Zimmer Good or Bad, Stay or Go

[jksmith269]

I'm confused about something...... Cowboys Dad brought it up in the Tnew\Howard thread and I've seen it elsewhere on the board and in other boards.

After the 2003 season Zimmer interveiwed for many HC postions in the college ranks and when he decided to stay in Dallas all I remember is hearing how glad BP,JJ and Cowboys fans were that he was returning...... Of course we had the best D in the NFL just about the entire Season


This offseason it seems just about everyone wants him gone..... Is this seasons Defense Problems his fault?

My opinion is he didn't forget how to coach...... He just didn't have the people he was used to Loosing Woody drops your D 5 places by itself with no one to step in and take up the slack...... We had a Bust at DE....... one CB isn't enough to cover a pop warner team let alone an NFL squad..... Roy was caught out of position because he was trying to play almost 3 positions by him self FS, SS, CB......Now we think we've fixed the CB issue and added to the DL still need a DE and FS and to replace Coak...... But again its my opinion that with the right personel that we will have 1 of the top 5 Defensive teams again this season...... I don't blame Zimmer or the Players I blame the situation How many other teams would have fared as well? I could have seen us finishing dead last in every D catagory but we didn't not in the bottom 5 I say the Coaching had as much to do with that as the players....


So whats your take?

 

[Future]

Hes an idiot for not blitzing. A pass rush is better than any coverage can ever be.

Keep him if hes agressive.

 

[Muhast]

Doesnt matter if you have the best db's in the nfl Tom Brady will pick you to pieces EVERY time if you let him drop back and look. Same with Manning. Luckily we wouldnt be playing either often if ever. But the point is you can't let the nfl's best look, you MUST force them to pass.

 

[Mike 1967]

Here are my thoughts on the subject.


We have not had a dominate pass rush since he has been the DC.
Ekuban posted a career high 8 sacks his first season away from Dallas. I realize this may be coincidence......time will tell.

But I do believe that Zimmer's approach is not aggressive enough.

Just look at Philly's defense...they lose thier 2 all pro corners and don't miss a beat. They just keep plugging in new bodies and keep coming up with the same results.

Having said this.....I do believe that Woody had a much bigger impact on this defense than most realized. (At least more than I realized)

The defense was on a tear the first half of 2003......but things started coming apart at the seams the second half which is also the same time that Woody began to slow down from the injury that would ultimately end his career.

And the defense was in dissaray all last year during his absense.

I undervalued Woody's value to this defense. Looking back on it.....I think he was a better value than Roy Williams. He might not have the highlight reel hits....but you would always see him around the line of scrimmage making key stops. But you would also see him making key plays in deep pass coverage.

Overall...IMO...he had better overall skills than Roy. Because his cover skills were heads and tails above Roys.

So I think it is partly Zimmers scheme...(no pass rush)....and partly the loss of Woodson.

 

[RoysAHitta]

common sense would state blame both bill parcells and zimmer for our defensive problems. our coaching staff completely forgot about our d. we lost a starting dt, starting cb, starting safety without any REAL replacements. granted everyone thought darren woodson might return again, but the question still had to be lingering in the back of BP's mind, what if he doesnt recover? and BP had to be wondering who was going to man that right cb spot, hunter was a heck of gamble to me. thats his job as a head coach, not zimmers. i mean how many big plays did that right cb spot and the safety opposite roy give up? i bet the numbers would be staggering.

personnel wise its parcells fault, zimmer can't write checks for players. zimmers jurdisdiction is limited to play calling. with that said, zimmer should of still seen what he was missing and not changed that much about the d. the only real playmaker we were missing was darren woodson, a 36 yr old i believe. mario edwards and willie blade couldn't of been responsible for such a decline in our d, they were average to below average. and i refuse to believe a 36 yr old safety could make our d plummet so much.

parcells should of brought in some d help via FA and zimmer should of adjusted his play calling immensly after that reserved minnesota game. simply put, both bill parcells and zimmer are at equal fault.

with that said, put talent around zimmer he's a good D coordinator. keep him.

