"Win-or-go-home" from a team point of view

[DanteEXT]

It could be because no QB in the NFL that's posted a 90+ passer rating has more turnovers especially ill-timed turnovers than Romo. I haven't researched it but that could explain at least part of the reason why.

Ummm, I don't want to get in the middle of this big back and forth but I have to ask....wouldn't all turnovers technically be "ill-timed"? I can't think of when a turnover would be considered good-timed.

 

[KJJ]

I don't actually know how many turnovers are attributed to the QBs of the league in toto. Don't care. There are many ways to turn the ball over on either offense or STs which you are ignoring. There are ways to not get turnovers on D and then you're also ignoring turnovers caused by your defense. It is turnover differential we're talking about which is a team stat. Of course if your QB has no pocket presence and is getting hit with fumbles or strips, throwing INTs constantly that are on him, and mishandling snaps and handoffs then you have a turnover machine in the negative sense. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that or measure it.

Since Romo's INT% is around 2.5 then he's not excessively turning the ball over although no one who watches the Cowboys are going to argue that Romo needs to protect the ball better. I've stated his INT% needs to be about 1/2 that. And he's had better seasons and his stats, like Brady, have improved over time.

But I feel you are going down with the ship on this one and I don't have much to add further.

Like I keep saying I'm focusing on Romo's elimination games where he has 12 turnovers. No way can any team overcome 12 turnovers in 6 elimination games. He has 8 turnovers in his 3 season finale elimination game losses. In 4 of his 6 elimination games losses he had multiple turnovers. Not saying they were all on him but some clearly were and they impacted those games did they not? From Dec/Jan 06 to 08 his resume is littered with turnovers. His TD to turnover ratio was 16-24 and the Cowboys Dec/Jan record those 3 seasons was 5-10. Again I'm NOT putting "all" the blame on Romo no matter how many times some try and spin it that way but as the QB he's partially responsible for the teams struggles. I not going down with any ship that's just the take you have because you don't agree with me.

Anything that doesn't shed a positive light on Romo is going to be dumped on by FANS. If some of you were right the perception of Romo wouldn't be what it is and he wouldn't be receiving so much disrespect outside Cowboys Nation. FANS here spend most of their time tearing apart the games of SB winning QB's while talking up Romo's passer rating stats and trying to exonerate him from any of the blame for his lack of elimination game success.

 

[KJJ]

Ummm, I don't want to get in the middle of this big back and forth but I have to ask....wouldn't all turnovers technically be "ill-timed"? I can't think of when a turnover would be considered good-timed.

An early turnover can be overcome when you have 3 quarters of football to play but a turnover occurring with less than a minute to play with a game is on the line can't be overcome. Those are what's referred to as "ill-timed" turnovers.

 

[jobberone]

Like I keep saying I'm focusing on Romo's elimination games where he has 12 turnovers. No way can any team overcome 12 turnovers in 6 elimination games. He has 8 turnovers in his 3 season finale elimination game losses. In 4 of his 6 elimination games losses he had multiple turnovers. Not saying they were all on him but some clearly were and they impacted those games did they not? From Dec/Jan 06 to 08 his resume is littered with turnovers. His TD to turnover ratio was 16-24 and the Cowboys Dec/Jan record those 3 seasons was 5-10. Again I'm NOT putting "all" the blame on Romo no matter how many times some try and spin it that way but as the QB he's partially responsible for the teams struggles. I not going down with any ship that's just the take you have because you don't agree with me.

Anything that doesn't shed a positive light on Romo is going to be dumped on by FANS. If some of you were right the perception of Romo wouldn't be what it is and he wouldn't be receiving so much disrespect outside Cowboys Nation. FANS here spend most of their time tearing apart the games of SB winning QB's while talking up Romo's passer rating stats and trying to exonerate him from any of the blame for his lack of elimination game success.

You keep repeating yourself while avoiding what others are pointing out. I said you were right and focused on turnover differential rather than TD/INT ratio. I'm not dismissing TD/INT ration at all. A QBs turnovers in a game still go right into the other turnovers and turnover differential which is a better way to look at it. I've also said it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see a turnover machine which Tony isn't. You've constantly focused on a few convenient facts while ignoring a plethora of facts that don't fit your agenda. And you don't respond to others' points other than to continue to come back to the same thing over and over. I realize that's all you have but that doesn't negate the points I made above. There is no point in my discussing this further. Have a great evening and weekend.

