Yeah, the stinking Commanders dont have a 2nd & 4th next year in 2007 draft

[silverbear]

Come on...you can't possibly know the backup offensive line situation of every NFL team well enough to know where the Commanders stand in that regard. Yes, most of our depth is unproven, but that's why they're not starting somewhere...they've got to earn/lose their chance somewhere. I'd rather have them learning under Buges than anywhere else, that's for sure.

I mean, if every team could afford it, they'd love to have 10 starting-quality linemen on the roster. It just doesn't happen that way.

OK, I'll give you that much-- I don't know the offensive line personnel for the other 30 teams in the NFL... I just looked at the questionable players the Skins had for depth, and assumed that most teams-- particularly most GOOD teams-- have better depth... I KNOW the Boys have better depth on the OL...

If you'd just stop to think, you got a good preview of what happens if the injury bug bites your offensive line late last season... in their final regular season game, and two playoff games, after Randy Thomas got hurt (the FIRST serious injury to your offensive line all year), the Skins averaged less than 230 yards per game offensively, and less than 15 points per game...

A great historian once said "those who ignore history are condemned to repeat it"... well, it seems that Gibbs and Company didn't learn anything at all from the offensive debacle at the end of last season...

Most teams only carry 7-8 DBs on their roster at a given time....7 is normal.[/quote]

Actually, most teams carry 8 or 9... some have even carried 10... part of the reason for that is that backup LBs and DBs are often backbone of the kick coverage teams...

Comically enough, the SKINS were one of the teams that carried 10 DBs last year-- Carlos Rogers, Walt Harris, Dmitri Patterson, Sean Taylor, Omar Stoutmire, Ryan Clark, Pierson Prioleau, Shawn Springs, Ade Jimoh and Christian Morton... all of them got on the field for the Skins at one time or another...

The Boys also carried 10 DBs...

Once again, your "knowledge" of how the game is played is proven to be superficial, at best...

I'm extremely happy with our DLine depth. Carter/Griffin/Salave'a/Daniels are the starting front four. Wynn can rotate in at either DT or DE, Evans I've already sung the praises of can rotate in at either DT or DE as well. Killings showed he is quality depth at the DT spot last season, and put some pressure on the QB in the playoffs.

Time for a reality check here-- Evans and Killings combined for 35 tackles, 3 sacks, 0 ints, 5 passes defensed... Killings provided NONE of the sacks or passes defensed... to call him "quality depth" marks you as the witless homer we've all come to believe you are...

Montgomery and Golston both have a very good shot at cracking the roster,

Terrific-- a 5th and 6th rounder, both of whom have labels of "inconsistent" and "injury prone" coming out of college... now I'm scared... LOL...

and Nic Clemons is developing nicely into a pass-rushing DE.

ROTFLMAO... such a "nice" pass-rushing DE, that he's still looking for his first NFL sack...

You seem to be one of those message board cliches, the homer that thinks that any player who puts on his favorite team's uniform is better than he actually is, simply because his team chose him... conversely, that type sniffs at every player who moves on to another team, saying "he wasn't that good anyway"...

This is not a phenomenon exclusive to Skins fans, we have a few like that populating our Cowboys message boards, too...

Stop relying on the Post for your coverage of the Skins. The rift between the team and the post is well documented, and they are off most of the time.

Actually, I'm well aware of Danny Boy's juvenile vendetta against the Skins (seems their coverage wasn't quite fawning enough to suit him, which is presumably why he chose to buy Extremeskins when he went looking for an "official" online message board)... most of my take on the Skins does not come from that publication (I also read the Washington Times, and have approximately 20 football websites bookmarked)...

 

[silverbear]

Classy...it would be fun for you to watch one of our players get injured? I would expect that from an Eagles fan, but not so much from you guys...

I never said it would be fun watching a player get hurt, I hate it when ANYBODY gets hurt (well, OK, I enjoyed it when Theisman broke his leg, but he was SUCH a jerk, I'd have hated him no matter what team he played for)... wehat I said is it will be fun watching you guys get all bent out of shape when a critical injury or two puts a hurting on your team's chances...

Again, this is your opinion. I honestly can't say whether or not some of these guys would make every roster in the NFL...I have no idea. I'm pretty sure you don't either...you just want to make the Skins look bad.

All I said is that none of you backups could make the Cowboys' 53 man roster... and given that your top backup is Cowboys REJECT Tyson Walter, I'll stand by that statement...

You can't have it both ways -- you criticize our team's drafting, but when we do draft someone and spend 3 years developing him into a quality player, you criticize that argument as well. Which is it?? Molinaro is an example of exactly what you say the Skins don't do.

Again, do try to UNDERSTAND my argument before you attempt to respond to it... I'm not criticizing the Skins for trying to develop Molinaro, I'm saying that Molinaro must not be showing them much... I mean, he got into 14 games as a rookie, only 3 last year; does that sound like PROGRESS to you?? To me, it sounds like the coaches are beginning to have their doubts about him...

Not really. Oline depth is not a concern imo.

Then you weren't paying attention at the end of last year... if you guys had had quality depth on your OL, you would have at least made the NFC championship game, perhaps the Super Bowl...

If two starting linemen go down, we'll be in trouble. But that is the same for every team in the NFL imo...not specifically the Skins. And god forbid 3 go down; that's a death-knoll for all 32 teams.

If (god forbid) Samuels or Jansen were to go down, yes...he would become the starter. Its not that complicated, bro...

But that's not the question I asked, bro-- you suggested that Molinaro was good enough to start, and I asked you if you really believed that... not if you think he's good enough to start if Samuels or Jansen got hurt, that wouldn't be an indication of talent, but rather an indication that the Skins don't have any better to run out there...

