Successful teams are not afraid to be unconventional

[Typhus]

First of all I believe I DO know more about football than Jerry and Stephen.. at least on an X's and O's level. And I am not vain enough to think I could step in from day one and do the job.. but there is nothing I have done for 30+ years that I would NOT be better at than Jerry and Stephen are. So I do believe that given a couple to three years to figure out all the procedurals I could get it right with players more often than they have. At no point have I said I would hit on 100%.. but some of Jerry's screwups have been seen a mile away by 90% of the folks on these boards. Especially the drafting of hurt guys thing.. Or the character issues thing.. Not that I am a proponent of only drafting choir boys.. but some of the chances we've taken have simply been unnecessary. Hardy? Irving? or going back to Underwood or Spellman.. It was a well Jerry has visited far too often.. By the way, given how bad most of our defensive draftees have turned out, are you satisfied with what Jerry and Stephen have done with all that "needed info" and "actual NFL experience?"

It goes back further than that, after the Haley days, when we spent several late 1st round pics it seemed probably some seconds and thirds constantly every year trying to chase that dream,, who where they,, Carver, Zellner,, those were horrible reaches,, there were more and I dont even know if those were the correct names.. lol

 

[gjkoeppen]

First of all I believe I DO know more about football than Jerry and Stephen.. at least on an X's and O's level. And I am not vain enough to think I could step in from day one and do the job.. but there is nothing I have done for 30+ years that I would NOT be better at than Jerry and Stephen are. So I do believe that given a couple to three years to figure out all the procedurals I could get it right with players more often than they have. At no point have I said I would hit on 100%.. but some of Jerry's screwups have been seen a mile away by 90% of the folks on these boards. Especially the drafting of hurt guys thing.. Or the character issues thing.. Not that I am a proponent of only drafting choir boys.. but some of the chances we've taken have simply been unnecessary. Hardy? Irving? or going back to Underwood or Spellman.. It was a well Jerry has visited far too often.. By the way, given how bad most of our defensive draftees have turned out, are you satisfied with what Jerry and Stephen have done with all that "needed info" and "actual NFL experience?"

First you, we are talking about 2 different things. Actually no not really. All teams have two different scouting teams. One for college players and one for the pro players. Since none of us are privy to any discussions Jones has with the scouts we don't know if the problem is the info they are giving Jones or if Jones is ignoring what the scouts tell him about a player. Ultimately Jones makes the calls so it rests at his feet. I'm also pretty sure that coaches have told Jones what types of skill sets they are looking for in each position. As far as you thinking you know more about the X's and O's I don't know what you base that on because I don't know you personally but I do know that Jones does know all of the player positions and what they do. One more thing I want to point out is there has never been a time in the NFL when every player drafted by a team makes the team. The closest any team came to that was one year the Cowboys out of 13 rounds in the draft 11 of them made the team. On the other side of that there have been teams that haven't drafted very well at all even picking in the top 10 every year for a couple of decades with the team replacing the GM several times during that stretch so they can't blame just one GM for the team not getting any better. I have in the past thought that you have laid out some well thought out opinions but this time I think a little bit of your ego is showing up in this. I know that's a hard thing to overcome and we all do it from time to time.
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[blueblood70]

Honestly if I hadn't gone to a good school and landed a really good job I probably WOULD have pursued something like getting into football.. But at this point in my life I make too much money to go back to the crappy salaries that guys have to make while they "prove" their way through the ranks to get to be an NFL GM or even a scout.. To say nothing of the ridiculous hours they put in.. My guess is I'd already be on my 4th or 5th wife if I had gone that route. I never said I could be better than McClay or the Cowboys scouts.. I specifically said I think I could do better than the Joneses. I have a lot of respect for Will and the work he does.. I just don't think they always listen to him.. especially when drafting defensive players when Rod was here.

