YR's Pro Wrestling of the Day

MichaelWinicki

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Ric Flair, the greatest of all time. Far from perfect, and not the greatest in any one particular area, but the greatest combination of everything it takes to be a Pro wrestler.

Nobody ever worked harder or played harder. He didn't just act the part, he lived the part. For better and for worse.

Arguably the greatest from the 80's on.

Some folks would say Hogan (even though I'm not a big fan, I understand his affect on the business).

Pre 1980's... I'd say Thesz.

In the 40's & 50's pro wrestling was a huge draw... Bigger probably than anything we've seen since... Well since the territory period ended. It was even on the major networks. And Thesz was a huge part of that. He not only was an incredible worker but he was a legit tough guy who could "shoot" in the ring when necessary. He was a big reason wrestling exploded in popularity during that time period.
 

Yakuza Rich

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Why did Gary Hart leave?

Money issues with Fritz.

Hart was actually pretty fair and nice about Fritz in his book. IIRC, there was a standard percentage of the gate that bookers would get, regardless of territory. Gary acknowledged that rate was becoming passe and could understand why Fritz wanted to lower it, but he lowered it too much.

Gary pretty much said nice things about Fritz, but the one hangup Fritz had was over money. To the point where Fritz would make sure that his sons were lowballed. Fritz looked at it as him being anti-nepotism, but Gary said that the Von Erich's were the major draws and deserved that main event money. And while Fritz wasn't an abusive father, if he controlled your livelihood that could be more abusive than a father that beats his children.




YR
 

Yakuza Rich

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I always thought Flair's best was from '89 to '93. He may have been able to do more stuff athletically earlier in his career, but I grew tired of two things Flair would do:

1. Get almost no offense in a match and then win by the skin of his teeth.

2. Cutting these stark raving mad lunatic promos.

Getting no offense in works for a little while, but if it goes on too much then it comes off as both guys are incompetent. The heel is incompetent because he can't get offense in and the face is incompetent because he cannot beat a guy who cannot get any offense in.

The stark raving mad lunatic promos just became a bit too much. He's the Nature Boy, so he's supposed to be more sophisticated than other wrestlers. I actually thought that Shane Douglas, from '94 thru his feud with the Pit Bulls in '97 was playing that type of role better than Flair was as Douglas cut these beautiful promos that drew heat without having to yell and they were very memorable and quotable.

But from '89-'93 in WCW, Flair to me was at his best as far as in-ring work, getting offense in and cutting promos. He had the feud with Steamboat, then the one with Terry Funk. Afterward, he went to the WWF and that's when he fell back into his lack of offense in matches...but when he returned to WCW, he was awesome wrestling Vader and cutting promos like this one:






YR
 

MichaelWinicki

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I always thought Flair's best was from '89 to '93. He may have been able to do more stuff athletically earlier in his career, but I grew tired of two things Flair would do:

1. Get almost no offense in a match and then win by the skin of his teeth.

2. Cutting these stark raving mad lunatic promos.

Getting no offense in works for a little while, but if it goes on too much then it comes off as both guys are incompetent. The heel is incompetent because he can't get offense in and the face is incompetent because he cannot beat a guy who cannot get any offense in.

The stark raving mad lunatic promos just became a bit too much. He's the Nature Boy, so he's supposed to be more sophisticated than other wrestlers. I actually thought that Shane Douglas, from '94 thru his feud with the Pit Bulls in '97 was playing that type of role better than Flair was as Douglas cut these beautiful promos that drew heat without having to yell and they were very memorable and quotable.

But from '89-'93 in WCW, Flair to me was at his best as far as in-ring work, getting offense in and cutting promos. He had the feud with Steamboat, then the one with Terry Funk. Afterward, he went to the WWF and that's when he fell back into his lack of offense in matches...but when he returned to WCW, he was awesome wrestling Vader and cutting promos like this one:






YR



I went the other direction with Flair... Taking '76 through '82. He started out fine as World Champ and then as the years piled on, the offense became less & less (as you pointed out).

And as US Champ in the Mid-Atlantic area? Just terrific. That's what caught the attention of the folks on the NWA board who decided the Heavyweight title thing.
 

MichaelWinicki

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Money issues with Fritz.

