Zim has to go

[LD Fan]

I think I clearly stated exactly what you just phrased in a paragraph in one sentence. They have been good minus a few big plays. You can fault them for probably 1 or 2 games, at the most. Otherwise it's been other factors.

I don't think we disagree. What you describe here is a decent defense, just what I called them. Very good or great defenses can't be faulted for 1 or 2 games out of 9.

 

[ravidubey]

Yeah, GROZ would be really happy with that kind of performance from our defense.

You keep going back to stats, but they just do not mean much. Would you judge the Giants defense by the 220+ yards Romo lit them up for in the second half of that loss? Yeah the Ravens gave up big plays to Colsten all day, but they were playing prevent by the end of the game because they had already picked off the Saints repeatedly and given their team a multi-TD lead!

On the flip side, Baltimore's offense is limited, while ours is playing well and scoring points. Statistically they rank 21st, to put it into perspective. Nonetheless the Ravens have only lost twice, on the road in Denver when their offense threw three picks and against Carolina. They still held Denver to 13 points. They forced a fumble and picked a pass and held Denver to 9 yards in the first quarter. But McNair threw those three picks at the worst times and it killed the Ravens. Steve Smith is the best receiver in the league and yes he beat the Ravens defense; the Ravens offense lost their QB and had three turnovers-- Baltimore lost by two points.

Right now our defense can't pressure passers when we need it to, we consistently give up plays in huge chunks, big receivers hurt us, and we have more penalty yards than we can recover from (150 more than Baltimore's defense).

Ask yourself, why is it that when we blitz, our defenders-- to a man-- simply hit the enemy line and bounce off? Is it a lack of talent?

Why do other teams make big plays off of stunts, twists, overloading weaknesses, and even an occasional zone blitz while ours stays so predictable?

Why don't we move DeMarcus Ware around a bit? We did with success vs. Washington but never seem to try it again?

Mike Zimmer's been given the best canvas, paints, and a fabulous view to paint and what we are getting is a generic bowl of fruit. Dallas deserves better, but it's not going to happen.

 

[joseephuss]

You keep going back to stats, but they just do not mean much. Would you judge the Giants defense by the 220+ yards Romo lit them up for in the second half of that loss? Yeah the Ravens gave up big plays to Colsten all day, but they were playing prevent by the end of the game because they had already picked off the Saints repeatedly and given their team a multi-TD lead!

On the flip side, Baltimore's offense is limited, while ours is playing well and scoring points. Statistically they rank 21st, to put it into perspective. Nonetheless the Ravens have only lost twice, on the road in Denver when their offense threw three picks and against Carolina. They still held Denver to 13 points. They forced a fumble and picked a pass and held Denver to 9 yards in the first quarter. But McNair threw those three picks at the worst times and it killed the Ravens. Steve Smith is the best receiver in the league and yes he beat the Ravens defense; the Ravens offense lost their QB and had three turnovers-- Baltimore lost by two points.

Right now our defense can't pressure passers when we need it to, we consistently give up plays in huge chunks, big receivers hurt us, and we have more penalty yards than we can recover from (150 more than Baltimore's defense).

Ask yourself, why is it that when we blitz, our defenders-- to a man-- simply hit the enemy line and bounce off? Is it a lack of talent?

Why do other teams make big plays off of stunts, twists, overloading weaknesses, and even an occasional zone blitz while ours stays so predictable?

Why don't we move DeMarcus Ware around a bit? We did with success vs. Washington but never seem to try it again?

Mike Zimmer's been given the best canvas, paints, and a fabulous view to paint and what we are getting is a generic bowl of fruit. Dallas deserves better, but it's not going to happen.

Ware moves around in every game. It is funny because I have seen some posters say that he is moved around too much and should just play on the right side. Some complain that there are no exotic blitz schemes and then complain when Dallas runs a corner blitz. By they way, that corner blitz by Henry did work in that it opened up a lane for Ellis. Gregg failed to do his job of sacking McNabb, but he did force him to move around, then Watkins failed to do his job. Scheme was right, but execution was not.

Dallas has a better offense than the Ravens, but when Dallas faced the Eagles and Giants, the offense was terrible. It gave up points and put the defense in bad positions.

 

[AdamJT13]

You keep going back to stats, but they just do not mean much.

I wasn't going back to stats -- I was using the same argument that GROZ uses against our defense.

Is it stats when Baltimore's defense collapses in the fourth quarter against Denver and loses the game by letting the Broncos march down the field twice?

Is it stats when Baltimore's defense lets Carolina march 91 yards for a field goal in the fourth quarter, then lets Steve Smith scorch them for a 72-yard touchdown (basically to win the game) in the fourth quarter with the game on the line?

Is it stats when Baltimore's defense plays lousy against a terrible Titans team and lets them easily drive right down the field in the final two minutes for the winning field goal -- only to have the special teams bail them out by blocking the field goal?

