4 rookies starting on defense, plus two FAs?

gimmesix

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-And Watkins ? Notice how media channels and fan talk, are not even bothering to sniff out Watkins, never even mentioned in really any talks as a piece of this new expectations.
Seems more the talk of camp body, than true rotation guy.

Watkins had more pass rushing success last year than any of our other tackles. I think he's a rotation player who most likely needs to be limited to interior pass rusher in the nickel. He played DE/DT for Houston, but my understanding is that he wasn't real good against the run. Until someone proves otherwise, though, he might be our best pass-rushing DT, although that's not really saying all that much.
 

gimmesix

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didn't watkins also play some DE, so he maybe a swing player. of the last three,

perhaps Hill gets traded, if those other 5 make it. otherwise, Hill may make it as a DT (he has to vow in preseason and show some maturity). then Watkins can be a swing DE/DT. I don't see Anae making it. he doesn't seem to fit and is quite limited. although ownership has a strong affinity for Armstrong. I would like to see him traded for a low round conditional pick as well.

Yes, Watkins was a 3-4 DE for the Texans and could play that role here (and maybe that's why Quinn brought him in since he did start 10 games last year). I just haven't read much good about him as a run stopper. If Quinn's base is a 3-4 hybrid on run downs, I don't know if Watkins is a good fit for that.
 

gimmesix

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Base defense is nickel. Nickel packages are two-down players. 1Ts who can't rush the passer are 1-down players, and that's Bohannon.

Bohannon is not going to create movement. His job is literally going to be not to move lol.

Again, it just seems like what the role on any team does is being overstated...and then add to the mix that this guy is a 6th-round pick, he's not going to see significant snap counts.

Although we will be in the nickel a majority of the time, it is not considered our base defense ... at least not by our defensive coordinator, who has said the 3-4 is his base. As others have pointed out in other threads, this most likely is a 3-4 disguised as a 4-3, with Lawrence playing down as the LEO or DPR. However, I'm a little iffy about it because those predictions are based on what Quinn did in Seattle and Atlanta and he has said that he tweaked his scheme after being fired by Atlanta because he "didn't want to do just another rinse and repeat."
 

fivetwos

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Base defense is nickel. Nickel packages are two-down players. 1Ts who can't rush the passer are 1-down players, and that's Bohannon.

Bohannon is not going to create movement. His job is literally going to be not to move lol.

Again, it just seems like what the role on any team does is being overstated...and then add to the mix that this guy is a 6th-round pick, he's not going to see significant snap counts.
Agree with you here.

I still have no idea why any team threw one single pass against us last year, but they couldn't help themselves.

Stopping the run used to be paramount.

Now I'd say it's about trying to steal a possession or two via turnover, and getting off the field on 3rd down.

Fans are a bit starved for a big guy in the middle, so Bohannon is the savior.
 

gimmesix

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Agree with you here.

I still have no idea why any team threw one single pass against us last year, but they couldn't help themselves.

Stopping the run used to be paramount.

Now I'd say it's about trying to steal a possession or two via turnover, and getting off the field on 3rd down.

Fans are a bit starved for a big guy in the middle, so Bohannon is the savior.

Bohanna is not a savior. He's a role player. That role is to clog the middle and force offenses to use extra blockers to try to move him on run downs. Players like him are available later in the draft because they can't rush the passer and have very specified roles.

It think this idea that he's just a sixth-round pick is silly because his position/role doesn't get drafted early like DTs who can rush the passer well (like Barmore in the second round) and DTs who can stop the run but also have a little pass rushing ability (like McNeill in the third).

We got Bohanna in the sixth round simply because of the role he plays. He's a one-down or two-down lineman, depending on the distance. If it's first-and-10, he'll probably be out there. If it's second-and-5 (maybe 4) or shorter, he'll probably be out there. If it's third-and-1, he'll probably be out there.
 

Future

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Although we will be in the nickel a majority of the time, it is not considered our base defense ... at least not by our defensive coordinator, who has said the 3-4 is his base. As others have pointed out in other threads, this most likely is a 3-4 disguised as a 4-3, with Lawrence playing down as the LEO or DPR. However, I'm a little iffy about it because those predictions are based on what Quinn did in Seattle and Atlanta and he has said that he tweaked his scheme after being fired by Atlanta because he "didn't want to do just another rinse and repeat."
The point is that it doesn't matter what you call base. You can call punt defense your base if you want.