So, do you REALLY think the guy has the ability to start in the NFL??

Dude, you said it yourself. Jansen was hurt in 04, Molinaro's rookie season. He wasn't ready yet. This will be his third season of work with the team...I think he'll be fine, if pressed into duty.

You "think"... well, that's certainly a compelling argument, giving the exhaustive, encyclopedic knowledge of the NFL that you've displayed in your arguments thus far (my favorite was how most teams carry 7 DBs, when your own team carried 10 last year)...

Pucillo has 4 years of experience in the NFL, with 18 starts. Starting experience in your second string is always a good thing. Therefore, Pucillo = sound depth. Also because I say so.

Tyson Walter has a bunch of starts too, and he still sucks...

What was that about insults again???

Hey, I'm a Golden Rule kind of Bear-- you started down the insult road, now you're reaping what you're sowing...

But in fairness, since I called you out on that, you do seem to have modified your approach a bit... out of respect for that, I'll try to soft-pedal the flaming myself from this point on...

The simple fact that they've made an NFL roster makes them promising, and the fact that they are young makes them promising young talent.

So, you're saying that each and every player who has EVER made an NFL roster is "promising"??

Excuse me while I go outside and roll on the ground with laughter... there are hundreds, perhaps thousands, of players who have hung on at the fringes of one NFL team or another for a year or two, or even three, and never accomplished jack in the league...

He's in his 4th year...I meant he'd played 3 years with the team. But yeah...keep thinking you have a clue.

YOU were the one who said he was "going into his 3rd year with the Skins"... not "he's played 3 years with the Skins"... if you simply mis-stated what you meant, just say so, and I'll drop this aspect of the argument, because sometimes we all say things just a bit clumsily, it comes out a bit differently from what we meant...

But don't go trying to defend your mis-statement by pretending it was something that it's not...

Well, genius...stats are only part of the story.

Anybody who knows how to USE those stats can tell you a LOT about what went on in a given game, even without seeing it...

Anyone familiar with football would know that. But then again....you've shown you're not too familiar with the game, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

Said the guy who has contended that most NFL teams only carry 7 DBs on their 53 man roster, even after his own favorite team carried 10 last year...

Proof? You keep getting on me to make factual arguments, but never back up any of your contentions. Hmmm...

Well, that's just a blatant lie... I have supported my opinions right down the line with statistical FACT... in response, you haven't offered any statistical facts of your own, you simply relied on the incredibly weak "stats don't tell the whole story"...

And has been in an abysmal defense since then. The one year he was surrounded by playmakers on the defense? He had 12.5 sacks. Since then, he's been played out of position in a terrible defense. Yeah, no wonder he hasn't done anything.

LOL... in 2003, the Niners ranked 13th in total defense, at 308.0 yards per game... this past season, the Skins ranked 9th, at 297.9 yards per game...

WOW, what a VASTLY superior defense he'll be playing for... and for the record, in that 2003 season, he had 6.5 sacks... and IIRC, the Niners had not yet switched to the 3-4 back then (though I'm not entirely sure about that, it seems to me that switch came in the last coupla years)...

Clearly, thinking that Andre will be able to crank out double digit sacks just because he's coming to a "superior" defense is nothing but wishful thinking on your part...

Yes. Something the stats don't show, quarterback pressures, is something he's improved on.

Really?? Do tell, how many pressures has he had the last couple-three years??

And hey, in case you forgot, the playoffs are the premiere competition. Two sacks in two games in the playoffs is very good, don't ya think??

It would be, if it had actually happened... until now, it never occurred to me that you might either be wrong, or lying about this, but I just went over to NFL.com, and looked up their Gamebooks for both playoff games... Evans did have a sack against that gawdawful Tampa Bay offensive line, but he did NOT have a sack against the Seahawks...

Oooops... so, were you just honestly wrong, or did you deliberately distort the facts??

And I don't know a single NFL fan who wouldn't be satisfied with one sack a game from any DE on their roster...

So, you're predicting 16 sacks from Demetric this season??

 

[silverbear]

Stay on topic, ******.

You whine about "insults", then give us THIS??

Hypocrisy, thy name is Jrock... :

 

[silverbear]

I've never argued against the draft. The draft is one way to go, definitely. There is no disputing that. Its just when anti-Skins haters come out and try to say the Skins are going about it the wrong way, it bothers me.

Then argue the FACTS... tell me why I'm wrong when I say that veteran free agents COST more than draft picks (especially draft picks after the first round), so that emphasizing free agency over the draft the way the Skins have leaves them less cap room to build quality depth...

The balanced draft/FA approach is proven.

Indeed it is... problem is, the Skins approach is NOT balanced...

Fact: from 2000 to 2005, the Skins have 12 players on their roster that they drafted-- Chris Samuels in 2000, nobody in 2001, Ladell Betts and Rock Cartwright in 2002, Derrick Dockery and Taylor Jacobs in 2003... Sean Taylor, Chris Cooley and Jim Molinaro in 2004... Carlos Rogers, Jason Campbell, Manuel White and Robert McCune in 2005... of that dozen, they have found just 5 starters, and a half dozen players who contributed significantly to them last year...

Contrast that to the Boys, who have 17 draft picks from the last THREE years on their roster, including 8 starters and 15 who contributed to the Boys last year... and the Boys aren't exactly ignoring free agency in the meantime...

 

[silverbear]

As I don't believe anyone could possibly play worse then Cory last year, I'll say Pucillo is an upgrade.

Well, since there's no way either of us can "prove" this aspect of the argument, I reckon we'll have to agree to disagree...