P.S. there is only one team I would care to work my way up to being GM and that job is taken for the next 30-40 years ..

but you didnt and you are NOT a GM nor even close to it so stop acting like one..

you are a self proclaimed expert on the internet behind a keyboard trying to play GM. Good one though,

grab that madden controller and go to town.. because thats as close of experience you have and will ever have to be a FO TYoe in the NFL..maybe they will hire you to break down game footage and tell them what went wrong. After 20 years you might get a ST job..

these guys have been around football most of their lives and worked hard to get to where they are now..then to be judged by a bunch of clowns on the internet is ridiculous..easy to have hindsight or be right by targeting names in the draft as fan and think you were better but guess what you are not the Jones family and their staff may get it wrong here and there but so do the rest of the 31 teams..

to use baseball as an example great hitter hit .300 so they are wrong .700 of the time..teams around the nfl have struck out taking the top 5 guys in the draft , complete nfl busts..many teams also passed on the same players the DC did , these players didnt get chosen before nor many spots after the DC passed on them..we all know the nbames..so lets get off the Jones hate and get real..

 

[RonnieT24]

First you, we are talking about 2 different things. Actually no not really. All teams have two different scouting teams. One for college players and one for the pro players. Since none of us are privy to any discussions Jones has with the scouts we don't know if the problem is the info they are giving Jones or if Jones is ignoring what the scouts tell him about a player. Ultimately Jones makes the calls so it rests at his feet. I'm also pretty sure that coaches have told Jones what types of skill sets they are looking for in each position. As far as you thinking you know more about the X's and O's I don't know what you base that on because I don't know you personally but I do know that Jones does know all of the player positions and what they do. One more thing I want to point out is there has never been a time in the NFL when every player drafted by a team makes the team. The closest any team came to that was one year the Cowboys out of 13 rounds in the draft 11 of them made the team. On the other side of that there have been teams that haven't drafted very well at all even picking in the top 10 every year for a couple of decades with the team replacing the GM several times during that stretch so they can't blame just one GM for the team not getting any better. I have in the past thought that you have laid out some well thought out opinions but this time I think a little bit of your ego is showing up in this. I know that's a hard thing to overcome and we all do it from time to time.
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I will never shy away from my ego. It's huge and it is not fragile. I'm a smart person.. VERY smart.. always have been.. 99th percentile smart. Monster test scores, Ivy League education, the whole shabang. I don't post that to brag but as a simple statement of fact. I have been really good at everything I've ever set my mind to being good at. As for X's and O's knowledge.. I'm sorry.. but nothing I have ever seen or heard from Jerry and Stephen would lead me to believe they are all that versed in that area. I have obviously watched the game pretty much my whole life (over 55 years), played it up through college, coached it up through high school and during my time coaching attended many coaching clinics aimed at learning the ins and outs of the modern game and how to teach it to our kids. Maybe I'm wrong and Jerry and Stephen grind away at X's and O's behind the scenes.. but I doubt it.. I realize that it's a display of hubris to think I could be better at building a team than the Joneses.. Mind you I absolutely LOVE Jerry Jones the owner.. I think he's the best owner in pro sports.. but he has NOT shown himself to be a good GM. And Stephen has really only shown himself to be good at keeping Jerry from making too many impulse buys but he has also allowed $$$ to cost us a lot of good players.. I have no issue declaring that Jerry and Stephen are both better at business than I could ever hope to be.. but they are no better than average as football team builders.. There is not a scenario where I would allow myself to be average at something I would be so passionate about.. at least none that I can conceive of.

Here's the thing about how the Joneses construct their team that gives me the belief that I could do better.. The times when the Cowboys have been good have been times when they have drafted well on the lines.. however invariably the Joneses have allowed themselves to drift away from that model and gone after splashy flashy players.. My philosophy would be an unwavering commitment to the trenches.. and fill in the "skill guys" after. I would never allow my line on either side of the ball to become a weakness.. Ever.. And I would never allow myself to be saddled with slappies at safety. If the guy back there didn't make plays I'd replace him.. period. I would apply that philosophy to pretty much every position.. Produce or get replaced. Period.

