"Win-or-go-home" from a team point of view

[DanteEXT]

This discussion is about Romo's win or go home games those are the ones that have mattered the most and have garnered him the most criticism. His reputation has been built on those games because those are the games in which QB's earn their stripes and build their legacy. It's his performances in those small percentage of games that's caused many to have the negative perception they have of him. Sure he's come through in a high percentage of his other games (regular season) which is why he gets dumped on for not being able to come through when the games are down to do or die. An opening day game isn't do or die you have 15 games left.

How many "do or die" games did Joe Montana have the opportunity to pull out in the final minutes? Most QB's have a rather small sample size in that situation. Romo has been in 7 do or die games and in 3 of them had an opportunity to possibly win the game in the final minutes but one of those drives ended with a fumbled snap on a FG attempt and 2 others were stopped with int's. Before anyone comes screaming I'm not faulting Romo for the int vs the Giants in the 07 playoffs on the Cowboys last ditch drive. He was in a desperation situation and had no choice but to force a throw into the end zone but he did have the opportunity to win the game on that drive.



Your previous response left the impression you were putting it all on the defense. The defense and Romo lost that game agree or disagree? I don't excuse any penalty but the defense wouldn't have been on the field had Romo not turned the ball over.




Had that scenario played out the Cowboys 2012 team video would have been titled Return of the Living Dead.

Just because so far he hasn't, does not mean he can't or won't ever. That's why I mentioned the other games. We've seen him do it in general so he has the ability. Why I believe he will one day do it in a do or die game.

It's true that an opening day game is not do or die. But an opening day win instead of a loss, or a win in week 14 instead of a loss could turn that week 17 do or die into a rest your starters game.

No, I was not solely blaming the defense. Both Romo and the D had bad games that day, I agree.

 

[dstovall5]

To have an intelligent discussion about the Cowboys you have to take off your FAN caps, be honest and come to grips with the issues that have been holding the team back the last 3 seasons.

The most of us here do understand the issues of this TEAM, we just can't stand when others try to put MOST of the blame on Romo. We understand he has played poorly in critical moments, but we also understand our defense, o-line, and rushing game have been atrocious in just about every moment. If this team is ever going to get over the hump, they're gonna need a heck of a lot more production from the defense, o-line, and the rushing game. Tony Romo had a career year last year and guess what, we still went 8-8.

It's time for his surrounding players to step up their play, and honestly it seems like we're gonna see that happen this year. I'm very optimistic about what I've been hearing so far in camp, and honestly it seems our defense could potentially be one of our strengths. Though, only time will tell and we'll all have to wait and see.

Do you agree that we need OTHER players to step up their game to get over that hump, or do you think only Tony Romo has to elevate his game?

 

[ufcrules1]

Do you agree that we need OTHER players to step up their game to get over that hump, or do you think only Tony Romo has to elevate his game?

Yes, I agree that other players need to step up their game to get over the hump... AND Romo needs to also elevate his game as well. He is still making the same mistakes he did when he entered the league. He also needs to be mentally stronger in the win or go home games.

 

[dstovall5]

Yes, I agree that other players need to step up their game to get over the hump... AND Romo needs to also elevate his game as well. He is still making the same mistakes he did when he entered the league. He also needs to be mentally stronger in the win or go home games.

I agree that Romo does need to elevate his game to some extent, for the most part during the season Romo is great, but during critical moments he tends to make bone head mistakes. If he can just minimize those then I think that's plenty to make a deep play off run. Also, I think if the defense/rushing game step up this year any then that alone will cause some of his mistakes to disappear.

I'm sure most would agree he makes a lot of mistakes by trying to do too much, and taking some of the load off of him will help tremendously. It doesn't say anything bad about Romo's ability to lead a team at all, but expecting him to throw the ball 650 times with great success is asking a little too much IMO. I think he needs to stay around 30-35 PA a game to maximize his efficiency, and I think that's pretty much standard for all QBs. Unless you have a bus driver QB, then you don't want them touching the ball at all lol.

 

[KJJ]

The most of us here do understand the issues of this TEAM, we just can't stand when others try to put MOST of the blame on Romo. We understand he has played poorly in critical moments, but we also understand our defense, o-line, and rushing game have been atrocious in just about every moment. If this team is ever going to get over the hump, they're gonna need a heck of a lot more production from the defense, o-line, and the rushing game. Tony Romo had a career year last year and guess what, we still went 8-8.

