Would Jerry take a chance with Vick?

[HopeCowboyFan]

I really think that if Vick was throwing some money gambling on dog fights it really had no tangible impact on NFL gambling. If nothing else he was the guy there with millions and not at risk to be forced to compromise and throw games because he lost 1,000 on a bet. It's heinous wagering but not worthy of a lifetime ban from football - JMO

Heck Barkley and Jordan bet Hundreds of thousands on the links when playing basketball.

I sense Vick worked a deal with NFL - Plea and a suspension to mirror his jail term. 12-18 months

 

[03EBZ06]

The poster I quoted didn't say anything about illegal gambling. Just said gambling. He used the instance of gambling to say that the NFL wouldn't touch him. I argued that. And I don't think the illegal gambling part of it changes it as far as the sport is concerned. If you don't gamble on your own sport, all you have is a crime, and criminals still play in sports.

When Big Dakota was talking about Vick's gambling, it was obvious reference to illegal gambling since dogfighting is illegal.

Are you telling me that illegal gambling, even if not on your own sport/games, would be worse than drug dealing, vehicular manslaughter, rape, etc...?? all things pro athletes have been convicted of who continued to participate in their sports afterwards.

I'm not telling you anything other than there is a distinction between illegal gambling and legal gambling.

 

[peplaw06]

Why should Feds accept any stipulations by Vick's lawyer? It isn't like Vick have any leverage.

Feds clearly outlined that Vick illegally betted on dogfighting and they should not accept any stipulation.

I guess we'll find out next Monday.

Following this line of thought, you would think Vick had to accept a plea for the max sentence. I mean if he doesn't have any leverage, how does it get to a 12-18 month sentence?

There's plenty of leverage... you just don't know about it, because the indictment is all you know about. The questionable facts aren't put in the indictment.

 

[HopeCowboyFan]

If you are not at a casino or buying a lotto ticket. If you are gambling its illegal?

 

[peplaw06]

When Big Dakota was talking about Vick's gambling, it was obvious reference to illegal gambling since dogfighting is illegal.


I'm not telling you anything other than there is a distinction between illegal gambling and legal gambling.

Fine... there's a distinction. It makes zero difference.... but a distinction. Great.

 

[03EBZ06]

Im saying Vick wouldnt probably accept a deal unless it didnt included that and you have no idea who had what leverage in all of this.

"Mr Vick has agreed to enter a plea of guilty to those charges and to accept full responsibility for his actions and the mistakes he has made," said Vick's defence lawyer Billy Martin in a statement.

regardless what you say, they don't have any leaverage, the Feds got him by the balls.

 

[03EBZ06]

Following this line of thought, you would think Vick had to accept a plea for the max sentence. I mean if he doesn't have any leverage, how does it get to a 12-18 month sentence?

There's plenty of leverage... you just don't know about it, because the indictment is all you know about. The questionable facts aren't put in the indictment.

I guess you know what leverage Vick have so enlighten us, tell us what leverage he has since you obviously know lot more than what's in the indictment.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

regardless what you say, they don't have any leaverage, the Feds got him by the balls.

You realize that once you agree to a deal that is after the negotiations are done right? They dont have him by the balls they actually have a plea agreement that binds BOTH parties.

 

[03EBZ06]

Fine... there's a distinction. It makes zero difference.... but a distinction. Great.

I expect nothing less from a lawyer, who cares whether it's illegal or legal as long as you squeeze money out of client, great.

 

[peplaw06]

I guess you know what leverage Vick have so enlighten us, tell us what leverage he has since you obviously know lot more than what's in the indictment.

Okay, how's this? There's leverage in allowing the Feds to avoid a long drawn out trial where they're constantly followed by the media who is critiquing their every move. That's plenty of leverage in my book.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I expect nothing less from a lawyer, who cares whether it's illegal or legal as long as you squeeze money out of client, great.

No he is saying that the CBA doesnt stipulate a difference between gambling and gambling on illegal activities. Most gambling is illegal anyway so you really are being silly about this whole thing.

Hes going to jail just relax.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Okay, how's this? There's leverage in allowing the Feds to avoid a long drawn out trial where they're constantly followed by the media who is critiquing their every move. That's plenty of leverage in my book.

Dont forget the cash it would cost and the fact they arent exactly guaranteed to win.

 

[peplaw06]

I expect nothing less from a lawyer, who cares whether it's illegal or legal as long as you squeeze money out of client, great.

Congratulations... you have completely missed the entire point and drifted off into personal insults. "I expect nothing less" from someone who can't argue a point rationally.

