With each passing WR trade and free agent signing, the Amari Cooper trade becomes more absurd

[zekecowboy]

They could have easily kept Cooper. Rams won a Super Bowl handing out huge deals all over the place.

Giving him up for a 5th was ridiculous. Seeing what we gave up to take him on just years before.

Either keep him or eat his cap for a high pick. They picked the dumbest option available and you justify it. They set cap money aside for Gregory and he bolted. We didn't even use that money. So Cooper could easily still be here. Salary cap continues to climb every year. You can always keep the players you want.

They decided to keep a scrub WR in Gallup over a great one in Cooper. Kick Gallup to the curb and that's even more money to save for Cooper.

Gallup will take a year before he totally recovers from the ACL. Once again a gamble on Jone's part.

 

[zekecowboy]

JACOBYBRISSETT

• Cleveland Browns
• #7
• Quarterback

• HT/WT
  6' 4", 235 lbs
• BIRTHDATE
  12/11/1992 (29)
• COLLEGE
  NC State
• DRAFT INFO
  2016: Rd 3, Pk 91 (NE)
• STATUS
  Active

It will be interesting to see how Cooper performs on week 13, DeShaun Watson.

 

[zekecowboy]

If I can't cut it in my current job, stand-up comedian is next on the list. (Not that far from retirement, though, so feeling good about avoiding that.)

But more seriously, no, for the same reason you'll pay more for a generic NBA borderline All-Star if you get his age 26, 27 and 28 seasons instead of his age 29, 30 and 31 seasons... and for the same reason you'll pay more for that same player if you obtain control of 5 years, and pay less for just 3 years of control... and... for the same reason prices just ahead of the start of free agency to create cap space are different than prices during draft week... and... given the similarity of Amari's Raiders production and AJ's Titans production, one could make the argument that the Eagles adding a 3rd was an overpay...

Then... respectfully disagree... it's a completely rational conclusion to believe the compensation DAL got from CLE was the more level-headed package in return. Mind you, I'm not asserting it was satisfying. It wasn't. But given all of the factors in play (and not just selected ones) and trying to pull off my DC cap for a moment and look at it as objectively as one can, it made sense... though, sure, a 4th would have felt so much better.

Jerry is not a very good poker player. He can't keep his mouth shut.

 

[Stash]

I'm not too worried about the defense. First off, a bunch of random stuff went on to really help Chicago. The INT called back by the roughing the passer, the fumble that should have been, a 3rd down stop that was turned into a first down on a neutral zone infraction. Overall, you reverse these 3 plays and the defense looks much better.

Excellent points there.

Outside of that Chicago beat Dallas on one play repeatedly, with two specific players involved. The option stuff at DLawrence left him grasping at air many times as Fields ran right around him. He has to clean that up but few QB's can do that. It didn't seem like a team wide issue or even a scheme problem. Chicago extended multiple drives like that.

Another great point.


I just hope it was a learning experience for Lawrence and it doesn’t continue to happen. He’s not as fast as he thinks he is.

 

[Jarntt]

It was a move they had to make then and it’s still the same today. Yes it weakened our roster but not by as much as paying Cooper $20 M per year for a couple more years would have. The 5th is meaningless to people who understand the cap. Cooper was going to be cut. I’ll repeat, Cooper was going to be cut. It was 100% a cap move and he was gone whether we got back a 5th, 7th or 1st. The stupid thing we did was run out there and tell everyone what we were going to do which probably lowered his trade value a little, but regardless he wasn’t going to be here with that cap hit and restructuring him would have just screwed us for years. They did what they had to do on this one and evaluating it without taking the cap into play is short sighted.

 

[darthseinfeld]

Cooper was in the conversation. You’re right that those are arguably the two best. But Cooper was top 10 and the return for him wasn’t in the same universe.

That’s the point.