Tackles per game is not indicative of how physical a CB is; it could mean a number of things. If a CB is being picked or having a bad game he can finish with 10+ tackles. I watched a few Jag games last season; I think they made a mistake in letting Kenny go and bringing in Brian Williams to replace him.

OK, that's a valid point... and like I said all along, I like Kenny Wright...

We did win two of those games...

Because your DEFENSE played well... doesn't change the fact that your offense stunk it out all 3 games... and if the Skins received that kind of (lack of) production this year, they'd be lucky to win six games... I believe you know that, deep down...

 

[jrockster77]

I never said it would be fun watching a player get hurt, I hate it when ANYBODY gets hurt (well, OK, I enjoyed it when Theisman broke his leg, but he was SUCH a jerk, I'd have hated him no matter what team he played for)... wehat I said is it will be fun watching you guys get all bent out of shape when a critical injury or two puts a hurting on your team's chances...

Cool...you said "As much fun as it will be if one of those 7 DBs gets hurt, and you have to rely on the dreck that's left over??" I interpreted that the wrong way...its all good.

All I said is that none of you backups could make the Cowboys' 53 man roster... and given that your top backup is Cowboys REJECT Tyson Walter, I'll stand by that statement...

Actually, what you said was

"Thank you, Captain Obvious... the problem is, a lot of the players the Skins are calling "depth" wouldn't be able to make the 53 man rosters on a lot of teams out there..."

A lot of the teams out there is a liitle bit more than just the Cowboys roster, bro...http://dallascowboyszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=929297&postcount=224

Again, do try to UNDERSTAND my argument before you attempt to respond to it... I'm not criticizing the Skins for trying to develop Molinaro, I'm saying that Molinaro must not be showing them much... I mean, he got into 14 games as a rookie, only 3 last year; does that sound like PROGRESS to you?? To me, it sounds like the coaches are beginning to have their doubts about him...

He's a DEPTH player, bro....the Skins had no offensive line injuries last season until week 15 against you guys. Of course Molinaro won't see the field!!!

And when we did have an injury, it was at G...and Ray Brown was a more experienced backup. I don't think Brown starting over Molinaro was a comment on Molinaro's skills, simply a comment on his experience. In the Seatlle game, when Raymer went in I admit I was a little surprised. Again, I think its a tribute to how much Gibbs values experience, rather than Molinaro's skill.

Seriously....would a player who is no good last this long on an NFL roster??

Then you weren't paying attention at the end of last year... if you guys had had quality depth on your OL, you would have at least made the NFC championship game, perhaps the Super Bowl...

Last year it was a concern. This year its not.

But that's not the question I asked, bro-- you suggested that Molinaro was good enough to start, and I asked you if you really believed that... not if you think he's good enough to start if Samuels or Jansen got hurt, that wouldn't be an indication of talent, but rather an indication that the Skins don't have any better to run out there...

So, do you REALLY think the guy has the ability to start in the NFL??

I honestly couldn't tell you. As you've indicated, his experience in the NFL is rather limited. If he was magically an FA today, would he be talented enough to push for a spot on one of the other 31 teams starting line?? I honestly don't know him or their other lines well enough to answer that question. All I know is that Buges (who has a good eye for Oline talent) and Gibbs have kept him on for 3 years now.

You "think"... well, that's certainly a compelling argument, giving the exhaustive, encyclopedic knowledge of the NFL that you've displayed in your arguments thus far (my favorite was how most teams carry 7 DBs, when your own team carried 10 last year)...

A) I think, yes...that's backed up by articles in which Molinaro, Buges and Gibbs have said he's ready if the need presents itself. I can't honestly believe you're arguing this...

B) The Skins carried 8 DBs on the roster last season. Nice try, though....

Tyson Walter has a bunch of starts too, and he still sucks...

Your point? He's got a bunch of starts and is still in the league. So obviously, he doesn't suck that badly. He's quality depth, whether you like it or not.

But in fairness, since I called you out on that, you do seem to have modified your approach a bit... out of respect for that, I'll try to soft-pedal the flaming myself from this point on...

I give respect when I get respect...you've been mostly respectful, so I'll give it back to you.

So, you're saying that each and every player who has EVER made an NFL roster is "promising"??

Excuse me while I go outside and roll on the ground with laughter... there are hundreds, perhaps thousands, of players who have hung on at the fringes of one NFL team or another for a year or two, or even three, and never accomplished jack in the league...

Of course there are tons who haven't done anything...but how did they make an NFL roster??? because they were promising, and had the talent and physical tools to make an impact. You honestly can't argue with that. How do YOU think people make NFL rosters?? You think its a random-selection process??? LOL...

YOU were the one who said he was "going into his 3rd year with the Skins"... not "he's played 3 years with the Skins"... if you simply mis-stated what you meant, just say so, and I'll drop this aspect of the argument, because sometimes we all say things just a bit clumsily, it comes out a bit differently from what we meant...

Thought I said that already...I misstated. My bad.

Anybody who knows how to USE those stats can tell you a LOT about what went on in a given game, even without seeing it...

Yeah...you could look at the Eagles vs. Chargers game last year and say wow, LT only had 17 yards. The Eagles defense was stellar last year, or LT is the worst back in football.

Yeah...stats tell the entire story.

Said the guy who has contended that most NFL teams only carry 7 DBs on their 53 man roster, even after his own favorite team carried 10 last year...

Okay, for the second time, the Skins carried 8 last year...

Well, that's just a blatant lie... I have supported my opinions right down the line with statistical FACT... in response, you haven't offered any statistical facts of your own, you simply relied on the incredibly weak "stats don't tell the whole story"...