Is it stats when Baltimore's defense can't get any consistent pressure in criticial situations over the past five games?

 

[ravidubey]

Dallas has a better offense than the Ravens, but when Dallas faced the Eagles and Giants, the offense was terrible. It gave up points and put the defense in bad positions.

Correct. Adam was saying the Baltimore defense was blowing games but their offense had 3 turnovers in each of their two losses.

Same thing, except our defense played well enough against Philly, actually scoring a touchdown, until it gave up three touchdowns mostly on big plays.

Our offense had no turnovers in Washington, in fact we gained a turnover on a blown snap. But our defense blew play after play allowing Washington to hang around. I watched Roy Williams sitting back in deep left field all game long for no reason at all. Why play two deep zone against a limited QB with an average receiving corps?

That game was a microcosm of this Dallas defense's season thus far. bad penalties, blown assignments, a lack of aggressiveness, and no pass rush to speak of. I was there in person to witness the debacle-- we played like losers.

 

[khiladi]

As I stated before, if it weren't for two key drops, one by Keyshawn and the other by Steve Smith on a wide-open slant, Carolina would have had another 100 yards against easily, if not blown us out. We were lucky. Our sacks also were in garbage time.

We have played teams that put up a lot of numbers, such as Philadelphia, and done better than their opponents at holding them, but their opponents have been sh*tty defensively. The only real defense the Eagles played against was the Giants, and that was EARLY in the season when the Giants D was playing p*ss poor... Even the Giants offense hasnt faced any big contenders, with the exception of Chicago, and look what happened the second half.

Our numbers are better than the other teams playing 'top' offenses, but that isn't saying much considering the defenses we are being compared to.

Our offense had no turnovers in Washington, in fact we gained a turnover on a blown snap. But our defense blew play after play allowing Washington to hang around. I watched Roy Williams sitting back in deep left field all game long for no reason at all. Why play two deep zone against a limited QB with an average receiving corps?

Hell yeah... and expose the middle despite the average receiving corps with a weak-armed Brunell I might add, allowing Cooley to kill us for big yards on intermediate routes... that is coaching...

 

[ravidubey]

I wasn't going back to stats -- I was using the same argument that GROZ uses against our defense.

Is it stats when Baltimore's defense collapses in the fourth quarter against Denver and loses the game by letting the Broncos march down the field twice?

They finally got tired. McNair threw three interceptions. The defense forced two early turnovers the offense failed to capitalize on, this after having held Denver to 9 first quarter yards.

Is it stats when Baltimore's defense lets Carolina march 91 yards for a field goal in the fourth quarter, then lets Steve Smith scorch them for a 72-yard touchdown (basically to win the game) in the fourth quarter with the game on the line?

They lost and it happens, but rarely to them in that situation. They have a track record of success; we have a history of giving up big plays. Again, their offense gave up three turnovers.

Is it stats when Baltimore's defense plays lousy against a terrible Titans team and lets them easily drive right down the field in the final two minutes for the winning field goal -- only to have the special teams bail them out by blocking the field goal?

Good teams find ways to win and have leaders, Baltimore's leaders are on defense. I will say Baltimore's style plays a bit into Tennessee's hands. In fact, the Titans might be one team we've played that Zim's style is ideally suited to defend. Hang back in coverage and let the young QB making his first start make mistakes.

Is it stats when Baltimore's defense can't get any consistent pressure in criticial situations over the past five games?

They are 3-2 in those games and have excellent players who over the long haul have proven they will make plays. McAlister has 4 interceptions including a pick-6 and he's recovered two fumbles. Ray Lewis is still a great player. Samari Rolle does his job well, Terrell Suggs is solid. These guys have done it over and over and have deservedly been to pro bowls.

None of our guys except Roy have been to Hawaii-- granted the DL will have a hard time getting accolades, but what's the excuse of the linebacking corps? This team is too up and down to win respect. I love 'em, but they're not ready yet.

 

[khiladi]

They finally got tired. McNair threw three interceptions. The defense forced two early turnovers the offense failed to capitalize on, this after having held Denver to 9 first quarter yards.

We also let Jackonsville's QB march down the field on us to score in the fourth quarter, ultimately costing us the game... Cooley's TD was another example of allowing a big score at a crucial time...

I asked before if yards given up as a result of penalties are included in the stats? If not, than the Commanders offensive numbers are definitely not reflective of the Dallas defense 'holding them'..

 

[Chocolate Lab]

But.....but.....Ray Lewis dances....

And we don't have that kewl "Wut Time Is It!!?!!!" pregame routine...

I heard Zimmer banned it.

 

[AdamJT13]

As I stated before, if it weren't for two key drops, one by Keyshawn and the other by Steve Smith on a wide-open slant, Carolina would have had another 100 yards against easily, if not blown us out.

