the same category for me. If you think Wimblery is a bit better fine no issue with that but in my view that are not that much different.

 

[speedkilz88]

This is BS in it's surest forum. Any of you who claim different are refusing to see the facts for what they are. Last three years? Try looking at all of the years and tell me what you see. Never mind that for the last three years, Wmbley has been playing OLB in a 43 and not OLB in a 34.

Wimbley's job is to play in space in a 43. Spencer's job is to play on the line and stop the run in our 34.

You guys are honestly going to try and sell this?

And you think a guy that has been playing OLB in a 4-3 can line up on the line of scrimmage in a 3-4 easily? Are you honestly trying to sell that? Wimbley can't do the things Spencer can from the SOLB position in a 3-4. He would have to play the weak side.

 

[YosemiteSam]

He was cut because of the Raider's cap situation. I don't see how he's "bouncing around", he's played for two teams before the Titans.

As far as his inconsistencies, are you suggesting Spencer is consistent?

Actually, except for that rash of sacks at the end of the season a couple of years ago. Consistent has been Spencer's middle name. Consistently stopping the run, consistently getting QB pressures, and consistently not getting sacks. :laugh2:

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Not selling anything I think both are good solid players not elite they fall in the same category for me. If you think Wimblery is a bit better fine no issue with that but in my view that are not that much different.

Fine, but don't try to say that Spencer is better against the run or has more pressures or what have you. That's just not the truth of the matter. I don't believe both are fine players. I believe Wimbley is a player that can get pressure and Spencer is not. We can get somebody to play the run for a lot less then 8 Million a year. We could have gotten a guy who could generate actual sacks production for 7 million per year and that, I don't understand.

QBs don't fear guys who get pressures. They fear guys who sack them and put them on their butts. I guess I just don't know what else to say. Spencer is not better against the run statistically. He is not better in the passing game. He doesn't play in space so I don't even think you can say that he is better in pass defense. I don't see how they are comparable.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

And you think a guy that has been playing OLB in a 4-3 can line up on the line of scrimmage in a 3-4 easily? Are you honestly trying to sell that? Wimbley can't do the things Spencer can from the SOLB position in a 3-4. He would have to play the weak side.

I know he can. He's done it before and had success. This is the problem. Why would any of us want Wimbley to do the things Spencer has done? Why on earth would anybody want that? We've seen the results of that. Why would you want that? You want a guy who can get a step and get to the QB. This is what we should all want. Your name is speedkilz. Well does it or not? I agree with your name. I think it does.

 

[Doomsday101]

Fine, but don't try to say that Spencer is better against the run or has more pressures or what have you. That's just not the truth of the matter. I don't believe both are fine players. I believe Wimbley is a player that can get pressure and Spencer is not. We can get somebody to play the run for a lot less then 8 Million a year. We could have gotten a guy who could generate actual sacks production for 7 million per year and that, I don't understand.

QBs don't fear guys who get pressures. They fear guys who sack them and put them on their butts. I guess I just don't know what else to say. Spencer is not better against the run statistically. He is not better in the passing game. He doesn't play in space so I don't even think you can say that he is better in pass defense. I don't see how they are comparable.

I did not say that I said they are simular players the contract that Wimbley got is about what Spencer should get if the tag is removed. In the end I don't see either guy as some elite player they are good players nothing more, nothing less. Anyone trying to build either one of these guys as some elite player has their own agenda.

As for sacks it is still a team game and frankly Dallas gets no push up the middle as I saw in Oakland and that will make any outside rush more effective. I don't see the issue as the outside rusher I see a lack up the gut and as long as the QB has the room to step up in the pocket it will be harder for the outside rushers

 

[speedkilz88]

I know he can. He's done it before and had success. This is the problem. Why would any of us want Wimbley to do the things Spencer has done? Why on earth would anybody want that? We've seen the results of that. Why would you want that? You want a guy who can get a step and get to the QB. This is what we should all want. Your name is speedkilz. Well does it or not? I agree with your name. I think it does.

No he didn't, he was a weakside guy and Cleveland traded him away. The guy in no shape or form is a strongside LB in a 3-4. He would get blown off the ball. His tackle numbers are inflated because he's been playing in a 4-3.

 

[FLcowboy]

I disagree that Spencer is a better player. This is a passing league and Wimbley has better athleticism and better metrics in coverage than Spencer. Wimbley also has much better sack production and this is despite never playing with a premier pass rusher who requires constant double teams.

Dallas has dropped the ball on a very reasonable deal for a proven young vet pass rusher.