I think the issues with the Cooper trade could run far deeper than just draft compensation. His contract never should have been an issue. In fact it should have been attractive, because with no guaranteed money he should have been motivated to re do it. Which he did after he was traded. Was he not willing to do that with Dallas? I wish we knew the whole story, because this situation could expose deeper organizational failures.

Then there was the hit peice by Fisher. It seemed like the Cowboys were more interested in getting fans to want Cooper out than actually getting a fair return from him

 

[_sturt_]

Jerry is not a very good poker player. He can't keep his mouth shut.

I can't speak to whether Jerry plays poker well... never had that experience.

What I can say is, specific to this conversation regarding the Amari deal, there's been a lot of bluster and chest thumping ad hominem in the realm of "You have to be sticking your head in the sand"... but it's just that until you can provide the quote... so far, all anyone as far as I've read has been able to find is this, said by Stephen (not Jerry) a couple of weeks ahead of the trade...

“It’s too early for me to address that yet. I mean, we’re continuing to have conversations.”

One can interpret that as one prefers, but it objectively says what it says, not what you in hindsight have decided it said. I'll elaborate. Had the Amari trade never happened, we all would look back and shrug our shoulders. It's a throwaway line. It only has meaning once you know what actually came of those conversations.

Maybe you can find a better quote to convict the Joneses on this one. I'm left to think that's about the best anyone can come up with, though... purty confident someone who invests as much ego in these things as Stash would have provided something better if it existed.

Me, I call balls and strikes. I don't assume every episode of every Cowboys drama is the same call. I don't live with any need to deem myself smarter than the owner/GM. They do what they do for a living, and I can't pretend to assess their performance as-if having insider intel as to what trades they had available and what trades they turned down. Likewise, they have no insider insight to what I do for a living, and can't pretend to assess my performance at a granular level.

 

[infamousstyles]

Defending the FO when we turned a #1 offense into an average to below average offense is laughable no matter how your slice it. Even if you agree with moving him the return compensation just didn't add up.

 

[Stash]

I think the issues with the Cooper trade could run far deeper than just draft compensation. His contract never should have been an issue. In fact it should have been attractive, because with no guaranteed money he should have been motivated to re do it. Which he did after he was traded. Was he not willing to do that with Dallas? I wish we knew the whole story, because this situation could expose deeper organizational failures.

Then there was the hit peice by Fisher. It seemed like the Cowboys were more interested in getting fans to want Cooper out than actually getting a fair return from him

It was clear to me that his vax status was a deal breaker for the Joneses. And after that they felt ‘betrayed’ and we’re going to do whatever they had to to send him away. The rest of the league knew it because they’re incapable of keeping their mouths shut. And knowing Dallas would ultimately cut him, the price tanked.

This is a Jones debacle, plain and simple. And anyone that can’t see that doesn’t WANT TO.

 

[OmerV]

Why would any team offer a high draft pick when the Jones stated if we can't trade him we are going to cut him? Maybe their team management needs to go to Negotiating 101 classes.

I'm not sure that wasn't just an expectation reported by the media rather than Jerry declaring it to be so, but even though a team may have expected Jerry to release Cooper without a trade, that wouldn't ensure that they would end up with Cooper. Another team could still beat them to the punch and make a deal with Dallas before he got cut, and even if he became a free agent there would be 30 other teams they might have to compete with to make a deal with Cooper. In short, the only sure way to get Cooper would have been to make a deal with the Cowboys.

 

[darthseinfeld]

It was clear to me that his vax status was a deal breaker for the Joneses. And after that they felt ‘betrayed’ and we’re going to do whatever they had to to send him away. The rest of the league knew it because they’re incapable of keeping their mouths shut. And knowing Dallas would ultimately cut him, the price tanked.

This is a Jones debacle, plain and simple. And anyone that can’t see that doesn’t WANT TO.