 

[hank2k]

IMHO ,one of the big underrated reasons for our defensive struggles has been transitioning from what Zim wanted (smaller speedier guys)to what Parcells wants(bigger stronger guys) and finding the right mix of the 2. Philosophywise I think Bills approach is better simply because its harder to find the key pieces in Zimmers Defense(speed rushing DEs and corners who can play man well) than it is to find guys Parcells scheme fits.

 

[LesPaul]

Here are my thoughts on the subject.


We have not had a dominate pass rush since he has been the DC.
Ekuban posted a career high 8 sacks his first season away from Dallas. I realize this may be coincidence......time will tell.

But I do believe that Zimmer's approach is not aggressive enough.

Just look at Philly's defense...they lose thier 2 all pro corners and don't miss a beat. They just keep plugging in new bodies and keep coming up with the same results.

Having said this.....I do believe that Woody had a much bigger impact on this defense than most realized. (At least more than I realized)

The defense was on a tear the first half of 2003......but things started coming apart at the seams the second half which is also the same time that Woody began to slow down from the injury that would ultimately end his career.

And the defense was in dissaray all last year during his absense.

I undervalued Woody's value to this defense. Looking back on it.....I think he was a better value than Roy Williams. He might not have the highlight reel hits....but you would always see him around the line of scrimmage making key stops. But you would also see him making key plays in deep pass coverage.

Overall...IMO...he had better overall skills than Roy. Because his cover skills were heads and tails above Roys.

So I think it is partly Zimmers scheme...(no pass rush)....and partly the loss of Woodson.

Agree with all points but except not being aggressive enough.

We have been aggressive at times but it has always seemed like no one ever makes a play. Countless times though out the season I saw us blits and nobody would get to the QB.

I think it is more about the players them Zim.

 

[Mike 1967]

Agree with all points but except not being aggressive enough.

We have been aggressive at times but it has always seemed like no one ever makes a play. Countless times though out the season I saw us blits and nobody would get to the QB.

I think it is more about the players them Zim.

I know what your saying.

In 2003 we came out of the gate with very aggressive blitz packages. And we were having a lot of success.

But that success stopped around mid season. We started to get burned nearly every time we blitzed.

Perhaps this was a result of a fall-off in Woody's perfomance ? Or perhaps is was due to a young secondary and a weak corner on 1 side of the field ? Or was it that the opposing OC's were simply adjusting to our new blitz packages ? (But if this is the case then how come nobody seems able to adjust to Philly's blitzing style)

I really do scratch my head on this issue.

A person could argue that it is was due to a subpar line. One could argue it was due to coaching. One could argue it was due to a subpar backfield. Once could argue that it was the loss of Woody. Once could argue that it was the transition from Zimmers defence to one that was more Bills style.

And in the final analisys....there could be a grain of truth in all of these arguments. They could all be coming into play.

All I know is that I am tired of the following 3 things.

(1) What appears to be a high ratio of 3rd down conversion by the opposing offense. how many 3rd and 15's can a defense give up ?

(2) Lack of a pass rush.

(3) Melt down in the 4th quarter.

It seemed that when it came down to crunch time....when we had to stop somebody....we couldn't.

 

[jksmith269]

Ok let me up the ante


can any of the D's problems last season fall on the Offense's shoulders?

personally I say yes..... If the O could had more control especially in the second half and given the D some time to rest I think a-lot of games could have ended differently......

Is it me or Did Vinny's arm wear out after half time? I kept saying to myself "self if I were coach and was worried that Drew wasn't 100% ready I'd either let him start and vinny play the second half or vice versa. Vinny had 1 good half in him each game." Kinda like the Chicago game... I've never liked musical QB's but it sure couldn't have hurt us last year.......again this is just my opinion

 

[Banned_n_austin]

Simmer down now - Zimmer stays. This is a case of fair weather fanism. . .when the pieces are in place and Zimmer is coaching the #1 D, the fans love him.

When injuries happen to a defense - like the one the Cowboys suffered with Woodson - that change your entire blitzing scheme it's easy for the average moron to assess that it is the coaches fault.

When we lost Woodson, we were forced to play a more honest defense. It's that simple.

It gets even more simple when you look at all the injuries at RCB.