 

[Aurican]

Not at all, and Romo performed well as usual during the season(still a down year). Romo did have his usual couple of games were he didn't show up, but every QB in this league has bad games. Just they actually have a team to pick up that slack when their QB isn't performing, and with Dallas you can just forget about it. For the past couple years it's just been that, not much help from the supporting cast.

What about the Superbowl? Anything can happen once you get in. I sure as heck would've rather of been in the playoffs and had a chance at a superbowl, instead of not even making it into the playoffs.

So you honestly believe that if we got more support from our running game and our defense last year we still don't make the playoffs?

Sorry but Romo has had enough around him in the past to get further than a single playoff win, he has had a running game, a defense and playmakers at skill positions, this past season he wins the Washington game if he doesn't throw 3 interceptions. I have no confidence in him making a playoff run to a Superbowl without having one of his turnover fests and sinking the team with him, hopefully I'm wrong but I don't see it.

 

[KJJ]

You keep repeating yourself while avoiding what others are pointing out. I said you were right and focused on turnover differential rather than TD/INT ratio. I'm not dismissing TD/INT ration at all. A QBs turnovers in a game still go right into the other turnovers and turnover differential which is a better way to look at it. I've also said it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see a turnover machine which Tony isn't. You've constantly focused on a few convenient facts while ignoring a plethora of facts that don't fit your agenda. And you don't respond to others' points other than to continue to come back to the same thing over and over. I realize that's all you have but that doesn't negate the points I made above. There is no point in my discussing this further. Have a great evening and weekend.

I really don't care what the others are pointing out. I've had arguments with several of them who've pointed out all sorts of things on other topics and none of them have ever ended up being right about anything. By the way hope your boy Parnell picks it up in camp. I'm talking about TD to "turnover" ratio and that takes in int's AND lost fumbles. Romo has 12 turnovers in 6 elimination games do you consider that moderate? In 15 Dec/Jan games from 06 to 08 Romo had 24 turnovers. Exactly how many turnovers does a QB have to have to be considered a turnover machine in your opinion?

Last season Romo tied his career high with 19 int's which was one more int than Mark Sanchez had last season. Eli's had the same turnover issue but when he's avoided them in the make or break games it's led to division titles, playoff wins and championships. In Eli's 3 playoff losses his TD to turnover ratio was 2-7. Everything I keep repeating is why many experts and fans have a negative perception of Romo. I respond to everyones points (or what they perceive to be a point) only to watch them spin mine or respond to my questions with a question in an attempt to divert. If these so called points that are being made by others were valid Romo wouldn't get dumped on so much.

 

[KJJ]

It's the points I've repeatedly made that have given Romo the reputation he has. He's a very good regular season QB no disputing that but many outside Cowboys Nation and some inside have a negative perception of him because of his less than stellar performances in make or break games. What happened in Washington in week 17 last season only reinforced this negative perception many have of him. It's unfortunate but it's the truth. This perception isn't going to change until he starts having some playoff success and wins a ring.

 

[dstovall5]

It's the points I've repeatedly made that have given Romo the reputation he has. He's a very good regular season QB no disputing that but many outside Cowboys Nation and some inside have a negative perception of him because of his less than stellar performances in make or break games. What happened in Washington in week 17 last season only reinforced this negative perception many have of him. It's unfortunate but it's the truth. This perception isn't going to change until he starts having some playoff success and wins a ring.

I'm sure most can care less what the media think about Romo, half of them are just morons who makes idiotic statements (in general) to get reactions out of people. Our QBs for the most part will always have a negative perception, we're the most hated in the league by other fans, but we're also the most loved - America's team.
A lot of fans outside of Dallas think we should cut Tony Romo, because they don't see the dude play that much and they constantly listen to the media. I can't tell you how much I've heard that we should get rid of Tony Romo and he's the reason for all of our problems, it's just sickening. Funny thing is I hear a lot of this stuff from people who actually play the game of football. Though, most of these guys IQ are barely above 70 most likely.

 

[KJJ]

I'm sure most can care less what the media think about Romo, half of them are just morons who makes idiotic statements (in general) to get reactions out of people. Our QBs for the most part will always have a negative perception, we're the most hated in the league by other fans, but we're also the most loved - America's team.
A lot of fans outside of Dallas think we should cut Tony Romo, because they don't see the dude play that much and they constantly listen to the media. I can't tell you how much I've heard that we should get rid of Tony Romo and he's the reason for all of our problems, it's just sickening. Funny thing is I hear a lot of this stuff from people who actually play the game of football. Though, most of these guys IQ are barely above 70 most likely.