It's time for his surrounding players to step up their play, and honestly it seems like we're gonna see that happen this year. I'm very optimistic about what I've been hearing so far in camp, and honestly it seems our defense could potentially be one of our strengths. Though, only time will tell and we'll all have to wait and see.

Do you agree that we need OTHER players to step up their game to get over that hump, or do you think only Tony Romo has to elevate his game?

What most FANS can't stand is the impression they get from the media and from fans like myself that all or most of the blame is being put on Romo. Some here are bent on giving their own take on every comment a few of us objective, opinionated fans make as well as from those in the media. I've had so many ridiculous things read into my comments it screams agenda. Even Aikman gets jabbed from FANS here for being objective and not a homer during Cowboy telecasts. One FAN cried Troy doesn't like the Cowboys anymore. Everyone who's clued up knows it takes a solid team effort to win games and your QB has to perform well. Some FANS here are on a mission to try and remove most if not all the blame from Romo for the Cowboys struggles. Some are using all kinds of statistics to show it's the "team" and that Romo has little to do with any of the losses. Sometimes he doesn't deserve any of the blame as was the case vs NO last season.

Anytime FANS try and defend Romo some use a plethora of passer rating stats to try and show that when the Cowboys win it's Romo and when they lose it's the team around him. If passer rating stats tied into winning championships Romo would have a fist full of rings and several HOF QB's wouldn't have any. It's very simple why the Cowboys have struggled the past 3 seasons. It's been the coaching and a defense that can't defend the run or the pass and can't create turnovers and it's been Romo's 12 turnovers in the Cowboys 6 elimination game losses. When you have a defense that can't force turnovers and a QB who commits a lot of them in win or go home games that's a recipe for losing. The only way the Cowboys will become a championship caliber team again is when the defense starts stepping and creating turnovers and Romo steps up and stops committing them in do or die games.

 

[IrishAnto]

It was thrown where only Clark could make the catch. It was the only throw Montana had in the face of a rush with the out stretched arms of a 6' 9" Too Tall Jones in his face. Bill Walsh told Montana just prior to the play that if he doesn't get what he wants to simply throw the ball away and it appears that's what Montana was doing but Clark went up and made the catch.

It looked like it was thrown where nobody could catch it, but Clark made the great play. The emphasis being on Clark.

 

[Idgit]

What most FANS can't stand is the impression they get from the media and from fans like myself that all or most of the blame is being put on Romo. Some here are bent on giving their own take on every comment a few of us objective, opinionated fans make as well as from those in the media. I've had so many ridiculous things read into my comments it screams agenda. Even Aikman gets jabbed from FANS here for being objective and not a homer during Cowboy telecasts. One FAN cried Troy doesn't like the Cowboys anymore. Everyone who's clued up knows it takes a solid team effort to win games and your QB has to perform well. Some FANS here are on a mission to try and remove most if not all the blame from Romo for the Cowboys struggles. Some are using all kinds of statistics to show it's the "team" and that Romo has little to do with any of the losses. Sometimes he doesn't deserve any of the blame as was the case vs NO last season.

Anytime FANS try and defend Romo some use a plethora of passer rating stats to try and show that when the Cowboys win it's Romo and when they lose it's the team around him. If passer rating stats tied into winning championships Romo would have a fist full of rings and several HOF QB's wouldn't have any. It's very simple why the Cowboys have struggled the past 3 seasons. It's been the coaching and a defense that can't defend the run or the pass and can't create turnovers and it's been Romo's 12 turnovers in the Cowboys 6 elimination game losses. When you have a defense that can't force turnovers and a QB who commits a lot of them in win or go home games that's a recipe for losing. The only way the Cowboys will become a championship caliber team again is when the defense starts stepping and creating turnovers and Romo steps up and stops committing them in do or die games.

If you think the statistics are about avoiding blame for the QB, then you're interpreting them incorrectly. I think the point is to find the most likely way to make the team better. When your QB is already playing at a very high level, and your ability to stop the other guy's QB from playing at a similar level is not very good, then it just makes a lot more sense to focus on making it tougher for the other team's passing game than it does to try to improve your own QB's already high level of play.

It has nothing to do with assigning blame. Or with agendas. Or with 'vocal' fans. And the ones upset with Troy are, by and large the same one that's are upset with Tony. You're right that turnover differential is what's getting us beat in close games. Pretty clearly, it's why we've changed defensive coordinators and has been the primary thrust for the defense this offseason. If you look at the offensive TOs from last season, 13 of the 19 happened in the first half of the season, coinciding with the early communication problems with the WRs and the massive juggling of the OL early. They did a lot to clean those up fairly dramatically in the second half--when the team, miraculously, started playing a lot better football.

