Video: Broaddus: There's a divide in the Cowboys war room about Surtain and Horn

[Ranching]

Yeah thats what cost us an all pro pass rusher and a very good starting safety.

You can twist it anyway you want....I still defer to the coaches. I don't blame you and risen for not understanding. Not in your wheelhouse. It's cool.

 

[Risen Star]

If you listen to the coaches instead of the scouts in this situation then what exactly do you have scouts for?

Makes no sense. This isn't a tough call.

 

[Zekeats]

You can twist it anyway you want....I still defer to the coaches. I don't blame you and risen for not understanding. Not in your wheelhouse. It's cool.

Have another one

 

[Ranching]

Have another one

Don't mind if I do, thanks! Salud!!

 

[gimmesix]

You have to. You brought that DC in to install a system. He knows the type of players it takes to make it work. Scouts are looking at this holistically. There is a specific type of Corner needed to run this scheme. That might not be the best CB for a different scheme but it's the one that makes this scheme work.

Just draft the Oregon LT and be done with all of this already.

I don't completely agree. Yes, coaches are often looking for a certain type of player, but a lot of coaches have done terrible jobs when allowed to pick their players. Marinelli, based on his time as a head coach in Detroit, should have never been allowed to influence a draft pick.

I haven't gone through Quinn's drafts to see how Atlanta did while he was head coach (or how much influence he had), but if you have a department that spends the whole year evaluating players. Trust them to do their job. If they say Surtain should be selected, then I'd lean toward taking Surtain unless the coaches ask if he can do something they need from the position and the answer is no.

 

[Silly]

Does anybody know what kind of team Mike wants to build or what his plan for the team is?

 

[Cowboyny]

Quinn is link to Muschamp at South Carolina, so he knows everything about Horn. The NFL is about relationships, so Jaycee probably has the leg up.

I like Surtain and the vision of him and Diggs making life tough on WRs with their height n length.

Last year, Will McClay was in love with Reggie Robinson and that's a highly questionable pick imho, so I'm a little nervous trusting the scouts on CBs. However, Quinn wasn't stellar picking CBs in ATL. Also, I think Horn is closer playing style wise to AJ Terrell, Quinn's 1st round CB last draft.

Also, keep in mind MM coached his father at NO, probably has good inside info from his father.

 

[lqmac1]

So, you think that it's a better idea to let the guys who have been looking at the prospects for a couple of months have more sway than the group that have been looking at the guys, cultivating the relationships and gathering the information for years?

To me, let the coaches set the positional prototypes in terms of desired height/weight/speed/arm length/testing, and let the scouts go find those players.

Yes! 100%! When you have a defensive coordinator who orchestrated one of the best defenses of all time, absolutely!

Who cares about the relationship the scouts built? Their job is to gather information, bring it to the coaches & front office to help with the decision.

 

[CowboyoWales]

Marinelli had a few problems injecting his personal interest in player selection. For example Tristan Hill and Taco. So be careful what you wish for. Only Hill is still here.

Oh so we're playing the Hindsight Draft. Taco was the top ranked DE, and expected to go at about where we picked him. Hill was 58th pick who turned out to be lazy and failed to develop (until poss. 2020).

BTW - slightly different comparing D-Line with a more technically demanding CB. Blow the corner and it's TD time.

 

[CowboyoWales]

Scheme fit should not be a tie breaker. That is how you get caught drafting lesser talents. I do not see how Horn fits better than Surtain all things considered. Not in the top ten. This is a game you can play in later rounds.

Neither Horn/Surtain are a reach at 10 so neither are a "lesser talent". The workout stats are similiar....i'm not going to quibble over 1 bench press or 0.03 sec on a 40. There has to be some "tie-breaker", especially in highly technical positions where the two players have quite distinctive and varying qualities.

I've mentioned in earlier threads I personally would prefer Surtain (with a hope of playing Cover1 and using him to lockdown and Diggs/FS to hawk), however, it's not my defense and lets be honest either of us have a clue on what scheme Quinn/Whitt JR want to play.

A scout provides the objective data and subjective opinion on a player, however, the coaches analyse this data against which schemes they are drawing up.

 

[DuncanIso]

So, you think that it's a better idea to let the guys who have been looking at the prospects for a couple of months have more sway than the group that have been looking at the guys, cultivating the relationships and gathering the information for years?

To me, let the coaches set the positional prototypes in terms of desired height/weight/speed/arm length/testing, and let the scouts go find those players.

Yup.

This is Will McClays show.

 

[CowboyoWales]

I don't completely agree. Yes, coaches are often looking for a certain type of player, but a lot of coaches have done terrible jobs when allowed to pick their players. Marinelli, based on his time as a head coach in Detroit, should have never been allowed to influence a draft pick.

