After further review a week later, Refs stole game from Cowboys vs Packers once again

Vtwin

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Obviously, at least some of the officials would have to know, and I doubt any of them make a fraction of the money they would from a "tell all" book, and the interviews that would come with it
The repercussions from writing that tell all book have to be considered, and there would need to be legit, rock solid proof or he/she would be immediately written off as a good old conspiracy theorist.

Nobody wants this applecart upset. Nobody.

People here can't even bring themselves to reflect on history and at least consider for one second the legitimate arguments being presented to why it just might be possible, both strategically and in implementation.

Tinfoil hat, conspiracy theorist, etc.......

Good luck to anyone trying to break through that with anything less than a mountain of irrefutable, undeniable evidence.
 

Runwildboys

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The repercussions from writing that tell all book have to be considered, and there would need to be legit, rock solid proof or he/she would be immediately written off as a good old conspiracy theorist.

Nobody wants this applecart upset. Nobody.

People here can't even bring themselves to reflect on history and at least consider for one second the legitimate arguments being presented to why it just might be possible, both strategically and in implementation.

Tinfoil hat, conspiracy theorist, etc.......

Good luck to anyone trying to break through that with anything less than a mountain of irrefutable, undeniable evidence.
I really don't think it would be difficult to record Goodell, one of the owners, the head of officiating, or whomever might be involved outlining the plan for a particular game or season, however it is they'd plan something like that.

Or there's always the option of a disgruntled employee making an anonymous confession to the press. Certainly there have been people who would have done so, had there been anything to talk about. Even if there were no proof, just the mere appearance of any impropriety (forgive the A Few Good Men reference) would be satisfying to someone who felt unjustly fired, underpaid, etc.
 

SteveTheCowboy

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I was responding to something specific. If my comment had nothing to do with yours, why did you reference it? :huh:



The game moves fast. You're making calls in the moment. Maybe you can share with me a call that is not split second?



True. But there are transferable concepts such as speed of the game, focus and concentration and a commitment to trying to get a call right.
If that occurs on a high school baseball diamond, imagine how much more it would on an NFL field with the best of the best.


I missed your context. Research to do what? Prove that games aren't rigged? :huh:


You must have missed the "unless there is factual evidence" part of my comments.
Yes, there have been times in sports history where umpires, refs have cheated. But those things are usually discovered and rooted out of the game. That's the exception rather than the norm. These posts about refs tend to contextualize "bad" calls as intentional conspiracies for which there is no proof.



No, we just don't resort to conspiracy theories without proof.


Why would you quote me about something I never said? I was clarifying that fact for you.

Guess you never heard of a "late flag"? Weird.

My "NFL is different than high school"...is in regards to Money, influence, power. Mostly MONEY. High school athletics aren't as concerned about raking billions of dollars, as much as they can possibly rake. And would it be unfathomable for an athletic association or booster to ...say...embezzle. People do bad things for even a LITTE bit of money. And get away with it sometimes.

"research"...to study the effects of calls, no calls, reviews, reversals, fines, suspensions or lack thereof. Just like I said the first time.

These posts are NOT all about refs cheating. They are about the NFL as a complete , greedy billions dollar global corporation...that isn't really held accountable like many businesses are.

I never said there was outright "proof". But I would say the Zeke suspension is extremely suspect....right when the Cowboys were popping. Stopped us in our tracks, just as intended.

I am NOT "buying in"...nor using them as any excuse. I'm just saying....why do people think it is so impossible, while ridiculing others for suggesting it might be.
 

Runwildboys

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Why would you quote me about something I never said? I was clarifying that fact for you.

Guess you never heard of a "late flag"? Weird.

My "NFL is different than high school"...is in regards to Money, influence, power. Mostly MONEY. High school athletics aren't as concerned about raking billions of dollars, as much as they can possibly rake. And would it be unfathomable for an athletic association or booster to ...say...embezzle. People do bad things for even a LITTE bit of money. And get away with it sometimes.

"research"...to study the effects of calls, no calls, reviews, reversals, fines, suspensions or lack thereof. Just like I said the first time.

These posts are NOT all about refs cheating. They are about the NFL as a complete , greedy billions dollar global corporation...that isn't really held accountable like many businesses are.

I never said there was outright "proof". But I would say the Zeke suspension is extremely suspect....right when the Cowboys were popping. Stopped us in our tracks, just as intended.

I am NOT "buying in"...nor using them as any excuse. I'm just saying....why do people think it is so impossible, while ridiculing others for suggesting it might be.
I think the whole Zeke thing was simply Goodell trying to satisfy sponsors by setting an example.
 

tyke1doe

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Why would you quote me about something I never said? I was clarifying that fact for you.

But I didn't quote you first?

Guess you never heard of a "late flag"? Weird.