You need to watch that slant again. Newman could have tackled Smith from behind, and there were two players directly in front of Smith who could have made the tackle within a few yards.

Anyhow, players drop passes every game against every team. If nobody dropped passes, 400 yards of offense and 30 points would be mediocre.

 

[AdamJT13]

They finally got tired.

So you want us to emulate a defense that fades in the fourth quarter? GROZ wouldn't like that.

Again, their offense gave up three turnovers.

GROZ says great defenses step up when put in bad situations, not collapse, get burned and lose the game.

They are 3-2 in those games

Only because their special teams bailed them out against a terrible Tennessee team after they let the Titans drive right down the field. GROZ says a great defense shouldn't get shredded by horrible teams -- especially with the game on the line in the fourth quarter.

and have excellent players who over the long haul have proven they will make plays.

So why have they been so lousy over the past five games? GROZ says a defense with that much talent should dominate offenses and get consistent pressure in clutch situations. They haven't. They've been shredded and collapsed in critical situations, even against bad teams.

GROR! GROR! GROR!

 

[khiladi]

You need to watch that slant again. Newman could have tackled Smith from behind, and there were two players directly in front of Smith who could have made the tackle within a few yards.

Anyhow, players drop passes every game against every team. If nobody dropped passes, 400 yards of offense and 30 points would be mediocre.

Steve Smith is pretty hard to catch when the ball hits him on the chest in full stride... But your right, that is subject to dispute..

I don't think players drop passes when they are that wide-open that often... Throw Keyshawn or Steve Smith the ball like that, AT LEAST 8 out of 10 times they would catch it... I think your over-exxagerating with those numbers above.. We were lucky..

We also got away with a couple of plays against the Commanders.. Newman clearly held his man in the end-zone...

PI against Henry and PI against Roy... I think a lot of this has to do with the fact we can't generate any signficant pass rush.... it's made the Cowboys D more focused on protecting against bungling a long ball than just playing out right nasty... and what do we do anyways? we end up bungling the play... to me, that is a sign of over-thinking...

I'm not knocking the Dallas defense. I justour statistics tend to over-inflate how good we actually are. Our defense, statistic wise, is a little better against teams than other defenses, but these other defenses aren't that great. We are, in my opinion, above average... We should be DOMINANT...

I think ravidbubey sums it up when he says:

That game was a microcosm of this Dallas defense's season thus far. bad penalties, blown assignments, a lack of aggressiveness, and no pass rush to speak of. I was there in person to witness the debacle-- we played like losers.

We were playing the Commanders... We should have ATTACKED Brunell constantly, but we played Cover 2 against average wide-receivers... for what? Santan Moss wasn't even playing...

I think this is reflective of Bill Parcells... it's the play-it-safe mentality... we give up a couple big plays, and we go into a state of paranoia and run a cover-2 to protect against the bomb... knocking the quarterback down is what gets into his head... opposing quarterbacks, when the game is close, tend to produce against the Cowboys, because of all the time they get... Byron Leftwich 4th quarter drive is the epitome of this...

 

[ravidubey]

So you want us to emulate a defense that fades in the fourth quarter? GROZ wouldn't like that. GROZ says great defenses step up when put in bad situations, not collapse, get burned and lose the game.

You're being facetious because you don't believe or don't want to believe the Cowboys defense lacks something when it's clear they do. You can belittle GROZ all you want, but it's a fact Zimmer is still learning the 3-4 and if he's learning then how can he credibility teach? The man can't disguise a coverage or fashion an effective blitz to save his life. Can you name when he has demonstrated this capability and dispel this supposedly false notion?

Only because their special teams bailed them out against a terrible Tennessee team after they let the Titans drive right down the field. GROZ says a great defense shouldn't get shredded by horrible teams -- especially with the game on the line in the fourth quarter.

Incidentally, Trevor Pryce, a defensive starter, blocked that field goal. What I wouldn't give to have a guy like Leon Lett again. But since yuo keep harping on this one game, realize that:

1) Ray Lewis was out
2) It was an emotional game with three ex-Titans (McNair, Rolle, and Mason) returning to Tennessee.
3) Steve McNair threw two interceptions and took a safety by backing out of the endzone. The picks, safety, and the field position from the free kick led directly to 16 Titan points.
4) They still won.

So why have they been so lousy over the past five games?

Only you are saying they have been lousy and I'm guessing you haven't been actually watching them. They are tough, physical, emotional, and experienced. They have leadership our defense simply lacks and players willing to step up (Pryce) when key players (Lewis) are out with injuries.

GROR! GROR! GROR!

How about GROSBZAT? Get Rid of Stats-Based Zimmer Apology Threads!

 

[superpunk]

How about GROSBZAT? Get Rid of Stats-Based Zimmer Apology Threads!