I haven't gone through Quinn's drafts to see how Atlanta did while he was head coach (or how much influence he had), but if you have a department that spends the whole year evaluating players. Trust them to do their job. If they say Surtain should be selected, then I'd lean toward taking Surtain unless the coaches ask if he can do something they need from the position and the answer is no.

Broaddus' doesn't quantify his coach vrs scout comment and as such it could well be slanted towards his own personal subjectivity. May be one dissenting scout that opposes the coaches view. Listening to him I get the impression he wants to be the smartest person in the room/broadcast, where personally i'm thinking 'please let Dane Bruglar speak'.

One of the problems with the 'scouting team' is that they feed the info/opinion to Quinn/Whitt JR, who were employed after the college season ended. I would have thought that coaches (when allowed) outline characteristics they're looking for....after all not all qualities are equal especially in a technically difficult position such as CB. It's evident that Surtain and Quinn are both round 1 CB's, who's talents are pretty equal but different.

 

[reddyuta]

Imo the Cowboys coaches get too much say and it always leads to bad selections.they should stick to their board like last year.

 

[CowboyoWales]

So, you think that it's a better idea to let the guys who have been looking at the prospects for a couple of months have more sway than the group that have been looking at the guys, cultivating the relationships and gathering the information for years?

To me, let the coaches set the positional prototypes in terms of desired height/weight/speed/arm length/testing, and let the scouts go find those players.

That's fine for some/most positions, however, when it comes to more technical positions there's more nuance than 'what 40 can he run".

As CB is one of the hardest positions to transition from college to NFL (look at Okudah as a prime example), it's difficult to give a definitive which corner's better than another, especially when the tape measure's very similar....but their playing techniques are so different.

 

[CowboyoWales]

Imo the Cowboys coaches get too much say and it always leads to bad selections.they should stick to their board like last year.

I think the same about Jerry.

 

[Winonesoon]

I don't think they can. I see BOTH Surtain and Horn in the top 10

nah, bet you a like and a smiley one is there. Bet?

 

[Ranching]

If you listen to the coaches instead of the scouts in this situation then what exactly do you have scouts for?

Makes no sense. This isn't a tough call.

See, obviously you don't understand grown man football. Scouts so much more than evaluate players. Scouts aspire to be coaches, what does that say.....

 

[TheMarathonContinues]

Ok say can we dead one thing right now? Drafting Surtain or Horn is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING LIKE drafting Taco over TJ Watt?

These guys have corrupted you and have you in fear. As a prospect there's no right or wrong decision in Surtain or Horn. NONE.

 

[CATCH17]

I say they should listen to the scouts in most cases.

In this case.. Listen to the Coaches since I agree with the coaches.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Dude, the scheme that Seattle plays in their secondary was really no different than what the Cowboys started doing in 2013. Who taught Pete Carroll and influenced how he approaches defense and scheming on the back end? I'll give you a hint - his name rhymes with Monte Kiffin. the same guy who put the scheme in Dallas in 2013, and also influenced Rod Marinelli's views on defense.

No, this is not true. Yes, Kiffin and Carroll, were at Arkansas together, but only for one year. After that, Carroll left so this is not Kiffin's scheme. Sorry, whoever sold you that idea is wrong. It's probably Floyd Peters who had more influence but that's a guess on my part. Peters was the DC in Minnesota when both Carroll and Kiffin were there. This actually goes back to the Tampa 2, which a lot of people credit Kiffin with but in actuality, Kiffin isn't the Secondary idea man behind the scheme. In fact, I don't believe Kiffin ever coached the secondary. He was a LBs and DL coach for most of his career if I am not mistaken. So crediting him with secondary principles, as related to the Tampa 2 or even Seattles scheme is inaccurate. That's Tony Dungy, who learned it in Pittsburgh. Hell, even the Tampa 2 is not the genesis of the secondary approach for Carrolls scheme. The Steelers teams of the 1970s is where it came from and that's Bud Carson, who was a DB Coach and this is where the secondary principles of the Seattle Scheme originated. So Carson taught it to Dungy, who took it to Tampa and that's the link for Kiffin but not for Carroll. Carroll was influenced differently in that he and Kiffin went their own ways. It was not till much later that Kiffin and Carroll reunited, like at USC or something. I know that Carroll once said that Kiffin taught him everything about Defense but that's not really the case. Yeah, Kiffin was a believe in Cover 3 but he wasn't a believer in Single High, which is what Carroll uses. Carroll came up with that himself, that wasn't Kiffin. Carroll was influence more, probably by Earl Bruce at OSU, then Kiffin at Arkansas, to be honest.

Anyway, the link at Arkansas, with Kiffin was only for a year is what I'm getting at. It was much later that Kiffin and Carroll came back together and by that time, Carroll had already figured out his secondary scheme. Kiffin didn't teach it to him.

Just saying.