You have to have all the pieces in place to be succesful and last year wasn't a year where Zimmer had all of his pieces in place. He was forced to 'adjust' as they say in football.

His schemes changed as the personell cards were dealt. He was dealt injury last year. . .

As you can see this year, the team is working on putting the right pieces back in place.

Even an idiot like Parcells can figure this one out.

 

[Wolverine]

Mike Zimmer SSSSSUUUUUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKSSSSSSS




Oh the 2003 D. Well we had a pretty lil rankin of #1 but look a little closer and you will see we were last or near last in the NFL in turnovers QB pressures and QB sacks and tackles for losses. We had a real weak schedule and whenver we played a good team our D got lit up.


You could give Zimmer a Pro Bowlers at every position and a every back up be a Pro Bowler to and Zimmer would still finish near last or last in sacks QB pressures tackles for losses and turnovers. He is really stupid. He has no idea how to adjust at the half or durin the game. His D and schemes are so easy to read even my great grandman knows what is comin. His blitzes are so easy anyone can see them comin.

I think Parcells goin to the 4-3 is one of his ways of tryin to force Zimmer out cuz Parcells knows he sucks to. Zimmer is the stupidest DC in the NFL.

He might have a future as a janitor though.

 

[Banned_n_austin]

Ok let me up the ante


can any of the D's problems last season fall on the Offense's shoulders?

Yes yes and YES. . .

 

[Mike 1967]

Ok let me up the ante


can any of the D's problems last season fall on the Offense's shoulders?

personally I say yes..... If the O could had more control especially in the second half and given the D some time to rest I think a-lot of games could have ended differently......

Is it me or Did Vinny's arm wear out after half time? I kept saying to myself "self if I were coach and was worried that Drew wasn't 100% ready I'd either let him start and vinny play the second half or vice versa. Vinny had 1 good half in him each game." Kinda like the Chicago game... I've never liked musical QB's but it sure couldn't have hurt us last year.......again this is just my opinion

I was a fan of the Vinny signing in the beginning....but after last year I am no longer a fan.

I can sum my opinion of him up in one word.....CHOKER.

He hardly ever came through in the clutch. When the chips were down and the game was on the line he seemed to get that deer in the headlights look. And then he would throw an interception.

He would very rarely come through in the clutch. He did come through on that TD BOM to Clayton against the skins.

But a clutch conversion rate of 1 out of 10 times is not going to get it done.

What sets guys like Aikman, Brady, Staubach and Montana apart is that they would come though in the clutch more times than not. Vinny was not one of those guys.

Hopefully Bledsoe is.

 

[Banned_n_austin]

Mike Zimmer SSSSSUUUUUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKSSSSSSS




Oh the 2003 D. Well we had a pretty lil rankin of #1 but look a little closer and you will see we were last or near last in the NFL in turnovers QB pressures and QB sacks and tackles for losses. We had a real weak schedule and whenver we played a good team our D got lit up.


You could give Zimmer a Pro Bowlers at every position and a every back up be a Pro Bowler to and Zimmer would still finish near last or last in sacks QB pressures tackles for losses and turnovers. He is really stupid. He has no idea how to adjust at the half or durin the game. His D and schemes are so easy to read even my great grandman knows what is comin. His blitzes are so easy anyone can see them comin.

I think Parcells goin to the 4-3 is one of his ways of tryin to force Zimmer out cuz Parcells knows he sucks to. Zimmer is the stupidest DC in the NFL.

He might have a future as a janitor though.

:jerk:

Isn't it nice of our own village idiot to stop by. . .

Parcells is "trying" to force Zimmer out, eh?

So the offers Zimmer recieved for a HC job were just rumors?

 

[Mike 1967]

Simmer down now - Zimmer stays. This is a case of fair weather fanism. . .when the pieces are in place and Zimmer is coaching the #1 D, the fans love him.

When injuries happen to a defense - like the one the Cowboys suffered with Woodson - that change your entire blitzing scheme it's easy for the average moron to assess that it is the coaches fault.

When we lost Woodson, we were forced to play a more honest defense. It's that simple.

It gets even more simple when you look at all the injuries at RCB.