Realizing of course that your defense of defenses you'd like emulated is full of apologies and excuses.

It's unreal how the GROZ people can just put their hands over their ears and shout "I can't hear you." Facts, non-facts, all presented. All dismissed with excuses and the same tired lines that can never be backed up by anything save opinion. It's pointless.

 

[dbair1967]

Realizing of course that your defense of defenses you'd like emulated is full of apologies and excuses.

It's unreal how the GROZ people can just put their hands over their ears and shout "I can't hear you." Facts, non-facts, all presented. All dismissed with excuses and the same tired lines that can never be backed up by anything save opinion. It's pointless.

you Zimmer apologists (or is it blind loyalists?) do the exact same thing.

There's plenty of evidence to show that he hasnt done that good of a job, but many of you choose to ignore it or play the spin doctor games even when facts to show otherwise are brought up.

David

 

[superpunk]

you Zimmer apologists (or is it blind loyalists?) do the exact same thing.

There's plenty of evidence to show that he hasnt done that good of a job, but many of you choose to ignore it or play the spin doctor games even when facts to show otherwise are brought up.

David

Facts are not brought up. It's always "don't give me stats, you're using them t spin things. I know what I see."

And the defenders are the spin doctors. Right.

 

[bbgun]

Q In preparation for a game like the upcoming one against the Colts would Parcells and the other coaches look at film from last years Steelers-Colts playoff game and try to do similar things the Steeleres did? I mean the Steelers played a 3-4 and Manning didnt have time to breathe in that game. I would think it would take a similar scheme to win Sunday.
cowboydee, New York, NY 11/14/06

A The Cowboys are looking at the Steelers-Colts game and the Chargers-Colts game from last year. The difference is both of those teams have a host of pressure players to harass Manning. The Cowboys do not. And now they are without Greg Ellis.
Clarence E. Hill Jr. 11/14/06

Exactly. Why did they think the 3-4 would work with this group of players? Why are we wasting our time?

 

[ravidubey]

Facts are not brought up. It's always "don't give me stats, you're using them t spin things. I know what I see."

We bring up facts-- historical fact regarding coaching inadequacies time and again, but you choose to ignore them in favor of a bunch of numbers that mean nothing to anyone but diehard football fans eager to absorb any bit of information regarding their team!

Numbers prove nothing! The "number one defense" does not mean that team is going deep into the playoffs. It is just a title that comes from number crunching by usually differing sets of criteria.

This defense is good enough to win. No one is arguing that it is not!

The thing that irks is that the defense could be much, much better and never seems to play to its potential. It has been infused with talent from top to bottom, but we still see the same mistakes at weak points the coaches know to be weak points! There's no scheming to protect those weaknesses like we see on offense when a TE is brought in to chip a good DE.

Realizing of course that your defense of defenses you'd like emulated is full of apologies and excuses.

I wish we had some of those same excuses to cover our own breakdowns that lead to losses. We don't. Take that back, with our 2nd best defender (next to Newman) out now maybe we do.

Zimmer has a real chance to prove himself. Indy scored a mere 17 vs. Buffalo. What will they do against us?

 

[AdamJT13]

You're being facetious because you don't believe or don't want to believe the Cowboys defense lacks something when it's clear they do.

With very few exceptions, EVERY defense "lacks something." Our defense lacks a lot less than most defenses, and part of what it lacks isn't as relevent as what it doesn't lack.

Incidentally, Trevor Pryce, a defensive starter, blocked that field goal. What I wouldn't give to have a guy like Leon Lett again. But since yuo keep harping on this one game, realize that:

1) Ray Lewis was out

GROZ says great defenses step up in that situation, not fold like a house of cards in a windstorm.

2) It was an emotional game with three ex-Titans (McNair, Rolle, and Mason) returning to Tennessee.

GROZ says they should have been even more pumped-up and played better because of that.

3) Steve McNair threw two interceptions and took a safety by backing out of the endzone. The picks, safety, and the field position from the free kick led directly to 16 Titan points.

GROZ says that's irrelevant. Great defenses step up when put in bad situations and keep the offense from scoring.

4) They still won.

Not because of the defense. They got bailed out by their offense and special teams. The defense was lousy against a terrible team. GROZ says a great defense should have won that game by three touchdowns, not by the skin of their teeth. GROZ says a good team would have blown them out that day.

Only you are saying they have been lousy and I'm guessing you haven't been actually watching them.

No, I've seen plenty, and I have several (if not all) of those games on tape. Care to see highlights of their total collapses against Denver and Cincinnati?

 

[Bob Sacamano]

If you start edge rushing your DE's more, then you'll open up more gaps and have more trouble stopping the run.

Watch the Colts defense this sunday.

it's the 3-4, you can't edge rush your DEs or they lose containment and allow blockers to lock onto the LBs more than they already are