 

[gjkoeppen]

I will never shy away from my ego. It's huge and it is not fragile. I'm a smart person.. VERY smart.. always have been.. 99th percentile smart. Monster test scores, Ivy League education, the whole shabang. I don't post that to brag but as a simple statement of fact. I have been really good at everything I've ever set my mind to being good at. As for X's and O's knowledge.. I'm sorry.. but nothing I have ever seen or heard from Jerry and Stephen would lead me to believe they are all that versed in that area. I have obviously watched the game pretty much my whole life (over 55 years), played it up through college, coached it up through high school and during my time coaching attended many coaching clinics aimed at learning the ins and outs of the modern game and how to teach it to our kids. Maybe I'm wrong and Jerry and Stephen grind away at X's and O's behind the scenes.. but I doubt it.. I realize that it's a display of hubris to think I could be better at building a team than the Joneses.. Mind you I absolutely LOVE Jerry Jones the owner.. I think he's the best owner in pro sports.. but he has NOT shown himself to be a good GM. And Stephen has really only shown himself to be good at keeping Jerry from making too many impulse buys but he has also allowed $$$ to cost us a lot of good players.. I have no issue declaring that Jerry and Stephen are both better at business than I could ever hope to be.. but they are no better than average as football team builders.. There is not a scenario where I would allow myself to be average at something I would be so passionate about.. at least none that I can conceive of.

Here's the thing about how the Joneses construct their team that gives me the belief that I could do better.. The times when the Cowboys have been good have been times when they have drafted well on the lines.. however invariably the Joneses have allowed themselves to drift away from that model and gone after splashy flashy players.. My philosophy would be an unwavering commitment to the trenches.. and fill in the "skill guys" after. I would never allow my line on either side of the ball to become a weakness.. Ever.. And I would never allow myself to be saddled with slappies at safety. If the guy back there didn't make plays I'd replace him.. period. I would apply that philosophy to pretty much every position.. Produce or get replaced. Period.

You sound like someone thinking and patterning his style as a pre-cap type GM. Your gee if a player doesn't play as good as I thought I'd just replace him and completely forget about the cap and the ramifications replacing a player will have on it. Here's another little tidbit that I picked up on with your replace a player that didn't play as good as you thought and that is you've admitted that you would make mistakes on evaluating players. The same thing you criticize Jones of doing. Now you also brought up playing ball in college as part of your X's and O's superior knowledge and for get that Jones also played ball in college. Your coaching in high school really doesn't mean that much because I don't recall any high school coach the jumped from there to the NFL..

Your belief in your education is fine but that too really doesn't in any way make you superior on knowing football. In past years there was times on Saturdays when I would go to this sports bar to watch college ball and have a few with friends. There was a guy who like what Romo does now as a color commentator, stated exactly what plays were going to get run before the ball was snapped. This guy, his name is Randy, knows more about football than any other person I've ever talked to including guys who played at major colleges. One more thing about Randy, he didn't even finish high school because he got into some trouble as a kid. Later he studied football like others like you studied in college to get your degree. Anyways Randy who didn't even finish high school knows more about football than any person I ever talked to so your education really doesn't mean much as far as what your football knowledge is. As I said before you have in the past shared things that have had a lot of insight but on this I just don't agree with you.
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[jnday]

OK FAN Keyboard Experts..ahh the Fake wannbegms are out with claws out..use a fan page to just spew team hate..got to luv this place..

best advice i can give to fans

be fans, stay in your freaking lanes... you may FEEL like you can do this better then the Jonses, newsflash , you CAN NOT!!

Why not? They are not more qualified than the posters on this board. They are not real football people.

 

[EST_1986]

You'll not win this argument with sarcasm. I've already conceded they are in down years. My point is they have not always been so down and those times should not be discounted. And I believe they are making progress to get out of the cellar with their defense.

years? I think you mean quarter century

 

[Jake]

The Cowboys have an established way of doing business. They build the team through the draft and they try to keep their own guys in FA. You can complain and cry about it all you want but it doesn't seem that strategy is changing anytime soon.

That strategy doesn’t work either when you sign your own guys and they suck.

I get the philosophy, but it’s not working. It needs a shake up.

That's your uneducated opinion. It does work

This is the part where I post the results of the past quarter century of Jones & Jones Football Management, but I know it's pointless because you are not dissuaded by the actual results of this "working" philosophy.

 

[JoeKing]

years? I think you mean quarter century

The Packers only overtook the Cowboys last season for the distinction of the most winningest team. It's a matter of just a few games. So I'm right to say one bad year is the difference in the Cowboys not still being the team with that distinction. The Cowboys have had good seasons in the past 25 years so stop mischaracterizing the past quarter-century of the Dallas Cowboys.