Don't kid yourself most here care what the media says they won't admit it but they do. This is why we see threads from FANS ripping the media everytime they say or write anything negative about Romo. They all look like morons making idiotic statements when their views don't shine a positive light on Romo. Every discussion about Romo is going to include the good and the bad with him. Many in the media are former NFL players, coaches and GM's but according to FANS here they're idiots who don't know what the hell they're talking about unless of course it's all good about Romo. There were Cowboy fans on this board who thought we should cut Romo after last season and many wanted to trade him to KC. Some fans of other teams outside Dallas who don't follow the Cowboys real closely have the worst perception of Romo because all they see are his real bad plays that are highlighted repeatedly. There's some out there that don't realize how good he really is because all they see and hear is the bad.

A friend of mine mentioned Romo in front of his wife who doesn't follow football and she said "isn't Romo the guy who messes up a lot?" It all comes back to the perception many have of Romo that started in Seattle in 06 with bobbled snap. His bad plays have been heavily scrutinized mostly because they've occurred in elimination games. Those are the plays that stick with fans. Some fans don't even realize that Jackie Smith was a great HOF player because all they know him for is that drooped TD pass in the SB 34 years ago. If the bobbled snap in Seattle during the 06 playoffs happened in week 5 of the regular season that year no one would even remember it but unfortunately it's the play that's defined Romo's career thus far.

One thing I do know is sometimes you have to go through bad times to get to the good times whether it's in sports or anything else. If you keep plugging away, be persistent and maintain your enthusiasm something good will eventually happen if you have talent. Romo has beaten a lot of long odds just to become a starting NFL QB after being an undrafted FA. He's only one of about 7-8 undrafted FA QB's in NFL history to become a viable NFL starting QB. There's still hope that the football Gods will shine down on him someday he's certainly paid his dues.

 

[dstovall5]

Don't kid yourself most here care what the media says they won't admit it but they do. This is why we see threads from FANS ripping the media everytime they say or write anything negative about Romo. They all look like morons making idiotic statements when their views don't shine a positive light on Romo.

I was just talking in general about the media, not just when they talk about Romo, I occasionally watch NFL Network, First Take, or the early radio shows (cowherd/mike&mike) and some of the stuff they say is just bizarre. Like for example, just recently Skip said Aaron Rodgers should donate his salary for this year due to him backing R.Braun and tweeting that he would bet "his salary for next year" on R.Braun's innocence. Stuff like that is a idiotic statement, and they (the media) only say crap like that to get reactions.

Every discussion about Romo is going to include the good and the bad with him. Many in the media are former NFL players, coaches and GM's but according to FANS here they're idiots who don't know what the hell they're talking about unless of course it's all good about Romo.

This is also one of the reason's there are a lot of idiotic statements, it's not that those former players aren't smart or don't know Football, it's just they're so biased they say some of the stupidest horse crap. Again, talking in general here, not just on Romo.

There were Cowboy fans on this board who thought we should cut Romo after last season and many wanted to trade him to KC. Some fans of other teams outside Dallas who don't follow the Cowboys real closely have the worst perception of Romo because all they see are his real bad plays that are highlighted repeatedly. There's some out there that don't realize how good he really is because all they see and hear is the bad.

That's fair, but if we did that then D.Ware, M.Austin, B.Carr, J.Witten, and plenty of the other guys can go out the door right behind him since we would be starting over from scratch. Also I think he would do a heck of a lot better in KC then Dallas, at least there he'd actually have some help and wouldn't be forced to carry the whole load. I think KC could make the playoffs this year or get very close with A.Smith at the helm, they're not a bad team IMO just missing some pieces.

Also, I honestly think fans underestimate how hard it is to find that "right guy" to take over your team, because QBs just don't grow on trees. Teams have been very fortunate lately on hitting on some gems for QBs, and it's not a given we'd be able to do the same if Romo left. We could easily end up in the same boat as the Bills, Arizona, Raiders, Jets, or the Browns. Then if that happens we waste our young talent like D.Bryant, S.Lee, M.Claiborne, and etc;

A friend of mine mentioned Romo in front of his wife who doesn't follow football and she said "isn't Romo the guy who messes up a lot?" It all comes back to the perception many have of Romo that started in Seattle in 06 with bobbled snap. His bad plays have been heavily scrutinized mostly because they've occurred in elimination games. Those are the plays that stick with fans. Some fans don't even realize that Jackie Smith was a great HOF player because all they know him for is that drooped TD pass in the SB 34 years ago. If the bobbled snap in Seattle during the 06 playoffs happened in week 5 of the regular season that year no one would even remember it but unfortunately it's the play that's defined Romo's career thus far.

