Yankees preparing ma$$ive offer for Cliff Lee

[Rogah]

The yankees buy players... so what its free agency, there are zero rules inhibiting them from doing so. Like I said 100x before hate the teams that do not fork money over. They all have the ability to do so. You can argue the fact that they cant, but the yankees have made an inestment to win and it has made them rich. Risk and reward paid off so start making some risks

MLB teams most certainly do not "all have the ability" to spend money equally. The greatest braintrust of managers in baseball could never generate as much revenue in Milwaukee or Kansas City as is generated for the Yankees.

It is a simple and obvious consequence of how baseball is structured. And that is why it is no longer even remotely considered our national pastime.

 

[Temo]

You're right, he isn't the 9-10 best in baseball, but I would say Lincecum, Halladay, Felix Hernandez, CC are better than he is. So that would make him 5th best in baseball at the very best.

Of those five, Hernandez is probably the best pitcher in baseball yet you didn't even list him. Is it because he plays for the Mariners and his name isn't spoken every day on ESPN that you don't know about him? He is on a team with a crappy offense so like Zack Greinke, he has trouble winning games.

It appears all your information about baseball comes from ESPN. /fail I wouldn't argue baseball if ESPN is where your baseball IQ comes from.

I would go even higher: CC better than Lee? Probably not. Debatable that Lincecum is better (for one season only, he's way younger).

 

[tko112204]

I would go even higher: CC better than Lee? Probably not. Debatable that Lincecum is better (for one season only, he's way younger).

Lee has had one year in his career better than Lincecum's 2010.

2010 was also the 3rd best year of Tim's career.

 

[Temo]

Lee has had one year in his career better than Lincecum's 2010.

2010 was also the 3rd best year of Tim's career.

Where do you get just one year better than Lincecum's 2010?

Lincecum's last 3 years:
227 IP - 2.62 ERA
225.3 IP - 2.48 ERA
212.1 IP - 3.43 ERA

Lee's last 3 years:
223 IP - 2.54 ERA
231.2 IP - 3.22 ERA
212.1 IP - 3.18 ERA

Seems all of Lee's last 3 years were better than Lincecum's 2010.

Also, Lee has pitched in the AL and pitched in CBP when he was in the NL... so you adjust for League (AL is better than NL), park (SF's home park is a great pitcher's park), and DH usage (causes about a .30 ERA bump having to deal with a DH).

I think it's debateable which is the better pitcher.

 

[tko112204]

Where do you get just one year better than Lincecum's 2010?

Lincecum's last 3 years:
227 IP - 2.62 ERA
225.3 IP - 2.48 ERA
212.1 IP - 3.43 ERA

Lee's last 3 years:
223 IP - 2.54 ERA
231.2 IP - 3.22 ERA
212.1 IP - 3.18 ERA

Seems all of Lee's last 3 years were better than Lincecum's 2010.

Also, Lee has pitched in the AL and pitched in CBP when he was in the NL... so you adjust for League (AL is better than NL), park (SF's home park is a great pitcher's park), and DH usage (causes about a .30 ERA bump having to deal with a DH).

I think it's debateable which is the better pitcher.

There's more to the debate than ERA.

Lee's 2008 was undeniably brilliant. That and Lincecum's 2009 and Greinke's 2009 were the finest pitching seasons in the last 4 or 5 years. His 2010 was very good as well, outrates Lincecum's 2010 by a little bit.

One thing that should be noted about Lincecum's 2010:

August: 0-5, 7.82 ERA
All Other Months: 16-5, 2.83 ERA

He still wasn't quite as good as he had been in '08 and '09 but better than Lee. And more in line with the rest of his career. I will admit I was surprised when I gathered the numbers how favorably Lee compared to Lincecum the last 3 years.