But if a guy is going to be a rotational piece in any defense that isn't nickel, he's not a particularly important piece overall and isn't going to play a lot of snaps.
 

gimmesix

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The point is that it doesn't matter what you call base. You can call punt defense your base if you want.

But if a guy is going to be a rotational piece in any defense that isn't nickel, he's not a particularly important piece overall and isn't going to play a lot of snaps.

If we don't stop the run on first down, then the opponent is going to keep running the ball and he's going to be out there a whole lot more than we'd like. If he's doing his job, then he won't be out there much, which is what we want and certainly makes him an important piece overall.
 

CowboyRoy

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we don't have that many DTs, ..with Osa, Hill, Gallimore, Urban and Hamilton. but seemingly a lot of DEs. like Gregory, Gholston, Anae, Lawrence, Armstrong, Besham, Carter, Watkins. probably a couple of them will be swing players at DT and DE. but that's a lot of players to throw at DE, hoping 4 or 5 come out. do we keep 9 or 10? it will be interesting camp battles.

I dont think a lot of those guys are making it. Armstrong, Carter, Anae, Watkins, Hamilton. Maybe one of those guys makes it. Two at the most.
 

CowboyRoy

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Odighizuwa at DE, Bohanna at NT, Urban at DE, Lawrence at LEO or whatever they want to call designated pass rusher in this scheme.

LVE, Parsons, Smith at linebacker.

Joseph, Diggs at corner. Wilson, Kazee at safety.

That would be four rookies and two free agents, none at the same position.

You could be right about Urban at 1-tech and I think he's the only other option besides Bohanna, but I don't think he's a good fit. NTs need a low center of gravity and mass so that they are hard to move and force double-teams. Urban is 6-7, 300 pounds. I think we would be doing him a disservice asking him to anchor against double-teams, but he'd be ideal as a 3-4 DE going against a tackle or guard.

I believe Gallimore will be a pass-rushing DT/3-tech. He's not known for his run-stopping ability, while Odighizuwa is, but maybe Gallimore has improved in that area since many of the write-ups on him said he's strong but needs technique work.

So you are saying that a 3rd and 6th round rookies are going to start over guys like Gregory and Gallimore? I cant believe that until I see it.

I think a lot of you guys put too much emphasis on a rookies ability to start in the NFL, especially on defense.

The secondary you have up there is all set. Those are the guys. Unless Kazee isnt healthy.
 

gimmesix

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So you are saying that a 3rd and 6th round rookies are going to start over guys like Gregory and Gallimore? I cant believe that until I see it.

I think a lot of you guys put too much emphasis on a rookies ability to start in the NFL, especially on defense.

The secondary you have up there is all set. Those are the guys. Unless Kazee isnt healthy.

I'm not saying they are going to get more playing time than Gregory or Gallimore. I think their playing time is specific to a role, particularly in the pseudo-3-4 defense. I think both were drafted with those roles in mind, but Dallas also believes Osa can play 3-tech in the 4-3.

Gallimore and Gregory should both play 60 percent of the snaps or more since both will be out there on most nickel snaps. Bohanna will be out there about 30 percent of the time, depending on how the run defense does. Odighizuwa's snaps in the nickel will depend on what he shows.

I think early in the season, there's a better chance of Gallimore and Hill/Watkins being out there as the 4-3 DTs than Odighizuwa, but ideally, Osa would push Watkins/Hill to the sideline as the season progresses.

I do think Gregory will get some snaps in the 3-4 fronts in the role that Lawrence plays because I don't think we want to have Lawrence out there on all the early downs and not have him available on the passing downs because he's tired. I also expect to see Basham, who's a good run defender, out there some in that DPR/LEO role. (Maybe Golston, too, but we might see him as a small 3-4 end, and I think his primary role will be as an inside rusher.)

Starting is such a loose term with the players who will be out there in the 3-4 fronts because that group might be out there the least, if they are doing a good job of stopping the run. A player like Urban, for instance, also falls into that category, because we don't want him out there in pass defense.
 

CowboyRoy

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I'm not saying they are going to get more playing time than Gregory or Gallimore. I think their playing time is specific to a role, particularly in the pseudo-3-4 defense. I think both were drafted with those roles in mind, but Dallas also believes Osa can play 3-tech in the 4-3.