However you want to characterize it, Tony Romo's is our QB, and his level of play is unlikely to change dramatically this year. If we're going to get better, it'll be with OL consistency, a more stable set of receivers, and with a defense that has been taught how to actually take the ball away. And the (great) statistics from this thread back that up pretty clearly.

 

[jobberone]

Tony has the rating and the YPA. He just needs to get his INT% down. And the team needs to increase its scoring% or rate on offense. RZ sucess needs to improve and we need more rushing TDs. On D we need to increase our success in the RZ and make more turnovers. This isn't rocket science and the stats just say score more on offense and decreasing their scoring. Another way to say it is for us to increase scoring from 23ppg to over 25 preferably around 30 and improve scoring D from 25ppg to 17. TOD needs to go towards 20+ and STs need to produce more. That's winning football and none of those goals are unreasonable for this team. Saying Romo chokes esp in big games is not objective at all and actually not true when you consider our record and our pass D and lack of TOs as well as Romo's 4th Qtr comebacks and GWDs.

 

[ufcrules1]

I agree that Romo does need to elevate his game to some extent, for the most part during the season Romo is great, but during critical moments he tends to make bone head mistakes. If he can just minimize those then I think that's plenty to make a deep play off run. Also, I think if the defense/rushing game step up this year any then that alone will cause some of his mistakes to disappear.

I'm sure most would agree he makes a lot of mistakes by trying to do too much, and taking some of the load off of him will help tremendously. It doesn't say anything bad about Romo's ability to lead a team at all, but expecting him to throw the ball 650 times with great success is asking a little too much IMO. I think he needs to stay around 30-35 PA a game to maximize his efficiency, and I think that's pretty much standard for all QBs. Unless you have a bus driver QB, then you don't want them touching the ball at all lol.

Great post, yes I'm on board with this line of thinking. I think he needs to tighten up a little bit more of the regular season too though. He had at least 2 blow up games again last year and some others he didn't show up to until late in the game. It would also be nice to see or hear Romo complain about the oline and running game. It almost feels like he is content to sling the ball 650 times. The team certainly needs to improve and lose the country club mentality. It's looking like some changes are in effect but as long as Jerry is in control I'm worried about the team.

 

[percyhoward]

The only way the Cowboys will become a championship caliber team again is when the defense starts stepping up and creating turnovers and Romo steps up and stops committing them in do or die games.

Eureka.

Might those two conditions for improvement also be cause and effect, in that order?

 

[5Stars]

Eureka.

Might those two conditions for improvement also be cause and effect, in that order?

lmao

What a concept! That is what a TEAM should do, that is why I say that KJJ argues with himself and does not even realize it!

lol lol lol

 

[KJJ]

Eureka.

Might those two conditions for improvement also be cause and effect, in that order?

Have you come up with an answer for these yet? You want me to answer questions answer mine. We all know all teams aren't the same some are more talented than others so should a HC be judged off their W/L and championship record? You don't seem to like the fact that Romo is being judged off his elimination game record and HC's who don't even throw a pass or make a tackle are judged off theirs. Is it fair that Vince Lombardi has his name engraved on the SB trophy and not his team when it was his players that won those championships? It's a fact that every HC is a product of their players primarily their QB agree or disagree?

Would Bill Walsh have had the success he did without Montana? Would Belichick be the coach he is today had Tom Brady not come along? Would Landry have ever won a championship without Staubach? Is it fair that a HC is judged and honored with a HOF fame induction because of their regular and postseason W/L record? Some coaches are labeled geniuses because they had great players and a special QB who could pull out victories in the final seconds of championships games.

 

[KJJ]

If you think the statistics are about avoiding blame for the QB, then you're interpreting them incorrectly. I think the point is to find the most likely way to make the team better. When your QB is already playing at a very high level, and your ability to stop the other guy's QB from playing at a similar level is not very good, then it just makes a lot more sense to focus on making it tougher for the other team's passing game than it does to try to improve your own QB's already high level of play.

It has nothing to do with assigning blame. Or with agendas. Or with 'vocal' fans. And the ones upset with Troy are, by and large the same one that's are upset with Tony. You're right that turnover differential is what's getting us beat in close games. Pretty clearly, it's why we've changed defensive coordinators and has been the primary thrust for the defense this offseason. If you look at the offensive TOs from last season, 13 of the 19 happened in the first half of the season, coinciding with the early communication problems with the WRs and the massive juggling of the OL early. They did a lot to clean those up fairly dramatically in the second half--when the team, miraculously, started playing a lot better football.