Stats don't tell the entire story. That is a FACT.

LOL... in 2003, the Niners ranked 13th in total defense, at 308.0 yards per game... this past season, the Skins ranked 9th, at 297.9 yards per game...

lmao...you bring up one year out of 4, and that's some sort of proof....LOL. How about 2005 when they were 32nd over all??? How about 2004 when they were 24th overall??? How about that???

WOW, what a VASTLY superior defense he'll be playing for... and for the record, in that 2003 season, he had 6.5 sacks... and IIRC, the Niners had not yet switched to the 3-4 back then (though I'm not entirely sure about that, it seems to me that switch came in the last coupla years)...

Yeah...it is a vastly superior defense. To say the Gregg Williams coached Skins' defense is not vastly superior to the 9ers defense is to display ignorance beyond measure.

Clearly, thinking that Andre will be able to crank out double digit sacks just because he's coming to a "superior" defense is nothing but wishful thinking on your part...

When did I say he would crank out double-digit sacks?? In fact, I predicted (possibly in this thread) that he would have 8-10 sacks. That's hardly saying he WILL have double-digit sacks...

Really?? Do tell, how many pressures has he had the last couple-three years??

I assume you're asking about Evans. I don't know...I don't know where to find that stat. I was referring to last year, in which his quarterback pressures increased. This comes from WATCHING THE GAMES, not from some website. Believe it or not, but Evans' pressures have increased. If you'd watched all the games you claimed to have watched, you'd know that was true.

It would be, if it had actually happened... until now, it never occurred to me that you might either be wrong, or lying about this, but I just went over to NFL.com, and looked up their Gamebooks for both playoff games... Evans did have a sack against that gawdawful Tampa Bay offensive line, but he did NOT have a sack against the Seahawks...

Oooops... so, were you just honestly wrong, or did you deliberately distort the facts??

I honestly remember Evans getting a sack in that game...I guess I must concede defeat. He definitely had at the very least a knockdown in that game.

So, you're predicting 16 sacks from Demetric this season??

Uhhh....never said that. And no, I'm not predicting 16 sacks from Demetric Evans....

 

[jrockster77]

Then argue the FACTS... tell me why I'm wrong when I say that veteran free agents COST more than draft picks (especially draft picks after the first round)

Vets do cost more than draft picks. That's not in dispute.

[qutoe], so that emphasizing free agency over the draft the way the Skins have leaves them less cap room to build quality depth...[/quote]

Well, we're in dispute as to what "quality depth" is, so that argument will never be settled. I think the Skins have quality depth, you don't. No one will be able to say for sure until this season is over. God forbid either the Skins or Pukes have to test their depth. I hope we're both healthy all season. (Funny, that's the third time I've said that, but you haven't reflected it. Are you wishing injury upon the Skins???)

Indeed it is... problem is, the Skins approach is NOT balanced...

Fact: from 2000 to 2005, the Skins have 12 players on their roster that they drafted-- Chris Samuels in 2000, nobody in 2001, Ladell Betts and Rock Cartwright in 2002, Derrick Dockery and Taylor Jacobs in 2003... Sean Taylor, Chris Cooley and Jim Molinaro in 2004... Carlos Rogers, Jason Campbell, Manuel White and Robert McCune in 2005... of that dozen, they have found just 5 starters, and a half dozen players who contributed significantly to them last year...

Okay....so its not balanced. Its working, obviously...the Skins went from 6-10 to 10-6 and playoff victors. That was only the beginning, whether you like it or not.

Contrast that to the Boys, who have 17 draft picks from the last THREE years on their roster, including 8 starters and 15 who contributed to the Boys last year... and the Boys aren't exactly ignoring free agency in the meantime...

Okay....and what did they do last season??? NOTHING.

 

[silverbear]

Cool...you said "As much fun as it will be if one of those 7 DBs gets hurt, and you have to rely on the dreck that's left over??" I interpreted that the wrong way...its all good.

Fair enough... communicating via the written word can be imprecise on these boards...

Actually, what you said was

"Thank you, Captain Obvious... the problem is, a lot of the players the Skins are calling "depth" wouldn't be able to make the 53 man rosters on a lot of teams out there..."

Ahhh, you're right, I remember that now... my turn to concede the point...

He's a DEPTH player, bro....the Skins had no offensive line injuries last season until week 15 against you guys. Of course Molinaro won't see the field!!! [/.quote]

You missed my point-- if Molinaro has game, you can bet the Skins would have figured out how to get him on the field more, injury or no injury... coaches like having a player who can give their starters a breather during the course of a game...

And when we did have an injury, it was at G...and Ray Brown was a more experienced backup. I don't think Brown starting over Molinaro was a comment on Molinaro's skills, simply a comment on his experience.

And I don't think Molinaro has ever played guard, has he?? Again, I wasn't talking about getting on the field via injury...

Seriously....would a player who is no good last this long on an NFL roster??

Randal Williams (for years, my pet whipping boy on the Cowboys) lasted 4 years with the Cowboys, and had all of TWO receptions in that time... so yeah, sometimes coaches fall in love with a player who's not really all that good... I could give you other examples of players who hung on in the league for a couple-three years, and never really did jack...

Last year it was a concern. This year its not.

And why, pray tell, isn't it?? You guys added Tyson Walter and Mike Pucillo, subtracted Ray Brown and Cory Raymer... that is NOT a net gain...

I honestly couldn't tell you.

Well, that kind of honesty won't get you insulted by this ol' Bear...

All I know is that Buges (who has a good eye for Oline talent) and Gibbs have kept him on for 3 years now.

Which might be an indication that they have failed to bring in sufficient quality offensive linemen...