Yup. You knew whem they kept yammering about being disappointed in him. Its one thing if that the case, but its a whole nother thing to put it in the media. It also sends a very bad message to other players in and out of house. This organization will throw under the bus to the fans if they feel its in their best interest. At some point if we keep repeating this we will have to pay a Jacksonville Tax (paying above market value because you are not an attractive destination) to even keep in house players

 

[Hawkeye0202]

Let’s not make this more than what it is. Jerry got rid of Amari because he felt betrayed when Coop wouldn’t get the shot.

This is it in a nutshell........In fact, I'm willing to bet a red penny, they were going to release him anyway if Browns hadn't offered a pick. Jerry has actually addressed this, remember he used the word "availability" regarding Coop. Bottom line, remember when Stephen Jones wanted Dez gone? So much he didn't even bother asking for a pay cut. Well, this is the same way Jerry felt about Coop. Getting a draft meant little or nothing coz two things ........he wasn't paying Coop $20M ( which was due 5 days after the new league year and Coop was not going to be on the 2022 Cowboy roster regardless.

 

[_sturt_]

Even if you agree with moving him the return compensation just didn't add up.

All due respect. False.

It's not enough just to repeat these declarative mantras as-if brought down by Moses from Mount Sinai, and having no context.

Return compensation the morning the story first broke? Nothing. Nothing. Schefter reported they were "likely" to release Amari. That suggests that some teams' front offices were telling Schefter Dallas had no options but to cut him.

Some way some how, though, at least one option eventually did emerge, of course.

It's all a matter of perspective. We have no clear objective way of measuring.

The best thing we have are comparables, which is so much more confounded in the NFL simply because so few trades occur to begin with. Fortunately, the AJ Brown trade does provide about as good of a comparable as you'd ever be able to find... and yet, as I've posted multiple times by now (and I'm just not going to repeat myself endlessly like others do, I'm sorry... it's here in this thread if you wanna look... ) there are several factors that some people are over-eager to ignore or brush off that give some rational ground to the compensation the front office agreed to.



Here's what I'd say, bottom line...

5th round pick plus a 6th round pick flip... better obviously than the outright release that Schefter reported, but yeah, my opinion is that holding out for a 4th would have been what I would have done for as long as I could have done that, cognizant of my other free agency goals.

But in light of the comparable b/t Amari's Raiders production and AJ's Titans production, I think the Eagles seriously overpaid in light of the Titans' situation. We paid a 1st not very long ago for that level of production with that kind of projection... and without having to make a firm salary commitment immediately as the Eagles did... and without the Raiders up against the wall as the Titans were.

Just a 1st.

It's been popular to praise Howie Roseman over here, at least among Dallas Cowboys media, but with the Titans in that position and with the leverage of being able to say "if we make the trade, we're having to pay him a big number right off the bat," even a 1st was, by comparison, generous to the Titans.

They paid a 1st and a 3rd(!).

More soberly, if our Raiders trade for Amari is used as a comparable, a more rational trade would have been something like a 2nd plus something else.

For now, no one will argue the point because they're winning and Brown is producing. They could have just as easily given up two 1sts and no one would be complaining. It's only when a team hits a downturn and/or a highly-paid player hits a downturn that those things get the stronger scrutiny.

 

[_sturt_]

But in light of the comparable b/t Amari's Raiders production and AJ's Titans production, I think the Eagles seriously overpaid in light of the Titans' situation. We paid a 1st not very long ago for that level of production with that kind of projection... and without having to make a firm salary commitment immediately as the Eagles did... and without the Raiders up against the wall as the Titans were.

Just a 1st.

It's been popular to praise Howie Roseman over here, at least among Dallas Cowboys media, but with the Titans in that position and with the leverage of being able to say "if we make the trade, we're having to pay him a big number right off the bat," even a 1st was, by comparison, generous to the Titans.

They paid a 1st and a 3rd(!).

More soberly, if our Raiders trade for Amari is used as a comparable, a more rational trade would have been something like a 2nd plus something else.

Yes, I just quoted myself, but there's a reason for that.