However you want to characterize it, Tony Romo's is our QB, and his level of play is unlikely to change dramatically this year. If we're going to get better, it'll be with OL consistency, a more stable set of receivers, and with a defense that has been taught how to actually take the ball away. And the (great) statistics from this thread back that up pretty clearly.

Some of the stats that are being posted are clearly an attempt to put most if not all the blame on Romo's supporting cast. His supporting cast has received most of the blame in this thread. Like I said for the Cowboys to improve the defense has to improve and start forcing turnovers and Romo has to stop committing them in win or go home games. In Romo's 7 elimination games his TD to turnover ratio is 8-12 and the TD to turnover ratio of the opposing QB's is 14-2. Only one opposing QB suffered turnovers in those 7 elimination games and he only escaped with a win mostly due to the biggest mistake in Romo's career the ill-timed fumbled snap in Seattle. Yes the Cowboys defense only forced 2 turnovers but some of that has to be credited to the opposing QB's for being smart with the football. Some of Romo's turnovers could have been prevented had he been smart with the football and protected it. He had a lost fumble vs Philly in 08 that resulted in a scoop and score. He had 2 lost fumbles vs Minn that were on him for not protecting the football. Take the sack but don't fumble! Not all his turnovers were on him but most were. His decision making has always been under scrutiny. Turnovers have been a trend with Romo in do or die games and this trend has to stop because the Cowboys are unlikely to ever have a good enough team that overcome multiple turnovers in elimination games.

I like Romo as our QB but his level of play must change and improve in elimination games for the Cowboys to have a chance. His level of play in win or go home games is simply not the same level of play we see during most of the regular season. His yards, completion percentage and passer ratings are all down. The only thing that goes up is his turnovers. During the Cowboys 3 game winning streak last season Romo's TD to turnover ratio was 6-1. In the Cowboys 8 losses last season Romo's TD to turnover ratio was 15-16. The defense has to start stiffening up and forcing turnovers there's no question about that but Romo has to stop committing them. I mentioned he has multiple turnovers in 4 of his 6 elimination game losses. The FANS who are upset with Troy are upset because he doesn't cheerlead for the Cowboys during telecasts like they think he should being a former player. Any criticism he has for the team is frowned upon by Cowboy FANS who think he doesn't like the team anymore. LOL That's the ridiculous read FANS have when they hear critical comments about the team.

 

[5Stars]

Some of the stats that are being posted are clearly an attempt to put most if not all the blame on Romo's supporting cast. His supporting cast has received most of the blame in this thread. Like I said for the Cowboys to improve the defense has to improve and start forcing turnovers and Romo has to stop committing them in win or go home games. In Romo's 7 elimination games his TD to turnover ratio is 8-12 and the TD to turnover ratio of the opposing QB's is 14-2. Only one opposing QB suffered turnovers in those 7 elimination games and he only escaped with a win mostly due to the biggest mistake in Romo's career the ill-timed fumbled snap in Seattle. Yes the Cowboys defense only forced 2 turnovers but some of that has to be credited to the opposing QB's for being smart with the football. Some of Romo's turnovers could have been prevented had he been smart with the football and protected it. He had a lost fumble vs Philly in 08 that resulted in a scoop and score. He had 2 lost fumbles vs Minn that were on him for not protecting the football. Take the sack but don't fumble! Not all his turnovers were on him but most were. His decision making has always been under scrutiny. Turnovers have been a trend with Romo in do or die games and this trend has to stop because the Cowboys are unlikely to ever have a good enough team that overcome multiple turnovers in elimination games.

I like Romo as our QB but his level of play must change and improve in elimination games for the Cowboys to have a chance. His level of play in win or go home games is simply not the same level of play we see during most of the regular season. His yards, completion percentage and passer ratings are all down. The only thing that goes up is his turnovers. During the Cowboys 3 game winning streak last season Romo's TD to turnover ratio was 6-1. In the Cowboys 8 losses last season Romo's TD to turnover ratio was 15-16. The defense has to start stiffening up and forcing turnovers there's no question about that but Romo has to stop committing them. I mentioned he has multiple turnovers in 4 of his 6 elimination game losses. The FANS who are upset with Troy are upset because he doesn't cheerlead for the Cowboys during telecasts like they think he should being a former player. Any criticism he has for the team is frowned upon by Cowboy FANS who think he doesn't like the team anymore. LOL That's the ridiculous read FANS have when they hear critical comments about the team.

How many times are you going to repeat this?