Seriously, for the last 2 years now I have expected Gibbs to address his offensive line aggressively, and I can't for the life of me figure out why he hasn't... I mean, he seems to be trying to resurrect the Smurfs (LOL), but his REAL trademark the first time around was the Hogs... and that bunch certainly had good players to bring in if somebody went down... though I recognize that there was no salary cap to contend with back then, I certainly thought that his first priority would be to build a dominating offensive line, one with quality depth...

Perhaps that's because I think the real secret to the Cowboys in their glory days of the 90s was that offensive line, which I feel was the best in the history of the game (no, I'm not kidding)...

A dominating offensive line even helps your defense...

A) I think, yes...that's backed up by articles in which Molinaro, Buges and Gibbs have said he's ready if the need presents itself. I can't honestly believe you're arguing this...

What exactly do you EXPECT them to say?? Do you accept every declaration from Commanders park as the gospel??

B) The Skins carried 8 DBs on the roster last season. Nice try, though....

You're simply WRONG... I listed 10 different DBs that played for them last year, and don't recall ANY DBs going on IR...

Your point? He's got a bunch of starts and is still in the league. So obviously, he doesn't suck that badly. He's quality depth, whether you like it or not.

ROTFLMAO... I watched every game that Tyson Walter played... he ONLY got on the field when injuries forced the Boys to play him...

If you think he's quality depth, you're in for a RUDE awakening... he was roundly detested by most Cowboys fans when he left town...

I give respect when I get respect...you've been mostly respectful, so I'll give it back to you.

And I trust you've noticed that I've made some effort this morning to bag the insults... I've noticed that your approach has changed...

Of course there are tons who haven't done anything...but how did they make an NFL roster??? because they were promising, and had the talent and physical tools to make an impact. You honestly can't argue with that. How do YOU think people make NFL rosters?? You think its a random-selection process??? LOL...

Making an NFL roster, and being good enough to PLAY WELL in the NFL are two rather different things... perhaps you're satisfied to bring in some stiff who's hung on in the league for a few years, but I'd rather have players who have shown some TALENT in the league...

Yeah...you could look at the Eagles vs. Chargers game last year and say wow, LT only had 17 yards. The Eagles defense was stellar last year, or LT is the worst back in football.

Or it could mean that the Chargers fell behind early, and had to go to the pass to catch up... I'll tell you what, remind me what week the game was played, and I'll go into the stats at NFL.com, and see if I can give you reasons why LT had such a subpar game...

You have to look at ALL the stats, and how they relate to each other, to analyze a game... simply saying "LT only had 17 yards" is a SHALLOW analysis...

or the second time, the Skins carried 8 last year...

Carlos Rogers
Shawn Springs
Walt Harris
Ade Jimoh
Sean Taylor
Ryan Clark
Pierson Prioleau
Omar Stoutmire
Dmitri Patterson
Christian Morton

NFL.com shows that ALL these defensive backs played for the Skins at some point last season... by my count, that looks like ten DBs... and I don't recall ANY DB going on IR (the first Skin to hit that list was David Patten, the next was Randy Thomas after week 14)...

Again, your saying it's so doesn't make it so, not when NFL.com says you're wrong...

on't tell the entire story. That is a FACT.

If you know how to use them, you can analyze ballgames quite well, actually...

.you bring up one year out of 4, and that's some sort of proof....

It does when my original argument was that EVERY team Mike Pucillo played for had a lousy offense... clearly, that wasn't the case with Kosier...

it is a vastly superior defense. To say the Gregg Williams coached Skins' defense is not vastly superior to the 9ers defense is to display ignorance beyond measure.

You guys finished 9th in the NFL in total defense last year... that's hardly dominating... if the Skins were so superior to that Niners defense, that superiority WOULD be reflected in the stats sheet...

 

[silverbear]

Vets do cost more than draft picks. That's not in dispute.

OK, if you're intellectually flexible enough to admit that truth, then it logically follows that the rest of my argument holds up as well-- if the Skins emphasize veteran free agents over draft picks, then they're gonna pay those free agents more than the same number of draftees... and since the salary cap is a fixed number each year, it logically follows that the tradeoff for the Skins is less money to fill out the bottom of the roster, and thus lower quality players as your depth...

[qutoe], so that emphasizing free agency over the draft the way the Skins have leaves them less cap room to build quality depth...[/quote]

God forbid either the Skins or Pukes have to test their depth. I hope we're both healthy all season. (Funny, that's the third time I've said that, but you haven't reflected it. Are you wishing injury upon the Skins???)

Nope, simply commenting on what the result would be if that happened... I'd much rather play all the teams on our schedule at full strength, victories over good, healthy teams are SO much more enjoyable than wins over beat-up, struggling teams...

Okay....so its not balanced. Its working, obviously...the Skins went from 6-10 to 10-6 and playoff victors. That was only the beginning, whether you like it or not.

Reflect on this-- that's EXACTLY what we said after 2003, when we went 10-6, made the playoffs, had the best defense in all of football (statistically)...

And the next year, we went right in the tank... the difference?? INJURIES...

Okay....and what did they do last season??? NOTHING.

9-7 is "nothing"?? From a team that was implementing an entirely new defense, and suffered critical injuries rather early in their season to their best offensive lineman and TWO starting linebackers??

Naw, that couldn't POSSIBLY be it; after all, linebackers aren't that important in a 3-4 scheme, are they??

 

[jrockster77]

You missed my point-- if Molinaro has game, you can bet the Skins would have figured out how to get him on the field more, injury or no injury... coaches like having a player who can give their starters a breather during the course of a game...