 

[03EBZ06]

You realize that once you agree to a deal that is after the negotiations are done right? They dont have him by the balls they actually have a plea agreement that binds BOTH parties.

Vick agreed to plea guilty on those charges in the indictment already and as far as i'm concern Feds have upper hand. I don't have any problem with negotiating for prison time.

Like I said earlier, we'll find out on Monday. You nor I, even pepew don't have any idea, all we are doing is speculating.

 

[Seven]

Good Lord! I wonder what nathanalt would do?! I'd hate to see it or be a bystander IN it.................

 

[silverbear]

Dogfighting charges does not mean he gambled.

The indictment lists numerous examples of illegal gambling... if Vick pleads guilty, it will be a tacit admission that he did indeed participate in illegal gambling, and as such, would provide Goodell with all the justification he needs for imposing a very severe suspension, perhaps even a lifetime ban...

If his lawyes arent morons that would be a stipulation on the plea.

His lawyers have no leverage to demand "stipulations"... this plea bargain would more properly be called an unconditional surrender on the part of the defendant... his lawyers played the game as long as they could, trying to wring out some vestige of an advantage for their client, and the Feds just started them down, until Vick's lawyers knew there was no more game to be played...

Its the same verbage that is used for regular criminal activity and doesnt anywhere say gamble = ban.

Ask Paul Hornung and Alex Karras if gamble = ban or not...

I find it amusing, that you don't even seem to be aware of the historical PRECEDENT for the NFL suspending players involved with gambling...

One thing i have definitely learned over this offseason is that the media as a whole has no idea what the commisioners powers are

Said the man who seems to be unaware of the historical precedents regarding the NFL banning players involved with gamblers...

 

[silverbear]

Are you telling me that illegal gambling, even if not on your own sport/games, would be worse than drug dealing, vehicular manslaughter, rape, etc...?? all things pro athletes have been convicted of who continued to participate in their sports afterwards.

Yes, Pep, I'm telling you that the assorted sports leagues consider gambling to be the greatest sin, and the one most likely to get you kicked out of the sport in question...

The reason for that is a player who gets involved in gambling, even one who never, ever bets on his own sport, often LOSES, and loses big... this puts him in debt, and makes him an easy mark for the gambler to whom he owes money to say "shave points in this game, and you're square with me"...

Hornung and Karras weren't accused of betting on football, IIRC, they were merely accused of associating with known gamblers... and they got suspended for it...

 

[silverbear]

i dont see anyway on Earth that Vick would accept a deal if it didnt not include gambling.

if it did then at that point he might as well take it to court because then he has a chance at salvaging something. If it says that he led a gambling ring in addition to just dogfighting then I would just see him taking it to court because the possible outcome there would be better.

You do realize that pleading guilty to dogfighting is a de facto confession to illegal gambling, don't you??

EVERY dog fight involves illegal gambling... if you're engaging in the former, you're most assuredly engaging in the latter...

 

[silverbear]

Im saying Vick wouldnt probably accept a deal unless it didnt included that and you have no idea who had what leverage in all of this.

Don't be ridiculous, Fuzz, we know EXACTLY what leverage both sides have... the Feds had three codefendants and four confidential witnesses lined up to testify against Vick, he has-- well, nothing...

He's nailed to the barn door, which is the ONLY reason he's agreed to cop a plea... and I can assure you, even as I sit far outside of the negotiations, that this process has dragged on this long because Vick's defense team HOPED to wrangle some concessions from the Feds, but ultimately failed to do so...

I said it in another post to this thread, when you read "plea negotiation", it would be more accurate to substitute "unconditional surrender"... the only concession Vick is getting is a somewhat lighter sentence in return for not taking this to court...

 

[silverbear]

I really think that if Vick was throwing some money gambling on dog fights it really had no tangible impact on NFL gambling.

You're almost certainly right about that, but the point is irrelevant, because it's the POSSIBILITY of an impact on NFL gambling that the league is hypersensitive to... they won't allow even the APPEARANCE of impropriety on this issue...

I sense Vick worked a deal with NFL - Plea and a suspension to mirror his jail term. 12-18 months

And why, pray tell, do you think the NFL would agree to such a light slap on the wrist, when Goodell is trying to establish a rep as the new sheriff in town??

Bluntly, I think that's little more than wishful thinking on your part... I believe the league office has a mindset that they're gonna make an example of Michael Vick, one that will catch the attention of the rest of the players around the league... this is their high-profile, "statement" case...