You have to have all the pieces in place to be succesful and last year wasn't a year where Zimmer had all of his pieces in place. He was forced to 'adjust' as they say in football.

His schemes changed as the personell cards were dealt. He was dealt injury last year. . .

As you can see this year, the team is working on putting the right pieces back in place.

Even an idiot like Parcells can figure this one out.

I have to make a confession.

I have coveted Philly's defensive scheme for the last 10 years.

I have not liked our defense since Haley left. We just never seem to abuse the opposing team. Sure..we had years where we were number 1 in the stats. But I just cannot get excited over the bend but don't break.

I want a defense that will at least occasionally takes control of the game and enforce thier will on the opposing offense.

 

[Banned_n_austin]

I was a fan of the Vinny signing in the beginning....but after last year I am no longer a fan.

I can sum my opinion of him up in one word.....CHOKER.

He hardly ever came through in the clutch. When the chips were down and the game was on the line he seemed to get that deer in the headlights look. And then he would throw an interception.

He would very rarely come through in the clutch. He did come through on that TD BOM to Clayton against the skins.

But a clutch conversion rate of 1 out of 10 times is not going to get it done.

What sets guys like Aikman, Brady, Staubach and Montana apart is that they would come though in the clutch more times than not. Vinny was not one of those guys.

Hopefully Bledsoe is.

I hated the signing initially. . . and then I liked it. . . and now I hate it again.

I "ate crow" after the 2nd game of the season, but I threw it up as the season went on.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

People blame Zimmer because it is an easier concept to understand than to blame it on the personnel, the real problem.

Zimmer is not aggressive because he understands that good defense begins with stopping the run. Seeing that our largest player on defense last year was Carson at under 290 playing nose tackle combined with undersized linebackers who cannot take on blocks and the wonder that was Wiley, it is no surprise that the man overplayed the run.

Combine that with the fact that Tony Dixon was the worst starting safety in the NFL and the revolving door at RCB and again it is not difficult to see that pass defense would be an issue.

But oh wait it was Zimmers fault.

The man stopped the run, he just didnt have the personnel to do both so it was pick your poison time.

What many of the knee jerks around here fail to see is that if they didnt stop the run then we would be eating play action passes all the more. Then your getting annihilated on both ends.

His defense was able to keep us in games most of the year. It should be no surprise that a defensive front 7 that averaged right around 260 pounds would wear down over the course of the game. It was evident in the fourth quarter collapses.

But wait that Zimmers fault too

Honestly i feel that the whole GROZ position is intellectually bankrupt. The man was given no talent and even Landry, creator of the 4-3 himself, would not have done much better with the scrubs we put on the field.

Zimmer will be back and it is very very clear that Parcells is not going to allow him to be short changed again this year with Henry, Ferguson and possibly Howard on the way. Zimmer will be putting up top 5 defensive numbers again and the lot of them will look pretty silly.

 

[Wolverine]

:jerk:

Isn't it nice of our own village idiot to stop by. . .

Parcells is "trying" to force Zimmer out, eh?

So the offers Zimmer recieved for a HC job were just rumors?

Well I think Parcells wants to go to the 4-3 so that way Zimmer will get even more lost then he already is and then Parcells can go to Jerry and say how stupid Zimmer is and how he needs a DC who actually knows somethin about football. ITs that easy.

 

[Banned_n_austin]

I think Parcells goin to the 4-3 is one of his ways of tryin to force Zimmer out cuz Parcells knows he sucks to. Zimmer is the stupidest DC in the NFL.

He might have a future as a janitor though.

This shows how eductated this poster is. . .

Zimmer was running a 4-3 before Parcells got here. . and now he's "forcing him out by going to the 4-3."



I'm embarrassed for you bro.

 

[jksmith269]

Well I think Parcells wants to go to the 4-3 so that way Zimmer will get even more lost then he already is and then Parcells can go to Jerry and say how stupid Zimmer is and how he needs a DC who actually knows somethin about football. ITs that easy.

Hey village we all know you mean the 3-4 at least we hope you do.............if not you need to change the pic on your ribbon......LOL J\J everyone makes mistakes