Actually, that's not true at all. Gibbs and Buges are firm believers of the offensive line staying in the whole game. You'd be hard pressed to find Oline backups with a lot of playing time from the 80s skins, except due to injury. The starting 5 stay in the entire game. Bill Parcells substitutes offensive linement frequently, but he's a rarity in the NFL.

Randal Williams (for years, my pet whipping boy on the Cowboys) lasted 4 years with the Cowboys, and had all of TWO receptions in that time... so yeah, sometimes coaches fall in love with a player who's not really all that good... I could give you other examples of players who hung on in the league for a couple-three years, and never really did jack...

Doesn't mean he wasn't talented...maybe he was in the wrong system.

And why, pray tell, isn't it?? You guys added Tyson Walter and Mike Pucillo, subtracted Ray Brown and Cory Raymer... that is NOT a net gain...

Ray Brown was going to be 44 this season. FOURTY-FOUR!!!![\i][\b] He had to retire sooner or later...and if he stayed around, at some point his age was gonna catch up to him. As far as Raymer was concerned; he was terrible last year. I would be an upgrade over Raymer.

Which might be an indication that they have failed to bring in sufficient quality offensive linemen...

Your opinion....but that's fine...

Seriously, for the last 2 years now I have expected Gibbs to address his offensive line aggressively, and I can't for the life of me figure out why he hasn't... I mean, he seems to be trying to resurrect the Smurfs (LOL), but his REAL trademark the first time around was the Hogs... and that bunch certainly had good players to bring in if somebody went down... though I recognize that there was no salary cap to contend with back then, I certainly thought that his first priority would be to build a dominating offensive line, one with quality depth...

I as well have been a little surprised there hasn't been more attention paid to the offensive line. To me, however, that's more a compliment to the guys we have here than anything else. He has gone after a lot of UDFAs and opposing team rejects.

IF you remember in his first tenure, a few of the great hogs were late-round draft picks and opposing team rejects. Raleight McKenzie was an 11th rounder, Jacoby was undrafted, Bostic was an Eagles reject, and Mark Schlereth was a 10th rounder.

I'm NOT saying that Tyson Walter and company will be the next hogs, I'm simply saying that Gibbs and co. have a history of taking rejects and UDFAs an turning them into excellent linemen. That's all I'm saying.

Perhaps that's because I think the real secret to the Cowboys in their glory days of the 90s was that offensive line, which I feel was the best in the history of the game (no, I'm not kidding)...

I happen to agree with you. That offensive line was simply the most dominating in the history of the game. Its a big reason why I think Emmit Smith is really overrated...he's a great back, but not top ten all-time in my opinion. I don't want to get into that debate, so let's not. But that Cowboy's offensive line was DOMINANT. And to their credit, every one of them was drafted. That says a lot about Johnson and his staff...

However, Gibbs and Bugle formed one of the more dominating offensive lines in NFL history as well, with the Hogs. And as I said before, some were late-round picks and FA pickups. Bostic was an FA pickup, and Lachey came in a trade with the Raiders. McKenzie and Schlereth were late-round draft picks.

Like I said....there is more than one way to form a team.

Making an NFL roster, and being good enough to PLAY WELL in the NFL are two rather different things... perhaps you're satisfied to bring in some stiff who's hung on in the league for a few years, but I'd rather have players who have shown some TALENT in the league...

Of course...but NFL talent evaluators do this as a job, nonstop all day. Players who aren't any good are out of the league. If they've got the tools, they stick around. Tyson Walter obviously shows some sort of promise, or the Skins would not have brought him in.

Or it could mean that the Chargers fell behind early, and had to go to the pass to catch up... I'll tell you what, remind me what week the game was played, and I'll go into the stats at NFL.com, and see if I can give you reasons why LT had such a subpar game...

Week 7.

Dmitri Patterson
Christian Morton

NFL.com shows that ALL these defensive backs played for the Skins at some point last season... by my count, that looks like ten DBs... and I don't recall ANY DB going on IR (the first Skin to hit that list was David Patten, the next was Randy Thomas after week 14)...

Dimitri Patterson was brought up from the practice squad late-season when Springs was injured. Christian Morton was also a late-season addition from the practice squad. I'm not sure if you're counting the PS as part of the main roster, but I was not.

It does when my original argument was that EVERY team Mike Pucillo played for had a lousy offense... clearly, that wasn't the case with Kosier...

You misquoted me...I was referring to your comment about San Francisco's defense....that certainly has no effect on Mike PUcillo's stats... However, Pucillo played for some crappy teams. Yeah, maybe that's a reflection of the oline in general, but you can't possibly pinpoint Pucillo as the problem. He was not the full-time starter on any of those teams.

You guys finished 9th in the NFL in total defense last year... that's hardly dominating... if the Skins were so superior to that Niners defense, that superiority WOULD be reflected in the stats sheet...

Comparing 2003 to 2005 is apples to oranges...especially in this era of parity. The NFC in 2003 was vastly inferior to the AFC. In 2005, there was a turnaround and NFC offenses became more powerful. In 2004, with a terrible NFC offense, the Skins still managed a 3rd overall ranking. Where's that in your stats???

 

[jrockster77]

OK, if you're intellectually flexible enough to admit that truth, then it logically follows that the rest of my argument holds up as well-- if the Skins emphasize veteran free agents over draft picks, then they're gonna pay those free agents more than the same number of draftees... and since the salary cap is a fixed number each year, it logically follows that the tradeoff for the Skins is less money to fill out the bottom of the roster, and thus lower quality players as your depth...

Unless of course you structure free-agent contracts in such a way as to have minimal impact on the salary cap. And Walter and Pucillo have very small contracts.