Hart was actually pretty fair and nice about Fritz in his book. IIRC, there was a standard percentage of the gate that bookers would get, regardless of territory. Gary acknowledged that rate was becoming passe and could understand why Fritz wanted to lower it, but he lowered it too much.

Gary pretty much said nice things about Fritz, but the one hangup Fritz had was over money. To the point where Fritz would make sure that his sons were lowballed. Fritz looked at it as him being anti-nepotism, but Gary said that the Von Erich's were the major draws and deserved that main event money. And while Fritz wasn't an abusive father, if he controlled your livelihood that could be more abusive than a father that beats his children.




YR

I gotta think there were some underlying issues with Fritz that contributed to the huge tragedy that befell that family.
 

Yakuza Rich

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I gotta think there were some underlying issues with Fritz that contributed to the huge tragedy that befell that family.

According to Gary, Fritz was fine with the boys, but he did hang the money over their head and Gary felt that was as bad as anything you could do to a person. If you control their livelihood and ability to make money, then you essentially control that person.

Also according to Gary, Ken Mantell really let the drug use get out of hand when Mantell took over as booker. Gary was pretty strict about drug use and alcohol as a booker. He didn't want anybody bringing drugs or alcohol to the locker room and if he felt it hurt a wrestler's ability in the ring...he would try and get them help, but sooner or later they would be gone if they didn't get cleaned up. Gary stated that when he came back to World Class the state of the lockerroom was in disarray because of drugs.





YR
 

MichaelWinicki

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According to Gary, Fritz was fine with the boys, but he did hang the money over their head and Gary felt that was as bad as anything you could do to a person. If you control their livelihood and ability to make money, then you essentially control that person.

Also according to Gary, Ken Mantell really let the drug use get out of hand when Mantell took over as booker. Gary was pretty strict about drug use and alcohol as a booker. He didn't want anybody bringing drugs or alcohol to the locker room and if he felt it hurt a wrestler's ability in the ring...he would try and get them help, but sooner or later they would be gone if they didn't get cleaned up. Gary stated that when he came back to World Class the state of the lockerroom was in disarray because of drugs.





YR

If Kevin ever came out with a book... That would be interesting.
 

Yakuza Rich

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While we can argue if Ric Flair was the greatest all around pro wrestler to have ever lived, I can argue that Eddy Guerrero was the most underrated all around pro wrestler that has ever lived. I would certainly put him up in the Tully Blanchard category. As you might recall, Blanchard was my candidate for the most underrated pro wrestler of all time.


Eddy Guerrero was the son Gory Guerrero and started to roll around in the pro wrestling ring as a child. Gory and his sons Chavo, Mando and Hector are severely unheralded in terms of their relevance in pro wrestling. They were each substantial draws in not only Mexico, but Los Angeles in the old Labell territory, Arizona and San Antonio and El Paso. And when you look at Eddy’s ability to draw in AAA as part of the Los Gringos Locos with Art Barr and then in the WWE, the Guerrero’s may have been the best drawing family of wrestlers of all time. Furthermore, unlike the Hart and Von Erich families the Guerreros were not a disaster of family tragedy and scandal.


Eddy started out wrestling in CMLL in Mexico. CMLL is more of a family friendly and conservative style of promotion in Mexico. As accustomed with luchadores, Eddy donned a mask and used the gimmick Mascara Magica (Magic Mask). He soon quit CMLL to go to the new and hip AAA promotion. The problem was that CMLL owned the rights to the Mascara Magica gimmick. Eddy actually showed up to a AAA show as Mascara Magica, only to immediately voluntarily unmask himself as Eddy Guerrero which had never been done before.


From there, Eddie teamed with the son of El Santo…El Hijo Del Santo. Eddie’s father, Gory, had a famous tag team with El Santo called the ‘Atomic Pair’ and by Eddie teaming with El Hijo Del Santo, this was a reprise of The Atomic Pair. However, Eddy then turned heel on El Hijo Del Santo by siding with gringo, Art Barr.


This drew volcanic heat because not only did Eddie voluntarily unmask himself months before, but turning on a Mexican wrestler like El Hijo Del Santo for an American wrestler was sacrilege. But even more, there was some logic to the turn as Eddie is American himself having been born and raised in El Paso, Texas. By voluntarily unmasking and then turning heel for Barr, it was a slap in the face to all Mexican people. The also formed The Los Gringos Locos stable with Louie Spicolli and Konnan, who at one point was one of the most over wrestlers I’ve ever seen in a territory. Konnan is also American as he hails from Miami.


This formulated my favorite tag team of all time…Art Barr and Eddie Guerrero.


This is what I always felt was the foolishness of Kevin Nash and WCW. There was an idea that Eddie couldn’t cut a promo and lacked charisma, but having watched a lot of AAA during that time that was far from the truth.





Where Eddie learned all of those years from his father and brothers on how to wrestle and then learned from El Hijo Del Santo, Barr helped him learn how to really work as a heel as Barr was the 2nd best natural heel I’ve ever seen. Barr knew how to make a look or a grimace or a sneer and it was send the lucha crowds into a frenzy. He knew how to beg off a face’s comeback without overdoing it. And at the time Eddie and Art had also started wrestling in Japan and were not only the cocky gringos that slapped the Mexican people in the face…but they wrestled this beautifully advanced hybrid style of lucha and puroresu (Japanese wrestling) along with a hybrid style of Lucha and American heels that it brought something new to the table.


And that led to the extraordinary match of the Los Gringos Locos vs. El Hijo Del Santo and Octogon in a hair vs. mask match at When Worlds Collide pay per view.





***


Perhaps Eddie got the reputation of not being able to cut a promo and being ‘vanilla’ from his time in ECW. Ironically, his work in ECW is what got him to WCW.


Art Barr had passed in a tragic overdose. He and Eddie were scheduled to come over to ECW prior to his death and now Eddie was being sent alone. And instead of being the cocky heels with this new, incredible ‘lucharesu’ style of wrestling…Eddie was more of a quiet, but likeable babyface there to put on a show of top quality matches with Dean Malenko.





The idea to do this came from the famous Tiger Mask vs. Dynamite Kid feud. And this is part of what made ECW so great from 1994-1997…they had a lot of various different talent with different styles that could all work together and cut promos. So you could see a tag match with more technical wrestlers like Benoit and Malenko versus brawling types like The Public Enemy. Or you could see a traditional technical style of wrestler like Shane Douglas versus a shooter type like Taz. Or a wild brawler like The Sandman versus a high flying brawler like Sabu.


As great as the Malenko vs. Guerrero matches were (and their final ECW match was on my birthday, 8/27/1995…and it’s my favorite match of all time)…ECW missed out by not allowing Guerrero into the fold of wrestling other wrestlers and cutting promos on the mic.


Eventually, Guerrero left for greener pastures. Although people forget that there was a deal struck with WCW and New Japan at the time and New Japan wrestlers could not work for any other promotion than WCW. So even if they wanted to work for ECW and New Japan, they couldn’t. And so Dean and Eddie (and Sabu) were off to Atlanta.



***


WCW is where Eddie’s drug issues started to take hold, but it was also where he started to really hit his stride as an in-ring talent. He could work the babyface role, but outside of Hogan’s heel turn, nobody seemed to get that visceral hatred that Eddie could get.


And while there was talk of how great of a worker that Malenko was, you started to see that Malenko really lost his luster in the ring when working with wrestlers that were 230+ pounds. And it appeared a little more difficult for Malenko to keep up with the most modern of luchadores at the time in Rey Mysterio, Jr., Psicosis and Juventud Guerrera. Eddy, on the other hand, this was ‘old hat’ for him. And Eddie had the heel skills that he learned from Art Barr to get Mysterio over.


This led to one of my favorite matches ever…Eddie vs. Rey at Halloween Havoc.





At the time, I thought that this is what wrestling could become. This incredible athletic competition with a well defined heel vs. babyface without making the heel look clumsy and stupid and the moves being plausible and looking pretty non-participatory.


But, we don’t even really see this today with more athletic junior heavyweight wrestlers. There’s little in the way of heel vs. face and if there is, they just don’t pull it off as well. And there is a complete lack of selling, pacing and it’s overly choreographed.


As great as Rey Mysterio was in that match, I have to say that Eddie carried him in that match. Without Eddie, the heel heat isn’t there, the believability of the spots isn’t there and the ebb and flow of the match likely stinks.



***


I didn’t watch a lot of Eddie in the WWE. Although I made sure to watch his great ladder match versus Rob Van Dam.





I was happy for Eddie because he was finally being highlighted as a wrestler, again. It likely would have been impossible for Eddie to get over as a heel like he did as part of the Los Gringos Locos. But, I just didn’t love the babyface version of Eddie at the time. Looking back, the issue was more that there wasn’t a very good heel to face Eddie. I mean, when your best heel is likely JBL and only because he nailed Eddie with a vicious chair shot and it would be like JBL to hurt somebody for his own benefit…it’s not like the run of heels that Hogan had lined up for him in the 80’s.


But, it was good to see that the WWE realized that Eddie was a draw. And according to Bruce Prichard the only problem was that the more Mexican crowds that would come to see Eddie would only get tickets the day of the event and that’s a problem for promoters who generally want a good advance.


And that was kind of Eddie’s career. He was a better in-ring worker than Tully Blanchard. Blanchard was a better pure heel and a little better talker. But, Blanchard was used to his full potential and while ECW and WWE didn’t do him badly as WCW did, he was still never used to the potential that he was used in AAA. Blanchard OTOH was used to about his full capability.






YR
 

MichaelWinicki

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An interesting match between Andre The Giant and Harley Race for the NWA Heavyweight Championship in Houston on January 7th, 1979.



A couple thoughts...

Outside of the WWWF (it was still the WWWF at that point), Andre was allowed to wrestle a standard match– And not your typical gimmick match Vince or his father would stick him in. Heck this match lasted 28 minutes. I don't think Andre ever had a 28 minute match in the WWWF/WWF.

I give Harley credit, he tried wrestling Andre like he would any other opponent– even though Andre's size went on forever. One of the reasons Harley was such a great wrestler.

Harley successfully body-slams Andre outside the ring at about the 15 minute mark.

Two out of three fall match. Love those. I think when the two out of three fall match went away (which was a staple in the NWA for decades) then that helping usher in the "Hey, we'll have winners & losers but no one will be pinned cleanly or submit". With two out of three fall matches, invariably one guy would lose a fall due to a pin or submission so there wasn't the stigma in losing a fall cleanly.

I miss this type of wrestling.
 

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The "30 on 30?"

Bits & pieces but not the whole thing in entirety.

Interesting. But not shocking or surprising.

Yeah, I thought it was pretty well done.

One thing I love about Flair is that he's a great storyteller, and he has a million of em, whether he's telling the, or someone's telling them about him.

One things for sure, the man has lived a hard life - self inflicted - and nobody could have survived it except him.

If you've never listened to his short-lived podcast or any of his appearances elsewhere, you really should. His life is crazy!
 

Yakuza Rich

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I watched it. It was pretty good. It missed out on the politics that Flair and Hogan had going back and forth on each other when Hogan came to WCW. I was actually surprised how much Hogan put Flair over. Hogan was best friends with Brutus Beefcake and I remember Beefcake in a shoot interview saying that he didn't see what was so great about the Horsemen. As Jim Cornette said...the NWA was like the Boston Celtics and the WWF was like the Harlem Globetrotters and both had very different styles and guys like Hogan didn't think that highly of the NWA style.

They also never went into the issues with other wrestlers that Flair had (i.e. Scott Steiner, Undertaker, Vader, Austin, etc). And it never went into the issues he had with Eric Bischoff.

In that sense, it came off a bit like a WWE documentary down to the wrestlers being interviewed called by their wrestling name instead of their real name. But it was very WWE-ish in that it picked and chose what negatives they wanted to air about Flair.

But the fact is that I think it's really optimistic to think that the end of the story of a Flair 'growing up' and being more content with life and being more mature. If he lives long enough, he's more likely to end up getting divorced, getting in trouble with the law and having lawsuits thrown against him.





YR
 

Stash

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I watched it. It was pretty good. It missed out on the politics that Flair and Hogan had going back and forth on each other when Hogan came to WCW. I was actually surprised how much Hogan put Flair over. Hogan was best friends with Brutus Beefcake and I remember Beefcake in a shoot interview saying that he didn't see what was so great about the Horsemen. As Jim Cornette said...the NWA was like the Boston Celtics and the WWF was like the Harlem Globetrotters and both had very different styles and guys like Hogan didn't think that highly of the NWA style.

They also never went into the issues with other wrestlers that Flair had (i.e. Scott Steiner, Undertaker, Vader, Austin, etc). And it never went into the issues he had with Eric Bischoff.

In that sense, it came off a bit like a WWE documentary down to the wrestlers being interviewed called by their wrestling name instead of their real name. But it was very WWE-ish in that it picked and chose what negatives they wanted to air about Flair.

But the fact is that I think it's really optimistic to think that the end of the story of a Flair 'growing up' and being more content with life and being more mature. If he lives long enough, he's more likely to end up getting divorced, getting in trouble with the law and having lawsuits thrown against him.





YR

I was surprised by Hogan's effusive praise. Made me wonder if it was part of some effort to get back into WWE's good graces before it's too late. But, like Hogan pretty much said, Flair could carry anyone to a great match, Hogan needed to BE carried.

I couldn't care less what Brutus Beefcake has to say about anything or anyone in wrestling. The very definition of a parasite.

But it was and still is one of the greatest missed opportunities in wrestling that Hogan and Flair matching up never happened on a big stage when either was close to their prime. Criminal.

Nearly as bad as how the WCW acquisition was squandered, never to see the likes of something like that again.
 

MichaelWinicki

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I watched it. It was pretty good. It missed out on the politics that Flair and Hogan had going back and forth on each other when Hogan came to WCW. I was actually surprised how much Hogan put Flair over. Hogan was best friends with Brutus Beefcake and I remember Beefcake in a shoot interview saying that he didn't see what was so great about the Horsemen. As Jim Cornette said...the NWA was like the Boston Celtics and the WWF was like the Harlem Globetrotters and both had very different styles and guys like Hogan didn't think that highly of the NWA style.

They also never went into the issues with other wrestlers that Flair had (i.e. Scott Steiner, Undertaker, Vader, Austin, etc). And it never went into the issues he had with Eric Bischoff.

In that sense, it came off a bit like a WWE documentary down to the wrestlers being interviewed called by their wrestling name instead of their real name. But it was very WWE-ish in that it picked and chose what negatives they wanted to air about Flair.

But the fact is that I think it's really optimistic to think that the end of the story of a Flair 'growing up' and being more content with life and being more mature. If he lives long enough, he's more likely to end up getting divorced, getting in trouble with the law and having lawsuits thrown against him.





YR

Yeah, Hogan saying that Flair was better was an eye-opener for me. Of course it is true, but I never expected Hogan to admit it.
 

MichaelWinicki

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I was surprised by Hogan's effusive praise. Made me wonder if it was part of some effort to get back into WWE's good graces before it's too late. But, like Hogan pretty much said, Flair could carry anyone to a great match, Hogan needed to BE carried.

I couldn't care less what Brutus Beefcake has to say about anything or anyone in wrestling. The very definition of a parasite.

But it was and still is one of the greatest missed opportunities in wrestling that Hogan and Flair matching up never happened on a big stage when either was close to their prime. Criminal.

Nearly as bad as how the WCW acquisition was squandered, never to see the likes of something like that again.

Yeah, seeing Hogan and Flair match up in say '84 would have been terrific!

I'm disappointed that we never got to see a Brody-Hogan match either.
 

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Yeah, seeing Hogan and Flair match up in say '84 would have been terrific!

I'm disappointed that we never got to see a Brody-Hogan match either.

Even in 1991 when Flair first came to WWF it would have been great, but it never happened. The opportunity was wasted and by the time it did in WCW, both guys were well past their primes and the chance for a huge spectacle was long gone.
 

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For me, pro wrestling booking didn’t get any better than Dusty Rhodes booking the Crockett promotions from around 1984 to 1987. Dusty was creating truly episodic television and had the talent to support his vision. And it was the one chance for a territory to beat out Vince McMahon out of all of the promotions.

One of the old and time tested booking techniques is the Four Cornerstones of the promotion. Essentially, the idea is to promote 4 individual wrestlers (usually 2 heels and 2 babyfaces) and to put them over against everybody. The only time they ever lose is to one another, but the idea is to try and separate the four wrestlers as much as possible and save their feuds for the big event of the year. In the Crockett Promotion’s case, Starcade.

Dusty used the Four Cornerstones method with himself, Magnum TA, Ric Flair and Nikita Koloff. Not only did Dusty create a beautiful script to make this work, but he ended up adjusting beautifully to make the booking of these four wrestlers something that is remembered 30 years later.