 

[RonnieT24]

You sound like someone thinking and patterning his style as a pre-cap type GM. Your gee if a player doesn't play as good as I thought I'd just replace him and completely forget about the cap and the ramifications replacing a player will have on it. Here's another little tidbit that I picked up on with your replace a player that didn't play as good as you thought and that is you've admitted that you would make mistakes on evaluating players. The same thing you criticize Jones of doing. Now you also brought up playing ball in college as part of your X's and O's superior knowledge and for get that Jones also played ball in college. Your coaching in high school really doesn't mean that much because I don't recall any high school coach the jumped from there to the NFL..

Your belief in your education is fine but that too really doesn't in any way make you superior on knowing football. In past years there was times on Saturdays when I would go to this sports bar to watch college ball and have a few with friends. There was a guy who like what Romo does now as a color commentator, stated exactly what plays were going to get run before the ball was snapped. This guy, his name is Randy, knows more about football than any other person I've ever talked to including guys who played at major colleges. One more thing about Randy, he didn't even finish high school because he got into some trouble as a kid. Later he studied football like others like you studied in college to get your degree. Anyways Randy who didn't even finish high school knows more about football than any person I ever talked to so your education really doesn't mean much as far as what your football knowledge is. As I said before you have in the past shared things that have had a lot of insight but on this I just don't agree with you.
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Randy sounds like my kinda guy. My son and I used to do the same thing when we watched games together when he was living with me. It's fun.. I am probably less capable of doing it now because I'm out of practice watching games that way since he left home, went to college got hitched and such. Now I typically watch games by myself because it's just me, the wife and my teenage ballerina at home now.. Well she's 20 now so no longer a teenager.. but always my little girl. I had hopes of being able to watch the games with other Cowboys fans at their house or mine once I moved to Texas but Covid put the kibosh on that last year.. I hope 2021 is better on that front.

You make the point that any one component of my background alone not being enough to believe it to make me superior to the Joneses in terms of NFL roster construction. And you are correct.. But I mixed them all in there.. Playing college ball.. coaching.. attending coaching clinics.. and again.. adding all of it together with simply being a more intelligent human being than either of them.. Not saying I could do it tomorrow.. but saying that if you gave me 5 years in the job I would be better at the end of that 5 years than they are after 30. And again on X's and O's I dare say if me, Jerry and Stephen were in a room and asked to diagram any given play from both the offensive and defensive point of view I would slay either of them. I feel fairly confident of that. It's fine that you don't agree.. I am not one who needs all my friends to agree with me or kiss my butt to be friends with them. Hell having friends who challenge you is way more fun and interesting than hanging out with parrots.

 

[JoeKing]

This is the part where I post the results of the past quarter century of Jones & Jones Football Management, but I know it's pointless because you are not dissuaded by the actual results of this "working" philosophy.

3 world titles in 4 seasons is an impressive achievement... That's Jerry Jones Football management! Admit that happened and I might listen to the rest of your argument. It's Jerry Jones Management that has turned the Dallas Cowboys from an organization losing money to the most valuable sports franchise in the world. Maybe you are just a sports fan and have no interest in the business side of the business but an almost $5B value is nothing to sneeze at.

 

[RonnieT24]

The Packers only overtook the Cowboys last season for the distinction of the most winningest team. It's a matter of just a few games. So I'm right to say one bad year is the difference in the Cowboys not still being the team with that distinction. The Cowboys have had good seasons in the past 25 years so stop mischaracterizing the past quarter-century of the Dallas Cowboys.

It's a fair point but there can be no denying that the last 25 years of Cowboys football has been far less successful than the previous 25.. From 1996 to 2020 we have 4 playoff wins and 7 division titles.. and zero Super Bowls. From 1970 to 1995 we had 28 playoff wins, 13 division titles and won 5 Super Bowls. If you compare the two side by side it's no contest. I don't think we will ever see the kind of success we saw from '70 to '95.. But can we at least get in the same ball park? Hell getting halfway would be nice.... Yes we have had a few good seasons over the past 25 years.. but none of us should be satisfied with these results.. Are you?