, so that emphasizing free agency over the draft the way the Skins have leaves them less cap room to build quality depth...

Yeah, you are correct.

Nope, simply commenting on what the result would be if that happened... I'd much rather play all the teams on our schedule at full strength, victories over good, healthy teams are SO much more enjoyable than wins over beat-up, struggling teams...

I agree...it will be super-sweet beating a full-strength Poke team twice this year!! :toast2:

Reflect on this-- that's EXACTLY what we said after 2003, when we went 10-6, made the playoffs, had the best defense in all of football (statistically)...

And the next year, we went right in the tank... the difference?? INJURIES...

Relevance??

9-7 is "nothing"?? From a team that was implementing an entirely new defense, and suffered critical injuries rather early in their season to their best offensive lineman and TWO starting linebackers??

IIRC, everyone except the Eagles went 6-10 in 2004, the year after 2003. This is what I was referring to.

Naw, that couldn't POSSIBLY be it; after all, linebackers aren't that important in a 3-4 scheme, are they??

But, but, but....your argument is that the Cowboys draft well and develope quality depth. Therefore, injuries shouldn't effect them as severely as every other team, right??? Right???

Or maybe, injuries (especially to mulitple starters) are devastating to ANY team, regardless of their offseason strategies. Notice the Steelers remained relatively healthy throughout the season...What if Toothlessburger had had his motorcycle accident week 16 last year, instead of a couple weeks ago?? They'd have been in deep doo doo, and I guarantee they would not have made the superbowl.

 

[silverbear]

Doesn't mean he wasn't talented...maybe he was in the wrong system.

Naw, he's pretty much stunk with the Raiders, too... they're trying to turn him into a TE...

As far as Raymer was concerned; he was terrible last year. I would be an upgrade over Raymer.

Then you'd also be an upgrade over Walter and Pucillo, LOL... amd even at FORTY FOUR, Ray Brown is better than all 3 of them... the Skins certainly didn't WANT him to retire, they would have loved for him to come back for another year...

Brown was amazing, a freak of nature... coincidentally, the only other NFL player I ever remember playing at such a high level well into his 40s was another Skin-- Darrell Green... he was even more amazing, because his game was pure speed...

IF you remember in his first tenure, a few of the great hogs were late-round draft picks and opposing team rejects. Raleight McKenzie was an 11th rounder, Jacoby was undrafted, Bostic was an Eagles reject, and Mark Schlereth was a 10th rounder.

I'm NOT saying that Tyson Walter and company will be the next hogs, I'm simply saying that Gibbs and co. have a history of taking rejects and UDFAs an turning them into excellent linemen. That's all I'm saying.

And while I concede that argument has a bit of validity, I'm telling you I KNOW Tyson Walter, and God Almighty couldn't turn him into a good offensive lineman...

I happen to agree with you. That offensive line was simply the most dominating in the history of the game. But that Cowboy's offensive line was DOMINANT. And to their credit, every one of them was drafted.

Most of them, but not ALL of them... Ray Donaldson and John Gesek come to mind, both free agent acquisitions...

That says a lot about Johnson and his staff...

Actually, I've always thought that Jimmy was overrated when it came to the draft... his secret was that he had a LOT of draft picks each year, so his misses didn't hurt so bad... but I still remember the Rhondy Westons he drafted, too...

Of course...but NFL talent evaluators do this as a job, nonstop all day. Players who aren't any good are out of the league. If they've got the tools, they stick around. Tyson Walter obviously shows some sort of promise, or the Skins would not have brought him in.

I'll bet that lack of cap flexibility led them to bringing in two fringe offensive linemen... personally, I would have chosen between Randle El and Lloyd, not gone after both of them, and used the extra cap room to secure the services of one of the better offensive linemen available...

For example, just ponder what the Skins' offensive line would have looked like if they brought in LeCharles Bentley... he would have been a HUGE upgrade at center, and Casey Rabach would have made a terrific backup at all 3 interior line positions... or if injuries struck your starting guards, Bentley could have played there, with Rabach stepping back in at center...

Dimitri Patterson was brought up from the practice squad late-season when Springs was injured. Christian Morton was also a late-season addition from the practice squad. I'm not sure if you're counting the PS as part of the main roster, but I was not.

OK, turns out that Morton started his season with the Falcons, and played in 3 games at least before they cut him loose... looks like he didn't join the Skins until sometime before 11/24... but Patterson was not a "late-season addition", his first game with the Skins was in week 6, against the Chiefs...

So, even if the Skins might have STARTED the season with just 8 DBs, they clearly gambled on going injury free (as they have on the offensive line for a while now), and when the injury bug bit, they did indeed wind up with ten DBs on their active roster...

I'd say their roster composition at the END of the season is more telling than at the BEGINNING of the season, wouldn't you?? And at the end of last season, they did have 10 DBs on their roster...

You misquoted me...I was referring to your comment about San Francisco's defense....that certainly has no effect on Mike PUcillo's stats...

Whoa, that was pretty braindead of me... I guess I was more tired than I thought when I responded that way... LOL...

However, Pucillo played for some crappy teams. Yeah, maybe that's a reflection of the oline in general, but you can't possibly pinpoint Pucillo as the problem. He was not the full-time starter on any of those teams.

Ahhh, so the guy couldn't even earn a fulltime starting job on what you freely characterize as "some crappy teams"... this tells me that he wasn't as good as the fulltime starters on those crappy offensive line...

Comparing 2003 to 2005 is apples to oranges...especially in this era of parity.

Yeah, the game has changed SO much over the intervening TWO YEARS... what could I have possibly been thinking??

In 2004, with a terrible NFC offense, the Skins still managed a 3rd overall ranking. Where's that in your stats???