The media will bash Romo for anything they can, though he has brought some of it on himself (playing poorly in crucial games), a lot of it is uncalled for and it's just them being ruthless. Like the bobbled snap, that's on coaching because Romo should've NEVER been put into that situation. Also, you don't hear the same stuff with M.Ryan down in Atlanta, and he's in a similar position as Romo.

One thing I do know is sometimes you have to go through bad times to get to the good times whether it's in sports or anything else. If you keep plugging away, be persistent and maintain your enthusiasm something good will eventually happen if you have talent. Romo has beaten a lot of long odds just to become a starting NFL QB after being an undrafted FA. He's only one of about 7-8 undrafted FA QB's in NFL history to become a viable NFL starting QB. There's still hope that the football Gods will shine down on him someday he's certainly paid his dues.

I hope that's the case man, this is probably the most I've ever been looking forward to the season. I honestly think we put it all together this year barring injuries, our defense definitely has me optimistic especially since we'll have back key components healthy. *crosses fingers*

 

[IrishAnto]

A great defense is not going to be able to carry an average QB through 3-4 games in postseason in this era. There hasn't been an average QB win a SB since 2003 when Brad Johnson was carried by the Bucs running game and defense. Every SB winning QB since 2004 is building a HOF resume except for Joe Flacco and he could possibly finish his career with a HOF resume if he wins 2 more SB's. The last 6 SB's have come down to QB's having to make plays to pull the game out in the final minutes and an average QB won't be able to get it done in that situation. They need to be in a situation where they can manage the game not have to win it.

And there hasn't been a great defense since 2000, so my point still stands.

 

[IrishAnto]

There's a correlation but as I've stated the "performance" of your QB is the most important element in winning games. Even the great 85 Bears defense couldn't stop one of the great pure passers in NFL history. It's hard for any pass defense to defense a great throw or CATCH see the 81 NFC title game.

And your QB performance will be mirrored by the performance of your opponents pass defense.
If your QB throws 3 picks, then it’s likely he’s had a bad game and conversely our opponents pass defense a good game.
Conversely if your QB throws 4 TDs the opposite is true.
You don’t get one without the other.

 

[IrishAnto]

Part of a pass defense is defending a receiver. LOL It was the throw and the catch that made that play happen. Not even heavy pressure on the QB by a 6' 9" defender and good coverage could prevent that play.

It wasn't a great throw, but it was a great catch.
Hence the moniker.

 

[DejectedFan1996]

Ummm, I don't want to get in the middle of this big back and forth but I have to ask....wouldn't all turnovers technically be "ill-timed"? I can't think of when a turnover would be considered good-timed.

The problem is, Romo's turnovers come at the worst possible time in his elimination games. Those two INTS at the beginning of the Washington game wouldn't have been as big of a deal if he doesn't throw the gut-wrenching pick with 2 minutes left and we're down by 3. This is the part a passer rating does not tell the whole story. It doesn't tell you how momentum may have been shifted due to an INT/fumble. So what happens is, as KJJ has pointed out, people will continue to bring up Romo's passer ratings/regular season stats to counter anything negative said about him. The fact that people have to go through such dire lengths to defend him pretty much says it all. Outside of this forum, I'm Romo's biggest defender, especially in my barbershop. But after Washington, even I have to admit now that he deserves some of the blame along with the team.

I mean think about this for a second: What a lot of people are saying on this forum, mainly this topic, is that EVERYONE outside of this forum who has their opinion of Romo is a "moron" or idiot while everyone on CowboysZone is the opposite? No one is an idiot for having their opinions but perception is reality. Romo helped reinforce this perception in Washington last year. He was getting much praise for leading us into that game, the "haters" couldn't deny it. But when that last INT came on first down, the perception came right back full circle.

Not to derail this thread, but I've seen a few people post in regards to "we'd be 4-12 without Romo." I understand 8-8 is better, but in all honesty, is 4-12 that much worse? It seems like being stagnant at mediocre leaves us no room to improve i.e. picking in the middle of the draft.