Someone by now could have legitimately responded.... "Well they probably ended up paying more because there were other bidders at the table."

To which, I've been patiently (?) waiting to say... Exactly.

This is the fundamental missing consideration in virtually every outsider's trade analysis. Ever.

Comparables only represent a starting point for these conversations, just like a comparable is the starting point for an auction item one might put on Ebay. The law of supply and demand ultimately will hold the strongest hand in setting the final cost.

To the point here, the Eagles very possibly made a rational trade in light of the competition (demand) for Brown's services. It was an overpay with reference to the comparable, but with reference to the market as it stood in that last week of April, it was likely in the vicinity of the equilibrium price.

To the previous point... the Cowboys options very possibly if not very likely (again, given Schefter's original report) extremely limited at that moment as the free agency opening bell is set to ring. It seems reasonable to believe there was maybe one team that CLE considered a credible competitor for Amari, otherwise they would have just waited to see him released outright.

And here's the "inconvenient truth" served up by the AJ Brown comparable....

If anyone was widely considered/rumored to be in a pickle by virtue of other teams having reason to believe they were in desperation mode, it was the Tennessee Titans. And yet... how did they come out of that with such a haul?

Stop me if you've heard this before.

It illuminates the fundamental missing consideration in virtually every outsider's trade analysis, ever... ultimately, the law of supply and demand holds the strongest hand in setting the cost. That, and time. The equilibrium price as free agency is ready to start is likely to vary several weeks into free agency when most of that off-season phase is over.

Call balls and strikes. Pile on Jerry/Stephen/Will when they deserve it. Even voice your suspicions, as long as you speak of them as that, aka, assumptions. But... my humble (?) advice... be discerning. Resist speaking in conclusive ways when doing so only makes you seem like an ump predisposed to only call balls. Desire for others to see you as someone who isn't just satisfied with the shallow surface conclusion, but someone who takes seriously critical thought and arguing with oneself ahead of posting.

"Damn. That sounds condescending."

Maybe. To some. Probably not to those who already do that. And regardless, I don't make the rules/guardrails. I just know what they are, try to work within their confines, and don't object to their existence.

 

[Sydla]

All due respect. False.

It's not enough just to repeat these declarative mantras as-if brought down by Moses from Mount Sinai, and having no context.

Return compensation the morning the story first broke? Nothing. Nothing. Schefter reported they were "likely" to release Amari. That suggests that some teams' front offices were telling Schefter Dallas had no options but to cut him.

Some way some how, though, at least one option eventually did emerge, of course.

It's all a matter of perspective. We have no clear objective way of measuring.

The best thing we have are comparables, which is so much more confounded in the NFL simply because so few trades occur to begin with. Fortunately, the AJ Brown trade does provide about as good of a comparable as you'd ever be able to find... and yet, as I've posted multiple times by now (and I'm just not going to repeat myself endlessly like others do, I'm sorry... it's here in this thread if you wanna look... ) there are several factors that some people are over-eager to ignore or brush off that give some rational ground to the compensation the front office agreed to.



Here's what I'd say, bottom line...

5th round pick plus a 6th round pick flip... better obviously than the outright release that Schefter reported, but yeah, my opinion is that holding out for a 4th would have been what I would have done for as long as I could have done that, cognizant of my other free agency goals.

But in light of the comparable b/t Amari's Raiders production and AJ's Titans production, I think the Eagles seriously overpaid in light of the Titans' situation. We paid a 1st not very long ago for that level of production with that kind of projection... and without having to make a firm salary commitment immediately as the Eagles did... and without the Raiders up against the wall as the Titans were.

Just a 1st.

It's been popular to praise Howie Roseman over here, at least among Dallas Cowboys media, but with the Titans in that position and with the leverage of being able to say "if we make the trade, we're having to pay him a big number right off the bat," even a 1st was, by comparison, generous to the Titans.

They paid a 1st and a 3rd(!).