Well, the Boys didn't have a great offense in 2003 when they ranked first, either... they were 15th in the league... 18th in yards per play...

I'm not sure what point you were trying to make with that last bit...

 

[silverbear]

Unless of course you structure free-agent contracts in such a way as to have minimal impact on the salary cap. And Walter and Pucillo have very small contracts.

Ahhh, but they're the exception, not the rule... and even their "small contracts" are signifcantly larger than your average everyday second day draft pick can expect...

Then there's Archuleta, Lloyd, Carter, Randle El... there aren't many FIRST round draft picks who will make their kind of dollars this year... certainly, no first rounder drafted in the 20s (where the Skins would have been drafting) would command that kind of money...

But, but, but....your argument is that the Cowboys draft well and develope quality depth. Therefore, injuries shouldn't effect them as severely as every other team, right??? Right???

The Cowboys have only started drafting well since Parcells came on board (actually, since Jeff Ireland replaced Larry Lacewell as director of scouting)... so this year, they should be less vulnerable than they were last year... and next year, hopefully, even less vulnerable...

Notice the Steelers remained relatively healthy throughout the season...

Now that's a REAL good argument, but the same one can be made for the Skins... only two players go on IR in the course of the entire regular season?? That's incredibly good luck...

In this age of parity that you referred to earlier, it seems to me that the key to winning big is to stay healthy... teams that get hurt fall out of the hunt, but teams that were lightly regarded going into the season surprise people when they stay relatively injury-free... but one way of beating that requirement is to develop quality depth, as much as you possibly can...

Which rather reinforces what I said at the outset, if the Skins stay HEALTHY, they'll be really tough... but if they don't...

Yeah, on a certain level, that's true of all NFL teams, but it's more true for the Skins than most teams, indeed it might be more true for the Skins than any other NFL team...

Let me sum up my argument for you-- these days, it seems to me that the model for building a consistent, year in and year out contender is either the Iggles or the Pats... their approach is to build through the draft, to try to tie their best young players up to long-term deals before they hit free agency, and only then to plug holes via free agency... that's the model that the Boys seem to be following these days, and from where this Cowboys fan sits, they're doing a pretty good job of it... they have some major players who are coming up for free agency next year, but they have the cap room to get Jason Witten, Roy Williams and Bradie James fair value deals THIS year...

Conversely (and this is an argument you've heard already from me), if you try to build through free agency, as the Skins are doing, you're not going to be able to afford quality depth down the line... you might find an undrafted rookie free agent or two who surprises you and helps the depth, but for the most part, your bench players will represent a fairly serious dropoff in talent from your starters... so to employ such a method is to consciously decide to risk your team staying healthy for an entire season...

And since the Skins are using the latter method, I stand by my contention that they'll do well as long as they stay healthy, but will struggle if the injuries start to mount up...

 

[Birdlives]

Wow. I'm so far behind it's not even funny.

Wish I could spend the time to catch up and re-enter the debate, but I just don't have it. I will say one thing though. Silverbear, one important fact that may interest you.

Yes, Saunders ran a two back set in KC. I wasn't referring to that. I was referring to the one back 3Wr set he will be running in Washington. Check it out if you want the truth. That is what I was referring to in my previous post. The Skins don't have a Tony Richardson, so in an effort work with the personell the Skins do have, Saunders is adjusting to a one back 3 wr base set. I'll leave the rest of the debate to Jrock as I've fallen too far behind. I also said I wouldn't post agin in this debate so I'm holding myself to that.

Peace...

 

[Bob Sacamano]

However, there are some problems with your theory:

1) Not EVERY team that Kosier played for had a lousy offense; in 2003, the Niners actually ranked 5th in the league in total offense, and Kyle started 12 of those games... the Detroit line last year tied for the 6th fewest sacks allowed, Kosier only allowed 4

2) Kosier was MUCH more highly rated in free agency this year than Pucillo was, and was in fact sought by a number of other teams before the Boys snapped him up almost immediately after free agency started... meanwhile, I didn't read of ANY other team showing interest in Pucillo, except his former team, the Browns... part of this is because Kosier can play every position except center (though he's quite marginal as a tackle, in all honesty), while Pucillo is more or less a center, and nothing else... Kosier was sought after by 8 teams to be exact

my only complaits with your answers

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Okay....so its not balanced. Its working, obviously...the Skins went from 6-10 to 10-6 and playoff victors. That was only the beginning, whether you like it or not.

wait, didn't you guys get ousted in the divisional game?

 

[silverbear]

Wow. I'm so far behind it's not even funny.

Wish I could spend the time to catch up and re-enter the debate, but I just don't have it. I will say one thing though. Silverbear, one important fact that may interest you.

Yes, Saunders ran a two back set in KC. I wasn't referring to that. I was referring to the one back 3Wr set he will be running in Washington. Check it out if you want the truth. That is what I was referring to in my previous post. The Skins don't have a Tony Richardson, so in an effort work with the personell the Skins do have, Saunders is adjusting to a one back 3 wr base set.

And my point has been that you don't know if Saunders will be as successful in a different scheme...

 

[Bob Sacamano]

And my point has been that you don't know if Saunders will be as successful in a different scheme...

hey, what was that about hitting me over the head with a 2X4?

 

[silverbear]

hey, what was that about hitting me over the head with a 2X4?

Don't be defensive, wild man, the same is true for your friendly local Bear...

Mebbe that's why I like ya, we're kindred spirits-- muleheaded to a fault... LOL...

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Mebbe that's why I like ya, we're kindred spirits-- muleheaded to a fault... LOL...

and proud of it :laugh1: