Zim has to go

[Bob Sacamano]

As for the relative lack of a pass rush, I'll say again that stems from the number of 3 step drops opponents are using against us... it's hard for ANY team to sack the quarterback too often when the opponents don't drop back deep in the pocket too often; those 3 step drops are designed to get the ball out in about 2 seconds, much too quickly to hope that the rush can get there...

and when they use max-protect which Houston, for one, used against us

 

[Bob Sacamano]

but even when teams use deep drops we get nowhere near the QB

David

and there's times where we do

and don't forget about teams such as Houston max-protecting

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Yeah the Ravens gave up big plays to Colsten all day, but they were playing prevent by the end of the game because they had already picked off the Saints repeatedly and given their team a multi-TD lead!

so after that 1st TD, the Ravens continued to play prevent? please don't tell me that's what you're saying

but if you are, you still choose them? hell, that's how we lost that Monday nighter against the skins last year, and where everyone blamed Zimmer

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Same thing, except our defense played well enough against Philly, actually scoring a touchdown, until it gave up three touchdowns mostly on big plays.

so how do you fault Zimmer for WAtkins for screwing up his coverage?

 

[Bob Sacamano]

None of our guys except Roy have been to Hawaii-- granted the DL will have a hard time getting accolades, but what's the excuse of the linebacking corps? This team is too up and down to win respect. I love 'em, but they're not ready yet.

so you concede that it's more than just game-planning that's the problem then?

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Realizing of course that your defense of defenses you'd like emulated is full of apologies and excuses.

It's unreal how the GROZ people can just put their hands over their ears and shout "I can't hear you." Facts, non-facts, all presented. All dismissed with excuses and the same tired lines that can never be backed up by anything save opinion. It's pointless.

you don't see! you don't see!

 

[ravidubey]

so after that 1st TD, the Ravens continued to play prevent? please don't tell me that's what you're saying

but if you are, you still choose them? hell, that's how we lost that Monday nighter against the skins last year, and where everyone blamed Zimmer

Defenses relax when teams are up by multiple touchdowns. New Orleans kept throwing but they never got back into it. This is the essence of what we're talking about.

Stats racked up by an offense in garbage time represent a "defensive collapse" to some but in reality mean nothing.

It's garbage time in the first place for a reason, and that reason without question was the Baltimore defense who created turnovers and scored to put Baltimore ahead for good.

 

[ravidubey]

With very few exceptions, EVERY defense "lacks something." Our defense lacks a lot less than most defenses, and part of what it lacks isn't as relevent as what it doesn't lack.

OK... prizes to whoever followed that last sentence. Our defense should be better and certainly more aggressive considering the talent of the players assembled and the strength of our offense.

GROZ says great defenses step up in that situation, not fold like a house of cards in a windstorm.

A house of cards protects a lead by allowing three huge touchdowns against a division rival. Baltimore's D would never do that. With Terence
Newman out, this defense wouldn't know what to do.

GROZ says they should have been even more pumped-up and played better because of that.

Why? Beyond the three that left that team why would the Ravens be more pumped up?

GROZ says that's irrelevant. Great defenses step up when put in bad situations and keep the offense from scoring.

They did by kept the Titans from scoring in the second half and won the game as a result. If the "collapse" you refer to was allowing a bunch of yards, then it's ridiculous. The scoreboard never reflects yardage gained. How's that for a fact?

Not because of the defense. They got bailed out by their offense and special teams. The defense was lousy against a terrible team. GROZ says a great defense should have won that game by three touchdowns, not by the skin of their teeth. GROZ says a good team would have blown them out that day.

Apologists use hyperbole to the extreme to defend statistics that mean nothing. On the corner blitz vs Philly... why did McNabb anticipate the exact play? How did the linebacker miss a clean shot on McNabb? Why did the FS bite on the double move? Why did the FS not tackle and try to punch the ball loose? This defense has been playing without discipline. For every great play there's a bonehead play to match. That's a defense that plays like it doesn't know what to expect, unlike Donovan McNabb.

No, I've seen plenty, and I have several (if not all) of those games on tape. Care to see highlights of their total collapses against Denver and Cincinnati?

Total collapses that resulted in 13 points allowed despite three bad turnovers and 14 points allows vs Cleveland (whom I'll assume you meant despite the fact Baltimore has not played Cincy this year and that you've diligently studied all the tapes of Baltimore's games)?

Baltimore sacked Frye 7 times and McAlister had a game-saving pick because of another near sack. Yeah, those were total collapses; I wish our defense totally collapsed like that

 

[superpunk]

It's obvious that GROZ wants a flawless defense, one that doesn't exist. Zimmer is a convenient scapegoat for any failings on the part of the players. In the second year of the 3-4, we have a dominant run defense and a very good pass defense that has given up the big play now and again, mostly due to our 5th round FS with gobs of potential. We get our sacks against teams in the top half of the league in giving up sacks, while the defenses GROZ slobbers over fattens up on the weaklings. The defense is full of young talent, that is only getting better.

Shockingly, I'm ok with all that.

 

[Idgit]

OK... prizes to whoever followed that last sentence. Our defense should be better and certainly more aggressive considering the talent of the players assembled and the strength of our offense.


A house of cards protects a lead by allowing three huge touchdowns against a division rival. Baltimore's D would never do that. With Terence
Newman out, this defense wouldn't know what to do.


Why? Beyond the three that left that team why would the Ravens be more pumped up?


They did by kept the Titans from scoring in the second half and won the game as a result. If the "collapse" you refer to was allowing a bunch of yards, then it's ridiculous. The scoreboard never reflects yardage gained. How's that for a fact?


Apologists use hyperbole to the extreme to defend statistics that mean nothing. On the corner blitz vs Philly... why did McNabb anticipate the exact play? How did the linebacker miss a clean shot on McNabb? Why did the FS bite on the double move? Why did the FS not tackle and try to punch the ball loose? This defense has been playing without discipline. For every great play there's a bonehead play to match. That's a defense that plays like it doesn't know what to expect, unlike Donovan McNabb.


Total collapses that resulted in 13 points allowed despite three bad turnovers and 14 points allows vs Cleveland (whom I'll assume you meant despite the fact Baltimore has not played Cincy this year and that you've diligently studied all the tapes of Baltimore's games)?

Baltimore sacked Frye 7 times and McAlister had a game-saving pick because of another near sack. Yeah, those were total collapses; I wish our defense totally collapsed like that

Guys: please stop. This thread is like watching people beat a neurotic dog *while* it's chasing its tail. The dog isn't going to ever catch the tail. Apart from reflexive yelps and some short-term perverse satisfaction, beating the dog some more isn't accomplishing anything. Meanwhile, it keeps posts like 'Zim must go' on the front page.

GROZ lives, but that doesn't mean it's ever going to make any sense.

 

[ravidubey]

The defense is full of young talent, that is only getting better.

On this I'll agree.

 

[AdamJT13]

OK... prizes to whoever followed that last sentence. Our defense should be better and certainly more aggressive considering the talent of the players assembled and the strength of our offense.

Why "should" it be more aggressive? Would more aggression guarantee better results?

Baltimore's D would never do that.

It did last year.

With Terence
Newman out, this defense wouldn't know what to do.

Hooray for speculative hyperbole!

Why? Beyond the three that left that team why would the Ravens be more pumped up?

You claimed it was an emotional game for the Titans. GROZ says a great defense matches its opponents' intensity and plays better in those situations.

They did by kept the Titans from scoring in the second half and won the game as a result. If the "collapse" you refer to was allowing a bunch of yards, then it's ridiculous. The scoreboard never reflects yardage gained. How's that for a fact?

What are you talking about? They collapsed against Denver and Carolina, not Tennessee. They just played lousy against Tennessee and got bailed out at the end.

Total collapses that resulted in 13 points allowed despite three bad turnovers and 14 points allows vs Cleveland (whom I'll assume you meant

Actually, I meant Carolina -- when they allowed the Panthers to score 10 points in the final eight minutes to win the game, letting them drive 91 yards for a field goal, then letting Steve Smith burn them for a 72-yard touchdown ONE PLAY after their offense scored a touchdown to pull within two points.

despite the fact Baltimore has not played Cincy this year and that you've diligently studied all the tapes of Baltimore's games)?

Are you actually claiming that Baltimore hasn't played Cincinnati this year? You might want to do a little research, since that game was the best the Ravens defense has played since their collapse against Denver.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/gamebook/NFL_20061105_CIN@BAL

Baltimore sacked Frye 7 times

Who cares about their game against Cleveland two months ago?

I wish our defense totally collapsed like that

You wish our defense gave up 10 points to lose the game in the fourth quarter in two straight weeks?

 

[khiladi]

I could care less about the Raven's defense... So what if the Raven's are sh*tty or great... It's not reflective of what the Dallas defense can do..

Why "should" it be more aggressive? Would more aggression guarantee better results?

Give a lot less time for the quarterback to throw the ball? You wanna play cover 2 all day, against a team whose deep threat was not even playing in the game, with a quarterback whose arm strength is questionable? You want to let him work the intermediate routes all day with the tight end?

Look at the time of possession:

Dallas 31:28
Washington 28:32

This was with the Commanders, with NO Santana Moss... The next week, the Eagles SMASHED the Commanders, holding them to just 3 points... and Philly has some weak corners.. Brunell had 132 yards passing against them, and 192 yards against us, not including the pass interference by our secondary... that would make it +250 for Brunell... and I repeat, without Santana Moss and a weal arm...

Play a cover 2 on Peyton, and see what will happen..

Apologists use hyperbole to the extreme to defend statistics that mean nothing. On the corner blitz vs Philly... why did McNabb anticipate the exact play? How did the linebacker miss a clean shot on McNabb? Why did the FS bite on the double move? Why did the FS not tackle and try to punch the ball loose? This defense has been playing without discipline. For every great play there's a bonehead play to match. That's a defense that plays like it doesn't know what to expect, unlike Donovan McNabb.

It's surprising that this point goes unanswered.. People argue that it was all the fault of Watkins, but that is a match-up the Eagles wanted and were going to exploit. A QB wants one on one coverage on a blitz, especially when the defense he is playing against shows they can't get to the quarterback...

The match up the Commanders got on the touchdown run to Portis was a clear example of the Commanders knowing what Dallas would do that play... All Portis had was ONE MAN to beat...

Everybody knows when our blitz is coming, and from where...

That's why we play cover 2 against a team like the Commanders...

the NFL does not award the yardage gained from a pass interference penalty to the individual statistics of a quarterback and his wide receiver

Meaning our statistics are OVER-INFLATED...

 

[AdamJT13]

the NFL does not award the yardage gained from a pass interference penalty to the individual statistics of a quarterback and his wide receiver
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Meaning our statistics are OVER-INFLATED...

Everyone's statistics are affected, not just ours. Our defense has committed six pass interference penalties for 146 yards. Our opponents' defenses have committed six for 144 (plus two more penalties that we declined). The vaunted "veteran, highly intelligent and eminently infallible" Ravens defense has committed six for 82 (plus another that was declined on a 39-yard completion).

Even if you added everyone's PI yardage to their stats, we'd still have one of the top-ranked defenses.