Gallimore and Gregory should both play 60 percent of the snaps or more since both will be out there on most nickel snaps. Bohanna will be out there about 30 percent of the time, depending on how the run defense does. Odighizuwa's snaps in the nickel will depend on what he shows.

I think early in the season, there's a better chance of Gallimore and Hill/Watkins being out there as the 4-3 DTs than Odighizuwa, but ideally, Osa would push Watkins/Hill to the sideline as the season progresses.

I do think Gregory will get some snaps in the 3-4 fronts in the role that Lawrence plays because I don't think we want to have Lawrence out there on all the early downs and not have him available on the passing downs because he's tired. I also expect to see Basham, who's a good run defender, out there some in that DPR/LEO role. (Maybe Golston, too, but we might see him as a small 3-4 end, and I think his primary role will be as an inside rusher.)

Starting is such a loose term with the players who will be out there in the 3-4 fronts because that group might be out there the least, if they are doing a good job of stopping the run. A player like Urban, for instance, also falls into that category, because we don't want him out there in pass defense.

Would love to see Bohanna starting games in the middle, but I just have a hard time believing a 6th rounder can come in and play even 30% of the snaps. I think they whiffed bad on getting a guy like McNeil in the 3rd. We shall see.

One thing for sure is that most people seemed confused about what they are doing on the Dline. Seems like we have lots of specialty guys and are missing the true stud that can just play the position for most of the game.
 

gimmesix

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Would love to see Bohanna starting games in the middle, but I just have a hard time believing a 6th rounder can come in and play even 30% of the snaps. I think they whiffed bad on getting a guy like McNeil in the 3rd. We shall see.

One thing for sure is that most people seemed confused about what they are doing on the Dline. Seems like we have lots of specialty guys and are missing the true stud that can just play the position for most of the game.

I don't disagree with you on missing the true stud. Although I think there are some players in the draft who maybe could have fit that mold, it really wasn't a good draft to find one. I would have preferred that we go hard in free agency after someone like Tomlinson, but that's not the Cowboys' way now.

However, I do think Bohanna is being viewed wrongly just because he was taken in the sixth round. He didn't last until that round because of how he can play against the run; he lasted until the sixth because he offers nothing against the pass. Look at the DTs in this draft and where they were taken. McNeill, a player I valued, lasted until the third because he's a stud run defender with a questionable amount of ability against the draft. The run-only DTs weren't taken until the fourth round on because teams just don't like to spend a first- or second-day pick on a one- or two-down player. That doesn't mean Bohanna can't be really, really good at that role. He just doesn't offer more than that.

If we had taken a 3-tech in the sixth round, I would think that player had a very slim chance of making the roster. A pure 1-tech in the sixth round is about like taking a fullback or kicker at that point. It's around the point where they go.
 

CowboyRoy

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I don't disagree with you on missing the true stud. Although I think there are some players in the draft who maybe could have fit that mold, it really wasn't a good draft to find one. I would have preferred that we go hard in free agency after someone like Tomlinson, but that's not the Cowboys' way now.

However, I do think Bohanna is being viewed wrongly just because he was taken in the sixth round. He didn't last until that round because of how he can play against the run; he lasted until the sixth because he offers nothing against the pass. Look at the DTs in this draft and where they were taken. McNeill, a player I valued, lasted until the third because he's a stud run defender with a questionable amount of ability against the draft. The run-only DTs weren't taken until the fourth round on because teams just don't like to spend a first- or second-day pick on a one- or two-down player. That doesn't mean Bohanna can't be really, really good at that role. He just doesn't offer more than that.

If we had taken a 3-tech in the sixth round, I would think that player had a very slim chance of making the roster. A pure 1-tech in the sixth round is about like taking a fullback or kicker at that point. It's around the point where they go.

I really wanted Mcneil as well. I think they got caught napping hoping that either McNeil or Milton would fall and missed out on both. Osa wound up being the booby prize. Probably my biggest issue with the draft was NOT trading up to make sure they got McNeil when he was dropping.
 

gimmesix

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I really wanted Mcneil as well. I think they got caught napping hoping that either McNeil or Milton would fall and missed out on both. Osa wound up being the booby prize. Probably my biggest issue with the draft was NOT trading up to make sure they got McNeil when he was dropping.