 

[percyhoward]

You don't seem to like the fact that Romo is being judged off his elimination game record and HC's who don't even throw a pass or make a tackle are judged off theirs.

It's not that I don't like that way of thinking (not thinking?), it's that there's no use for it.

When my perception of something doesn't mesh with popular opinion, when I'm seeing black and others are calling it white, then I want to know if I'm right, so I find out. It just seems like the natural thing to do, as opposed to blindly going along with whatever the common perception may be. It would seem unnatural to me, if in an effort to figure something out, I were to back further away from it and relate it to something else like you're doing here with the HC example. I'd prefer to get as close to it as possible to try and understand it.

So I see the connection you're trying to make with head coaches, but that strikes me more as another example of an all-inclusive easy way to judge a coach/player a certain way than it does a justification for doing so. The only virtue of that method is that it's easy. Kind of like saying, "We've got this common shortcut to thinking when it comes to head coaches, so why shouldn't quarterbacks be judged the same way?" OK, makes sense as far as that goes, but it doesn't go very far. It doesn't help me understand what went into making the coaches' records, just as it doesn't shed any light on the 1-6 at all.

I'm glad you had the aha moment about pass defenses, though. That's all my last post was saying, besides that you might want to consider how a bad performance by your D magnifies your QB's mistakes, and how consistent poor performances by your D make mistakes by your QB more likely.

Peace, I've got work to do.

 

[KJJ]

How many times are you going to repeat this?

Why does it annoy you?

 

[KJJ]

Peace, I've got work to do.

Hopefully some of that work involves trying to come up with answers to my questions and not looking up more passer rating stats.

 

[KJJ]

How many times are you going to repeat this?

You can always change it up and twist it. LOL

 

[KJJ]

When my perception of something doesn't mesh with popular opinion, when I'm seeing black and others are calling it white, then I want to know if I'm right, so I find out.

The popular opinion consists of fans and NFL experts who don't have a Cowboy/Romo bias. If you were right the perception of Romo wouldn't be what it is. Everyone who worked, coached and played in the NFL wouldn't be as critical of Romo if you were right. Your opinion is coming from a Cowboy FANS point of view. In your view a QB's passer rating correlates into winning more than anything which is why you beat passer rating stats to death. Romo's career passer rating is in the top 5 all-time but he has a losing record the past 3 seasons and his elimination game record is 1-6. There's average QB's who have higher career passer ratings than some HOF QB's who've won championships. Passer rating stats are a good measuring stick as to who win and losses during the postseason and SB. Tabulate Romo's passer rating during his 6 elimination game losses and compare it to his seasonal and career passing rating.

Your assumption is that everyone on ESPN and others who played and coached the game are putting most if not all the blame for the Cowboys 1-6 elimination game record on Romo because they refer to it as his record. ALL QB's have a W/L record during the regular season and postseason. Would you have started this thread if Romo's elimination game record was 6-1 and he owned a SB ring? Would you have taken exception had you thought they were giving him most if not all the credit for a winning elimination game record? Do you honestly believe the experts who played and coached the game are putting most of the blame on him for that record?

Do they not realize having played and coached the game that it takes more than a QB to be successful? In the OP you said: Take away the passing game in 2011 and 2012, and the teams that the Cowboys put on the field (especially after key injuries on defense) were bad football teams. Most teams today would be bad if you took away their passing game. GB went 15-1 in 2011 mostly due to their passing game. Their running game ranked 27th and although their defense forced turnovers that unit ranked 32nd in total defense. Do you think the Ravens would have won the SB last season without their passing game during the postseason? Ray Rice only averaged 3.6 per carry in the playoffs. In the SB Rice averaged only 3.0 and the Ravens defense gave up 468 yards of offense.

 

[DanteEXT]

Do they not realize having played and coached the game that it takes more than a QB to be successful? In the OP you said: Take away the passing game in 2011 and 2012, and the teams that the Cowboys put on the field (especially after key injuries on defense) were bad football teams. Most teams today would be bad if you took away their passing game. GB went 15-1 in 2011 mostly due to their passing game. Their running game ranked 27th and although their defense forced turnovers that unit ranked 32nd in total defense. Do you think the Ravens would have won the SB last season without their passing game during the postseason? Ray Rice only averaged 3.6 per carry in the playoffs. In the SB Rice averaged only 3.0 and the Ravens defense gave up 468 yards of offense.

I believe the OP was referencing defensive passer rating, not total defense (IMO, total defense is a useless stat). And no, I do not know the GB 2011 defensive passer rating. I assume with 38 takeaways it was pretty good.