Lee:

2008: xFIP:3.17 fWAR:7.2 K/9:6.1 K/BB:5.0 ERA+:168
2009: xFIP:3.69 fWAR:6.6 K/9:7.0 K/BB:4.2 ERA+:131
2010: xFIP:3.23 fWAR:7.1 K/9:7.8 K/BB:10.28 ERA+:130

Lincecum

2008: xFIP:3.17 fWAR:7.5 K/9:10.5 K/BB:3.1 ERA+:169
2009: xFIP:2.87 fWAR:8.2 K/9:10.4 K/BB:3.8 ERA+173
2010: xFIP:3.21 fWAR:6.1 K/9:9.8 K/BB:3.0 ERA+119

(xFIP= expected fielding independent pitching. Normalizes for park factor, hr/fb rate, league factor. fWAR= Fangraphs calculation of WAR or Wins Above Replacement, which is the accepted figure for pitchers. The baseball-reference calculation is generally used for hitters)

SO....

Lee's control is much better than Lincecum's, but Tim makes up for that with a much higher K rate. Lee doesn't rate nearly as well in xFIP which is attributed to his time in pitcher friendly Safeco this year, Jacobs field in '08, and the slightly weaker league in '09. Surprising. Overall, Tim's numbers come out slightly better than Cliff's but it's much closer than I would have imagined.

Obviously going forward you would want Tim, but for one year it's a debate.

 

[Alweezy]

The question is... can Cliff Lee alone solve the Yankees problems? And I honestly think the Yankees are so disconnected with what their true problem is (a rapidly aging roster) that signing Lee will not be enough... in that very link that was posted, they spent the second half of the video talking about resigning Jeter.


Resigning Jeter?! ARe you serious? That's embarrassing....


Signing Lee will sooth the anger for a little bit though. but we'll see Bluebandit back here posting messages with Texas people about how you avoided being bounced out a round earlier, but still can't seem to pull it all together for some strange reason. Answer: the problem with the Yankees wasn't starting pitching when it was all said and done in the first place.

 

[BlueBandit]

The question is... can Cliff Lee alone solve the Yankees problems? And I honestly think the Yankees are so disconnected with what their true problem is (a rapidly aging roster) that signing Lee will not be enough... in that very link that was posted, they spent the second half of the video talking about resigning Jeter.


Resigning Jeter?! ARe you serious? That's embarrassing....


Signing Lee will sooth the anger for a little bit though. but we'll see Bluebandit back here posting messages with Texas people about how you avoided being bounced out a round earlier, but still can't seem to pull it all together for some strange reason. Answer: the problem with the Yankees wasn't starting pitching when it was all said and done in the first place.

The Problem against the Rangers WAS pitching , they didn't get one quality start.

They will be moving youth into the lineup - ***** Montero will be the new catcher, Posada the DH.

Eduardo Nunez is going to see a LOT of time at SS

Ramrio Pena will be the new goto Utility guy and Greg Gholsten will see more time in RF and CF.

If the Yankee snag Lee and a smart FA pick up like Ty Wigginton - you'll see them back in the WS for the 2nd time in 3 years and you'll see them win it for the 2nd time in 3 years.

 

[tko112204]

The Problem against the Rangers WAS pitching , they didn't get one quality start.

They will be moving youth into the lineup - ***** Montero will be the new catcher, Posada the DH.

Eduardo Nunez is going to see a LOT of time at SS

Ramrio Pena will be the new goto Utility guy and Greg Gholsten will see more time in RF and CF.

If the Yankee snag Lee and a smart FA pick up like Ty Wigginton - you'll see them back in the WS for the 2nd time in 3 years and you'll see them win it for the 2nd time in 3 years.

You say that like it's a good thing...

 

[BlueBandit]

AL executive in regard to the Lee situation...

"No doubt he is a Yankee," an AL executive said of Cliff Lee. "It would be too devastating to the franchise not to get him, especially when it is just going to cost money. "Lee is all about the money," the executive added. "His agent is all about the money. And the Yanks have the most money. The ramifications for not signing him are so severe for the Yankees. They can't replicate what he brings in any other way. They are not going to waste the ton of money they already have invested for 2011 by not bringing in the finishing piece that makes all that money worth it."



New York Post



Read more: www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/view/...