I always felt that Dusty’s greatest attribute was that he was excellent at booking babyfaces. The babyfaces were not only likeable, but they were cool. That’s incredibly difficult to do as babyfaces generally tend to get over early and then quickly start to become stale and in particular, corny. This is something that Paul Heyman excelled at in ECW as well and Paul learned this from Dusty.

Dusty had his own personality that made fans love him. It was a very ‘ethnic’ type of promo combined with a very ‘John Wayne’ type of persona.



Thus, Dusty was mega-over with both the black and white fans of the south. Of course, he ended up abusing this towards the end of his booking reign, but he was still mega-over and 95% of the fans absolutely adored him.

His protégé was Magnum TA. Terry Allen got the name because he looked like a blonde version of Magnum PI. He didn’t have that ‘son of a plumber’ gimmick that Dusty had, but he had that persona of a ‘good guy’ that was ‘his own man’ and was the t-shirt and jeans wearing type.



Magnum also had the unenviable task of having to wrestle Nikita in a best of seven series that Magnum pulled off brilliantly.

Nikita Koloff’s real name is Scott Simpson. Dusty did a smart job of making Nikita the ‘nephew’ of Ivan Koloff, a former big time main eventer and well respected veteran that could work in the ring and cut promos. Nikita was notoriously a poor worker in the ring, but the fans saw him as this legit great and brutal athlete as he looked the part and threw a great lariat (aka the Russian Sickle).



Regardless of Nikita’s actual skill in the ring, sometimes you need a guy like him because he is so over and so different in terms of style and persona that it adds a little something extra to the promotion. As great as Flair was, he never had that intimidation factor that Nikita had.

And of course, there was Flair. Flair was needed because he could be the heel to all of the three other wrestlers.



Eventually, when the Flair vs. Dusty, Flair vs. Magnum and Nikita vs. Magnum wore out, they smartly switched to Flair vs. Nikita with Flair being the babyface.

 

Yakuza Rich

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Most bookers, if they were lucky to get to this point, would have focused to a Nikita vs. Dusty feud. But, good bookers try to think one step ahead of the fans while having continuity and that is what Dusty did here.

Of course, this didn’t lead to Flair being the face for long as after he faced Nikita in a cage and beat Nikita…Nikita kept attacking him and when Dusty came to the rescue the massive hatred Flair had for Dusty led to Flair turning heel again and attacking Dusty as he tried to help him.



Unfortunately, Magnum had a career ending injury from a car crash. But once again, Dusty came thru with a great idea…turning Nikita face as he honored his long-time foe that he had begun to admire.



But what’s important is how they built this up. As a fan, it was a STUNNING revelation that Nikita was turning face. It was STUNNING that after all of this time with him being so brutal and so callous that he now turns out to care and be somber for…of all people…Magnum TA.

And as a fan you didn’t quite trust Nikita. This could all possibly be a rouse in the end. And as Nikita follows Dusty into the cage, you’re still not quite sure and when Nikita hesitates for that second you think the gig is up and he’s going to join the Horsemen and attack Dusty.

Instead, he attacks the Horsemen with the brutality we had seen from him. And despite the ‘good guys’ having taken such a blow from Magnum’s impending retirement…they were now stronger than ever with Dusty and Nikita on the same side.

What a masterpiece of pro wrestling booking.




YR
 

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YR and Winicki, I'm so impressed with your knowledge of pro wrestling. Unfortunately I was too young to follow it in the early 80s. I do remember my dad introducing me to the Von Erich's back in the day so I did recognize them on tv and such.

My favorite era was the mid to late 90s and especially Monday night with both Raw and Nitro squaring off. I remember always enjoying switching back and forth between USA and TNT to catch what Vince and Bischoff would do to upstage each other.

Both rosters were loaded as you know. Jercho, DX, NWO, Sting, Goldberg, Undertaker...the list goes on and on.

I know I'll probably get eye-rolled, but The Rock and Stone Cold were the best and carried wrestling for a decade through the Attitude Era.

Speaking of heels, how entertaining was The Rock? He was at his best as a heel. Totally hilarious. Loved every minute of it. Loved how he sold the Stunner. Loved how he played to the crowd. I know his in-ring technique and performance left much to be desired, but he was unparalleled in promos and on the mic.
 
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