 

[RonnieT24]

3 world titles in 4 seasons is an impressive achievement... That's Jerry Jones Football management! Admit that happened and I might listen to the rest of your argument. It's Jerry Jones Management that has turned the Dallas Cowboys from an organization losing money to the most valuable sports franchise in the world. Maybe you are just a sports fan and have no interest in the business side of the business but an almost $5B value is nothing to sneeze at.

Come on man, please don't go there. None of us fans is going to collect one dime of Jerry's money.. nor should we .. What we ask of the Cowboys is to bring us joy on Sunday afternoon. The more wins the more joy.. We keep going to the games.. watching on TV.. buying the swag.. so we're holding up our end of the bargain.. Now it's up to the Cowboys to hold up their end.. I hope this is the year they start doing that again.

 

[JoeKing]

It's a fair point but there can be no denying that the last 25 years of Cowboys football has been far less successful than the previous 25.. From 1996 to 2020 we have 4 playoff wins and 7 division titles.. and zero Super Bowls. From 1970 to 1995 we had 28 playoff wins, 13 division titles and won 5 Super Bowls. If you compare the two side by side it's no contest. I don't think we will ever see the kind of success we saw from '70 to '95.. But can we at least get in the same ball park? Hell getting halfway would be nice.... Yes we have had a few good seasons over the past 25 years.. but none of us should be satisfied with these results.. Are you?

All fair points. Hell no I'm not happy with the past 25 years.

 

[JoeKing]

Come on man, please don't go there. None of us fans is going to collect one dime of Jerry's money.. nor should we .. What we ask of the Cowboys is to bring us joy on Sunday afternoon. The more wins the more joy.. We keep going to the games.. watching on TV.. buying the swag.. so we're holding up our end of the bargain.. Now it's up to the Cowboys to hold up their end.. I hope this is the year they start doing that again.

Please not try to speak for other Cowboys fans or at least not this one. I bought a PSL licence for AT&T stadium when they first went on sale. Mine has more than doubled in value since that time so don't tell me Jerry's not making me any money.

 

[RonnieT24]

Please not try to speak for other Cowboys fans or at least not this one. I bought a PSL licence for AT&T stadium when they first went on sale. Mine has more than doubled in value since that time so don't tell me Jerry's not making me any money.

Touche, congrats on the PSL purchase.. and when are you going to invite me to a game!?!?! Or hell just let me know when you're going and where you're sitting (DM of course) and I will see if I can SeatGeek one close by.. I do think it would be fun to get a bunch of Zoners together for a game or two every year. We used to do it on the old DGMS site way back when and it was always a blast. We used to throw in for a parking pass so we could tailgate all day before and after the game.. We'd even all stay at the same hotel and turn it into a weekend.. Basically we would move the tailgate party from the stadium parking lot to the hotel parking lot after the game. Good times..

 

[JoeKing]

Touche, congrats on the PSL purchase.. and when are you going to invite me to a game!?!?! Or hell just let me know when you're going and where you're sitting (DM of course) and I will see if I can SeatGeek one close by.. I do think it would be fun to get a bunch of Zoners together for a game or two every year. We used to do it on the old DGMS site way back when and it was always a blast. We used to throw in for a parking pass so we could tailgate all day before and after the game.. We'd even all stay at the same hotel and turn it into a weekend.. Basically we would move the tailgate party from the stadium parking lot to the hotel parking lot after the game. Good times..

Send me your contact info and I'll put you on the waiting list. I'll be honest though, it's a long list that includes family and good friends so I doubt you ever get an invite but it's not personal. I'm sure you're a great dude to tailgate with. Last season was a total bust for my streak of seasons I attended games. The franchise reimbursed me for season tickets and I just can't wait to be able to go to games in my seats again.

 

[gjkoeppen]

Randy sounds like my kinda guy. My son and I used to do the same thing when we watched games together when he was living with me. It's fun.. I am probably less capable of doing it now because I'm out of practice watching games that way since he left home, went to college got hitched and such. Now I typically watch games by myself because it's just me, the wife and my teenage ballerina at home now.. Well she's 20 now so no longer a teenager.. but always my little girl. I had hopes of being able to watch the games with other Cowboys fans at their house or mine once I moved to Texas but Covid put the kibosh on that last year.. I hope 2021 is better on that front.