 

[Temo]

There's more to the debate than ERA.

Lee's 2008 was undeniably brilliant. That and Lincecum's 2009 and Greinke's 2009 were the finest pitching seasons in the last 4 or 5 years. His 2010 was very good as well, outrates Lincecum's 2010 by a little bit.

One thing that should be noted about Lincecum's 2010:

August: 0-5, 7.82 ERA
All Other Months: 16-5, 2.83 ERA

He still wasn't quite as good as he had been in '08 and '09 but better than Lee. And more in line with the rest of his career. I will admit I was surprised when I gathered the numbers how favorably Lee compared to Lincecum the last 3 years.

Lee:

2008: xFIP:3.57 fWAR:7.2 K/9:6.1 K/BB:5.0 ERA+:168
2009: xFIP:3.69 fWAR:6.6 K/9:7.0 K/BB:4.2 ERA+:131
2010: xFIP:3.23 fWAR:7.1 K/9:7.8 K/BB:10.28 ERA+:130

Lincecum

2008: xFIP:3.17 fWAR:7.5 K/9:10.5 K/BB:3.1 ERA+:169
2009: xFIP:2.87 fWAR:8.2 K/9:10.4 K/BB:3.8 ERA+173
2010: xFIP:3.21 fWAR:5.1 K/9:9.8 K/BB:3.0 ERA+119

(xFIP= expected fielding independent pitching. Normalizes for park factor, hr/fb rate, league factor. fWAR= Fangraphs calculation of WAR or Wins Above Replacement, which is the accepted figure for pitchers. The baseball-reference calculation is generally used for hitters)

SO....

Lee's control is much better than Lincecum's, but Tim makes up for that with a much higher K rate. Lee doesn't rate nearly as well in xFIP which is attributed to his time in pitcher friendly Safeco this year, Jacobs field in '08, and the slightly weaker league in '09. Surprising. Overall, Tim's numbers come out slightly better than Cliff's but it's much closer than I would have imagined.

Obviously going forward you would want Tim, but for one year it's a debate.

I'm well aware of all those figures, and really they just prove my point that they're very comparable pitchers.

Lee has 20.9 WAR, Lincecum has 20.8 (he had 5.1 WAR in 2010 by the way, not 6.1).

Also, xFIP does not normalize for league factor or park factor, it only normalizes HR/FB rate (and in a round-about-way, some park factor vis-a-vis HR/FB rate).

 

[BlueBandit]

You say that like it's a good thing...

Solid prospect Baseball America thinks highly of him.

 

[tko112204]

I'm well aware of all those figures, and really they just prove my point that they're very comparable pitchers.

Lee has 20.9 WAR, Lincecum has 20.8 (he had 5.1 WAR in 2010 by the way, not 6.1).

Also, xFIP does not normalize for league factor or park factor, it only normalizes HR/FB rate (and in a round-about-way, some park factor vis-a-vis HR/FB rate).

You're right. I misspoke on league factor. But it does adjust for park factor as you said.

I said they were very comparable at the end of my post. I'm not arguing with you.

 

[tko112204]

Solid prospect Baseball America thinks highly of him.

They may have at the beginning of 2010. He won't be anywhere near the Top 100 in 2011. His bat has gone nowhere in the minors.

 

[BlueBandit]

They may have at the beginning of 2010. He won't be anywhere near the Top 100 in 2011. His bat has gone nowhere in the minors.

He's a vacum at SS though.

 

[basstapp]

Typically a free agent makes the core of a team. Look around the league.... Teams don't sign free agents to make themselves worse? Of course CC, TEX, Arod are large contributors, but all teams have their free agents. All the arguments about cap and paying money for players is stupid if your a cowboys fan.... We buy player off the market.... so were just as bad as the yankees...

Yankee fans might say they don't go and "buy" every free agent and have homegrown most of their talent, but they wouldn't be ANYWHERE without CC, Tex, & Arod.

Their main core of their team is comprised of high priced FA that they paid big $ for.