 

[DanteEXT]

An early turnover can be overcome when you have 3 quarters of football to play but a turnover occurring with less than a minute to play with a game is on the line can't be overcome. Those are what's referred to as "ill-timed" turnovers.

I do not remember all of Romo's turnovers. I am sure he has contributed some 'ill timed' turnovers by that criteria. Unfortunately, I cannot think of any off the top of my head.

 

[DanteEXT]

The problem is, Romo's turnovers come at the worst possible time in his elimination games. Those two INTS at the beginning of the Washington game wouldn't have been as big of a deal if he doesn't throw the gut-wrenching pick with 2 minutes left and we're down by 3. This is the part a passer rating does not tell the whole story. It doesn't tell you how momentum may have been shifted due to an INT/fumble. So what happens is, as KJJ has pointed out, people will continue to bring up Romo's passer ratings/regular season stats to counter anything negative said about him. The fact that people have to go through such dire lengths to defend him pretty much says it all. Outside of this forum, I'm Romo's biggest defender, especially in my barbershop. But after Washington, even I have to admit now that he deserves some of the blame along with the team.

I mean think about this for a second: What a lot of people are saying on this forum, mainly this topic, is that EVERYONE outside of this forum who has their opinion of Romo is a "moron" or idiot while everyone on CowboysZone is the opposite? No one is an idiot for having their opinions but perception is reality. Romo helped reinforce this perception in Washington last year. He was getting much praise for leading us into that game, the "haters" couldn't deny it. But when that last INT came on first down, the perception came right back full circle.

Not to derail this thread, but I've seen a few people post in regards to "we'd be 4-12 without Romo." I understand 8-8 is better, but in all honesty, is 4-12 that much worse? It seems like being stagnant at mediocre leaves us no room to improve i.e. picking in the middle of the draft.

Nitpicking, it was just over 3 minutes left.

Perception and reality are not always one and the same. That last pick was Romo's mistake. But I credit the Commanders D as well. They got the quick pressure up the middle forcing him to throw fading backwards off his back foot. I fault Romo for the pick for bad technique. I do not fault him for trying to make a play.

 

[percyhoward]

I've seen a few people post in regards to "we'd be 4-12 without Romo." I understand 8-8 is better, but in all honesty, is 4-12 that much worse?

I'll respond because I'm one of those people. Since the league went to a 16-game schedule, 4-12 is the average record of teams that have ranked 20th or lower in both defensive passer rating and rushing TD two years in a row. And Dallas has ranked no higher than 25th, so it's actually somewhere between 4-12 and 3-13.

I see the point you're trying to make. You're thinking, "4-12, 8-8, what's the difference? We need a QB who can carry this team out of mediocrity."

It's never happened. This fact is not publicized, but it has never happened in the history of pro football. You can find out if it has ever happened by looking at all the teams that ranked where Dallas did in those two categories I listed two seasons in a row. No such team has ever made it to 8-8 in consecutive seasons. In fact, no team since the 1995 Falcons has been able to do it even one of the two seasons.

Since 1995, there have been 0 winning seasons, 35 losing seasons, and two .500 seasons, both by the same team -- the 2011 and 2012 Dallas Cowboys.

It all comes down to understanding how much this team has relied on the passing game these last two years to even get to 8-8.

 

[Dodger]

...perception is reality.

Sorry, but this cliche has got to be one of the dumbest in the history of mankind.

People perceived that the Earth was the center of the universe and that the Earth was flat. Did perception make these beliefs true? Many people have a negative opinion about Romo because, just like the flat Earth crowd, they don't have all of the facts or care to even be bothered to dig a bit deeper. Someone once said that the Earth was flat, and everyone ate it up like candy. The same sort of thought process is in play regarding Romo.

How is this for reality: 263 yards rushing, 4TDs. Do you think that if the Cowboys were able to generate even half of Washington's numbers on the ground that Romo would still have thrown three interceptions in that game?

Some will call this an excuse and simply point at the three interceptions. I call it watching the game and understanding WHY that actually happened.

Just because some say Romo is a choker and that belief becomes fashionable to parrot on TV doesn't mean that it's true.

 

[jobberone]

Perception is reality for many. Others look more closely trying to perceive reality more objectionably.

 

[percyhoward]

Perception is reality for many. Others look more closely trying to perceive reality more objectionably.

It's funny how objectionable objectivity can be.