I think McNeill will be an every-down player. Bohanna will only be a specialty player. That doesn't mean he won't be good at his specialty, but it does handicap us when he is in the game. Both he and Urban add little to nothing as pass rushers, so that benefits offenses when they decide to pass on first down.

Like you said, if we had that true stud who could stuff the run and also collapse the pocket on the passer, we'd be much better off. Unfortunately, the only player we have who is a stud run defender and pass rusher is Lawrence ... and without someone to take pressure off him by putting some pressure on the passer, he's always going to be chipped, doubled, etc., to take him away.

Hopefully, Parsons' ability to attack will help take some of the attention off Lawrence. If we do play "bigs" like Urban, Bohanna and Odighizuwa on first down, we're going to have to bring Parsons when teams choose to pass. I'm hopeful Osa can get some pressure in those situations as well, but I question if he can do that as a rookie. I think he'll be strong against the run, but it seems to take young defensive tackles a little longer to find themselves as pass rushers.
 

J-man

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IMO, the starting D-line in base 4-3 will be D-Law Gallimore Urban Gregory.
 

kskboys

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IMO, the starting D-line in base 4-3 will be D-Law Gallimore Urban Gregory.
Galley and Urban play the same position, and Urban is strictly a good rotational player. If he's starting, then we've done a poor job of team building again.
 

kskboys

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I think McNeill will be an every-down player. Bohanna will only be a specialty player. That doesn't mean he won't be good at his specialty, but it does handicap us when he is in the game. Both he and Urban add little to nothing as pass rushers, so that benefits offenses when they decide to pass on first down.

Like you said, if we had that true stud who could stuff the run and also collapse the pocket on the passer, we'd be much better off. Unfortunately, the only player we have who is a stud run defender and pass rusher is Lawrence ... and without someone to take pressure off him by putting some pressure on the passer, he's always going to be chipped, doubled, etc., to take him away.

Hopefully, Parsons' ability to attack will help take some of the attention off Lawrence. If we do play "bigs" like Urban, Bohanna and Odighizuwa on first down, we're going to have to bring Parsons when teams choose to pass. I'm hopeful Osa can get some pressure in those situations as well, but I question if he can do that as a rookie. I think he'll be strong against the run, but it seems to take young defensive tackles a little longer to find themselves as pass rushers.
You don't think BigBo will be a pocket collapser? His scouting report says he is capable.

Collapsing the pocket is actually a huge part of the pass rush, though Jerry does not understand this.
 

J-man

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Galley and Urban play the same position, and Urban is strictly a good rotational player. If he's starting, then we've done a poor job of team building again.

I hear ya, but IMHO, we don't really have many choices for the 1T. Guys big enough and capable of playing it are Hill, Gallimore, Urban, Bohanna, Hamilton and Watkins. Hill is ok and hopefully still improving so maybe he wins the job. I think Gally is best at the 3T, but can slid to the 1T on passing downs. I highly doubt Bohanna is anything but a rotational goal line/short yardage insert, at least to start the season.
I really don't know what to expect for Watkins but I guess we'll see. Hamiltion is a JAG.

So although undersized for the 1T, I just think at this point Urban is probably an upgrade in the run defense over Hill.
 

gimmesix

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You don't think BigBo will be a pocket collapser? His scouting report says he is capable.

Collapsing the pocket is actually a huge part of the pass rush, though Jerry does not understand this.

It will be a bonus if he can. At this point, if he can just hold his ground and either force a second lineman to have to stay on him in order to move him or clog a running lane, he's an upgrade over what we got from the position last year. It's hard for even good college pass rushers to get much pressure their rookie year, so I'm not expecting that from him.
 

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Starters on run downs

RDE
Chauncey Gholston

RDT
Trysten Hill

LDT
Quinton Bohanna


LDE
Brett Urban


WLB
Jaylen Smith


MLB
Leighton Vander Esch


SLB
Francis Bernard


CB
Israel Mukamu


CB
Nashon Wright


FS
Donavan Wilson


SS
Keanu Neal





STARTERS on Passing Downs

RDE
Randy Gregory


RDT
Osa Odighizuwa


LDT
Neville Gallimore


LDE
DeMarcus Lawrence


LB
Jabril Cox


LB
Micah Parsons


CB
Trevon Diggs


CB
Kelvin Joseph


CB
Jourdan Lewis


FS
Damontae Kazee


SS
Reggie Robinson
 
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