We now have to strike gold in the draft to improve the defense or bring in a vet pass rush specialist likely at 5M/yr in addition to Spencer's franchise tag cost which is $14Mish for next year alone - more than the guaranteed value of Wimbley's contract.

Our FO is seriously flawed.

It'll be interesting to see how Spencer and Wimbley perform over the next few years as it will give a good example of management's ineffectiveness in pro scouting (ditto for Livings versus Mathis).

Jerry and Stephen prove once again that they are in over their heads.

I hope the scouts pull out another great draft for us because we really need one.

Spencer usually lines up on the strong side, thus, taking on the responsibility of the tight end. When the tight end stays in to block, Spencer gets to fight him off as well as the tackle. All this talk of Spencer being no good, or marginal at best, is because his stats are not as good as Ware. Ware is on record of stating he wants Spencer back. Spencer's contribution is different on defense, and frankly, he isn't the problem a lot of people think he is.

The front office has made several moves in free agency that are going to make this team better. I'm confident the trend will continue into the draft.

 

[CowboysLaw87]

This is BS in it's surest forum. Any of you who claim different are refusing to see the facts for what they are. Last three years? Try looking at all of the years and tell me what you see. Never mind that for the last three years, Wmbley has been playing OLB in a 43 and not OLB in a 34.

Wimbley's job is to play in space in a 43. Spencer's job is to play on the line and stop the run in our 34.

You guys are honestly going to try and sell this?

Why wouldn't I use the last 3 years? The last 3 years is a large enough sample size to be accurate, and a small enough one to not take into account the years where Spencer wasn't even a starter. He wasn't our full time starter until 2009. That's like asking me to take into account the last 5 years of Aaron Rodgers's numbers... his averages would take quite the artificial hit when taking into account the time he spent on the bench, no?

Also I don't really understand your tackles argument. Generally LB's in a 4-3 get more tackles. The ILB is bumped into the "A-gap" in a 4-3, allowing the OLB to collect "B-gap" tackles. In a 3-4, the ILB's are set up in the "B-gap."

I'm not trying to say Spencer is a world beater and Wimbley sucks, but the statistics simply don't support your argument. You can argue that the statistics are lying, but you can't argue that the statistics aren't there. You originally said that Spencer produces far fewer tackles... not true.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

No he didn't, he was a weakside guy and Cleveland traded him away. The guy in no shape or form is a strongside LB in a 3-4. He would get blown off the ball. His tackle numbers are inflated because he's been playing in a 4-3.

You never answered the speed question. I guess you don't believe that it's true?


This is what I responded to. "And you think a guy that has been playing OLB in a 4-3 can line up on the line of scrimmage in a 3-4 easily? "

His tackle numbers should be less because he is not playing close to the LOS and his responsibility, especially as the ROLB in a 43 is not to make the majority of the tackles. In that scheme, it's the MLB who does that. His numbers are not inflated because he is playing OLB in a 43. That suggests that he is making numbers in spite of the scheme.

You don't have to be a speed bump in a 34. We don't have to only expect the SOLB to eat blocks in a 34 scheme. Wimbley came into the league as a 6-3 245 OLB. He isn't that player any longer. He's a bigger, stronger player. I don't know how you can say with any certainty that he can't play SOLB in a 34. I guess if all you want out of him is to take on the Tackle or the Guard and stop the run, maybe this is the conclusion you come to. I don't.

 

[speedkilz88]

You never answered the speed question. I guess you don't believe that it's true?


This is what I responded to. "And you think a guy that has been playing OLB in a 4-3 can line up on the line of scrimmage in a 3-4 easily? "

His tackle numbers should be less because he is not playing close to the LOS and his responsibility, especially as the ROLB in a 43 is not to make the majority of the tackles. In that scheme, it's the MLB who does that. His numbers are not inflated because he is playing OLB in a 43. That suggests that he is making numbers in spite of the scheme.

You don't have to be a speed bump in a 34. We don't have to only expect the SOLB to eat blocks in a 34 scheme. Wimbley came into the league as a 6-3 245 OLB. He isn't that player any longer. He's a bigger, stronger player. I don't know how you can say with any certainty that he can't play SOLB in a 34. I guess if all you want out of him is to take on the Tackle or the Guard and stop the run, maybe this is the conclusion you come to. I don't.

How about Rob Ryan didn't think he could play in his scheme? You can't seem to wrap your head around the fact that he was traded away. He did not fit that scheme even though he got to play the easier weak side. And you apparently don't know jack about defenses because a 4-3 OLB should get a lot more tackles than a 3-4 OLB. The 4-3 set up to allow their guys to run to the ball without having a man directly on them. The 3-4 SOLB has to deal with the TE, RT, and also the RB.