Yankees suck.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

The way I see this, it's pretty simple.

With Lee in the rotation last year, the Yankees are probably Champions again. With Lee in the rotation for Texas, the Rangers get beaten by the Giants. The real question in my mind is, assuming the Rangers can sign Lee, who else can they sign to get them over the hump?

If all things are equal between the Yankees and the Rangers, then it comes down to who else the Rangers can afford in my mind.

 

[YosemiteSam]

The way I see this, it's pretty simple.

With Lee in the rotation last year, the Yankees are probably Champions again. With Lee in the rotation for Texas, the Rangers get beaten by the Giants. The real question in my mind is, assuming the Rangers can sign Lee, who else can they sign to get them over the hump?

If all things are equal between the Yankees and the Rangers, then it comes down to who else the Rangers can afford in my mind.

The way the Giants were pitching, Yankees + Lee = WS Loss too. The Giants since September were pitching as a team at a level that I've never seen before. Pitching wins in the playoffs. They were pretty much unbeatable.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

The way the Giants were pitching, Yankees + Lee = WS Loss too. The Giants since September were pitching as a team at a level that I've never seen before. Pitching wins in the playoffs. They were pretty much unbeatable.

I don't think so NYC. I mean, it's possible, but I don't see it that way. If the Yankees had Lee and CC this year, your talking about 4 games in a 7 game rotation. No, I don't see that. Pitching does beat hitting but I don't see the Giants doing to the Yankees as they did with the Rangers if your facing CC and Lee. The Giants beat the heck out of the Rangers pitching and the Rangers just kinda stopped hitting in the series. The Rangers were definitely not swinging the bats the same way they were in the ALCS. I mean, maybe your correct but I see CC and Lee being a pretty effective 1 - 2 punch against anybody.

 

[Stautner]

The way I see this, it's pretty simple.

With Lee in the rotation last year, the Yankees are probably Champions again. With Lee in the rotation for Texas, the Rangers get beaten by the Giants. The real question in my mind is, assuming the Rangers can sign Lee, who else can they sign to get them over the hump?

If all things are equal between the Yankees and the Rangers, then it comes down to who else the Rangers can afford in my mind.

On the surface this is true, however each season is different, and a championship team isn't necessarily going to win again even with the same players, and a team that comes up short isn't necessarily going to come up short again if it has the same players.

It could be argued that keeping Lee alone might be enough for the Rangers to get over the hump because they will be a more seasoned/playoff experienced team this year, and some of the young guys like Holland, Hunter, Moreland, Borbon, Kirkland, Feliz etc... will have had a chance to mature some. The Rangers minor league system is supposed to be among the strongest in MLB, so it could be that others in the minor leagues that are close to stepping up and helping as well.

I think a top of the line catcher would be a big boost. Bengie was a nice, veteran presence, but his physical ability is limited. Other than that I don't see an real holes. We could always use upgrades like any other team, but there is no place that seams to be a weak area.

 

[YosemiteSam]

I don't think so NYC. I mean, it's possible, but I don't see it that way. If the Yankees had Lee and CC this year, your talking about 4 games in a 7 game rotation. No, I don't see that. Pitching does beat hitting but I don't see the Giants doing to the Yankees as they did with the Rangers if your facing CC and Lee. The Giants beat the heck out of the Rangers pitching and the Rangers just kinda stopped hitting in the series. The Rangers were definitely not swinging the bats the same way they were in the ALCS. I mean, maybe your correct but I see CC and Lee being a pretty effective 1 - 2 punch against anybody.

Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain would match up fine with CC and Lee. Hell, Lee lost twice when facing Lincecum and Cain was pitching far better than Big Time Timmy Jim.

The Yankees only faced Lee once and even without that the Yankees hitting was stifled for the most part by Rangers pitching. The Giants were pitching better than the Rangers. You can wear all the rose colored glasses of what could have or should have happen. Find a team in the last 50 years that pitched better than the Giants from September until the end of the WS.

The Yankees + Lee = WS loss. The Giants were pitching that good.