You make the point that any one component of my background alone not being enough to believe it to make me superior to the Joneses in terms of NFL roster construction. And you are correct.. But I mixed them all in there.. Playing college ball.. coaching.. attending coaching clinics.. and again.. adding all of it together with simply being a more intelligent human being than either of them.. Not saying I could do it tomorrow.. but saying that if you gave me 5 years in the job I would be better at the end of that 5 years than they are after 30. And again on X's and O's I dare say if me, Jerry and Stephen were in a room and asked to diagram any given play from both the offensive and defensive point of view I would slay either of them. I feel fairly confident of that. It's fine that you don't agree.. I am not one who needs all my friends to agree with me or kiss my butt to be friends with them. Hell having friends who challenge you is way more fun and interesting than hanging out with parrots.

I think you forget that Jones played college ball and knows how to draw up plays, but that's really not part of a GM's job. I seriously doubt that many if any GM if given a play can draw it up on a piece of paper with the exception of Elway. GM's rely on what coaches and scouts tell them about players and then act on that, not draw up plays. I'm starting to question your ability to be a GM in 5 or 10 years if you think they waste time drawing up plays or if you think that being able to do that helps being a GM in any way. The more you talk about how smart you think you are you're proving that your ego is even bigger than Jones's ego which you've criticized in the past. Not once have I mention or bragged about what college I went to or what my GPA was because quite frankly it has very little to do with what I know about football. There are many NFL players that know the game inside and out but were terrible students in college.
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[RonnieT24]

I think you forget that Jones played college ball and knows how to draw up plays, but that's really not part of a GM's job. I seriously doubt that many if any GM if given a play can draw it up on a piece of paper with the exception of Elway. GM's rely on what coaches and scouts tell them about players and then act on that, not draw up plays. I'm starting to question your ability to be a GM in 5 or 10 years if you think they waste time drawing up plays or if you think that being able to do that helps being a GM in any way. The more you talk about how smart you think you are you're proving that your ego is even bigger than Jones's ego which you've criticized in the past. Not once have I mention or bragged about what college I went to or what my GPA was because quite frankly it has very little to do with what I know about football. There are many NFL players that know the game inside and out but were terrible students in college.
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It's fair to question the value of the ability to diagram plays and defense however I will disagree with you and here's why. The ability to recognize plays, assignments et al enhance one's ability to know what a player was SUPPOSED to do on a play. And the more you know about what a player is SUPPOSED to do the better you will be to gauge how well they did it. Again, nothing is 100% but I am a firm believer that the more knowledge you have in an area the better able you will be to accomplish what you are trying to accomplish. If I can recognize that a secondary is in cover 2 and the corner follows his man across the field and the other team throws to a wide open man in the zone he abandoned then do I sit there and go "well look he covered HIS man?" or do I recognize that he blew his assignment and allowed a big play because of it. Knowing the X's and O's is important. Yes there is more to being a GM than just that but I think it's big. If all the GM does is execute the playbook handed to him by coaches and scouts then he is at the mercy of said coaches and scouts.. So he ends up giving too much weight to the voice of a Rob Marinelli, who while a very good DC, was a terrible talent evaluator. Now Jerry probably didn't know that when he first hired Rod.. but he should not have taken as long as he did to figure it out.

I know there is nothing I can say that will convince you of what I am saying.. I'm fine with that.. It's what I believe and it's not going to change.. I'm not going to go be an unpaid intern for some team and spend the next 10 years trying to get to be a GM. So I will never be able to prove any of it. But we all get to believe what we want to believe in life.. This one works for me!

 

[RonnieT24]

Send me your contact info and I'll put you on the waiting list. I'll be honest though, it's a long list that includes family and good friends so I doubt you ever get an invite but it's not personal. I'm sure you're a great dude to tailgate with. Last season was a total bust for my streak of seasons I attended games. The franchise reimbursed me for season tickets and I just can't wait to be able to go to games in my seats again.

Thanks, bro.. I was just kiddin.. I fully expect that you would have a list a mile long of people you would take to games before you got to "random dude on the internet." But we will absolutely have to figure out how to get a CZ tailgate to happen at some point this season..