More soberly, if our Raiders trade for Amari is used as a comparable, a more rational trade would have been something like a 2nd plus something else.

For now, no one will argue the point because they're winning and Brown is producing. They could have just as easily given up two 1sts and no one would be complaining. It's only when a team hits a downturn and/or a highly-paid player hits a downturn that those things get the stronger scrutiny.

Because teams knew Jerry wanted to cut him. It was well reported that Dallas was looking to clear cap space. It was also documented/reported that Jerry was bugged by the fact Cooper missed games for not being vaccinated. So it was clear as day that Dallas was dumping Cooper. It was the worst kept secret. And Jerry has a reputation of being bad at trades so teams just waited it out until Jerry became desperate for anything.

The return was trash. Trying to defend Jerry here is hilarious.

 

[blueblood70]

Yes, I just quoted myself, but there's a reason for that.

Someone by now could have legitimately responded.... "Well they probably ended up paying more because there were other bidders at the table."

To which, I've been patiently (?) waiting to say... Exactly.

This is the fundamental missing consideration in virtually every outsider's trade analysis. Ever.

Comparables only represent a starting point for these conversations, just like a comparable is the starting point for an auction item one might put on Ebay. The law of supply and demand ultimately will hold the strongest hand in setting the final cost.

To the point here, the Eagles very possibly made a rational trade in light of the competition (demand) for Brown's services. It was an overpay with reference to the comparable, but with reference to the market as it stood in that last week of April, it was likely in the vicinity of the equilibrium price.

To the previous point... the Cowboys options very possibly if not very likely (again, given Schefter's original report) extremely limited at that moment as the free agency opening bell is set to ring. It seems reasonable to believe there was maybe one team that CLE considered a credible competitor for Amari, otherwise they would have just waited to see him released outright.

And here's the "inconvenient truth" served up by the AJ Brown comparable....

If anyone was widely considered/rumored to be in a pickle by virtue of other teams having reason to believe they were in desperation mode, it was the Tennessee Titans. And yet... how did they come out of that with such a haul?

Stop me if you've heard this before.

It illuminates the fundamental missing consideration in virtually every outsider's trade analysis, ever... ultimately, the law of supply and demand holds the strongest hand in setting the cost. That, and time. The equilibrium price as free agency is ready to start is likely to vary several weeks into free agency when most of that off-season phase is over.

Call balls and strikes. Pile on Jerry/Stephen/Will when they deserve it. Even voice your suspicions, as long as you speak of them as that, aka, assumptions. But... my humble (?) advice... be discerning. Resist speaking in conclusive ways when doing so only makes you seem like an ump predisposed to only call balls. Desire for others to see you as someone who isn't just satisfied with the shallow surface conclusion, but someone who takes seriously critical thought and arguing with oneself ahead of posting.

"Damn. That sounds condescending."

Maybe. To some. Probably not to those who already do that. And regardless, I don't make the rules/guardrails. I just know what they are, try to work within their confines, and don't object to their existence.

you are wasting keystrokes as these Internet GMs think they know better. as i they had inside information and they feel Jerry would purposefully take a worse deal and didn't look for a better one.

 

[_sturt_]

Because teams knew Jerry wanted to cut him.

 

[Mr_437]

Poor planning. To let go of a WR1 for next to nothing and take the stance that WR coming off an ACL is going to stabilize the group is dumb.

Going hard after a WR during the deadline and almost dealing for one that cost $18M when Coop was $20M is showing they made a mistake.

Just run the freaking ball and trust the process. Let Gallup continue to improve, get JW in the fold, get Noah healthy, and use Turp better. Can't have it all.

 

[_sturt_]

they feel Jerry would purposefully take a worse deal

Yep. Such a shame that the leadership of every other sports franchise but ours acts in their own self-interests. For whatever reason, the Joneses prefer to just do whatever they want for any reason except self-interest. Adam Smith turns over in his grave.