Sure, I have.
Late flags are also called making sure you get the call right before calling a penalty.
You're told that in umpiring and refereeing. Sometimes, you make the call immediately because you're sure. Sometimes, you wait because you want to give yourself time to process. And, usually, on late flags, refs conference.
What you call "weird" others would call a lack of understanding.

My "NFL is different than high school"...is in regards to Money, influence, power. Mostly MONEY. High school athletics aren't as concerned about raking billions of dollars, as much as they can possibly rake. And would it be unfathomable for an athletic association or booster to ...say...embezzle. People do bad things for even a LITTE bit of money. And get away with it sometimes.

First, are you saying it would be unfathomable in the sense that it would be impossible? Please clarify because theft goes on in the high school level also and that's because of a lack of accountability.

Second, where there is more money, especially in a visible sport like football, there is even MORE accountability. The history of sports is not unspotted with graft and corruption. Therefore, there are more protocol surrounding these sports.

Third, I think fans let their imaginations run wild. They think because there's a lot of money in the sport, the league or refs are somehow conspiring to cheat. But, again, there is no evidence of this. Besides, the refs have a review process also. Refs are graded, and if they continue to not be up to the job, they are demoted.

"research"...to study the effects of calls, no calls, reviews, reversals, fines, suspensions or lack thereof. Just like I said the first time.
To prove what?
What is your hypothesis?
What would this study specifically show?
You have to have a reason for a study.

These posts are NOT all about refs cheating. They are about the NFL as a complete , greedy billions dollar global corporation...that isn't really held accountable like many businesses are.
Why, then, the need to patrol/hold accountable the NFL if it's not about cheating or conspiracy?
It seems like you all are talking around the topic.
Well, we need a study?
A study for what?
To hold the NFL - this greedy billion dollar corporation - accountable?
Why do we need to hold them accountable?
Because they're too greedy?
What effect has this greed played on the NFL?
We don't know?
Then why have a study?
Because we need to find out.

I never said there was outright "proof". But I would say the Zeke suspension is extremely suspect....right when the Cowboys were popping. Stopped us in our tracks, just as intended.
I didn't like the Zeke suspension either. But I don't think it was some conspiracy.
I remember what Michael Irvin said, which was very profound. When he had his troubles, he said Commissioner Paul Tagliabue told him based on who he represented (the Dallas Cowboys) and the prestige behind himself and the franchise, he punished him harsher than he would have someone else. It's the "to whom much is given much is required" principle.

I am NOT "buying in"...nor using them as any excuse. I'm just saying....why do people think it is so impossible, while ridiculing others for suggesting it might be.

Because we live in an age of conspiracy theories and passing the blame. People don't want to own up to their own failures. It's always someone else.

I see it all the time. Everyone calls a perfect game from the stands. But it's different when you're actually doing it. And I can assure you there are coaches I do not like. But when I'm on the diamond, I'm concentrated on the game. I'm not thinking "Let me screw this coach because of what he said in a previous game."

And if I'm like that, I believe there are others. Not everyone is out to get you or your team.

That's the reaction you're seeing. Not ridicule but exasperation.
 

SteveTheCowboy

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I think the whole Zeke thing was simply Goodell trying to satisfy sponsors by setting an example.
And the feud with Jerry had nothing to do with it. Okay.

Even so...unacceptable. 6 games? To keep the money flowing? If this is true...what else goes on behind the closed doors?
 

SteveTheCowboy

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But I didn't quote you first?



Sure, I have.
Late flags are also called making sure you get the call right before calling a penalty.
You're told that in umpiring and refereeing. Sometimes, you make the call immediately because you're sure. Sometimes, you wait because you want to give yourself time to process. And, usually, on late flags, refs conference.
What you call "weird" others would call a lack of understanding.



First, are you saying it would be unfathomable in the sense that it would be impossible? Please clarify because theft goes on in the high school level also and that's because of a lack of accountability.

Second, where there is more money, especially in a visible sport like football, there is even MORE accountability. The history of sports is not unspotted with graft and corruption. Therefore, there are more protocol surrounding these sports.

Third, I think fans let their imaginations run wild. They think because there's a lot of money in the sport, the league or refs are somehow conspiring to cheat. But, again, there is no evidence of this. Besides, the refs have a review process also. Refs are graded, and if they continue to not be up to the job, they are demoted.


To prove what?
What is your hypothesis?
What would this study specifically show?
You have to have a reason for a study.


Why, then, the need to patrol/hold accountable the NFL if it's not about cheating or conspiracy?
It seems like you all are talking around the topic.
Well, we need a study?
A study for what?
To hold the NFL - this greedy billion dollar corporation - accountable?
Why do we need to hold them accountable?
Because they're too greedy?
What effect has this greed played on the NFL?
We don't know?
Then why have a study?
Because we need to find out.


I didn't like the Zeke suspension either. But I don't think it was some conspiracy.
I remember what Michael Irvin said, which was very profound. When he had his troubles, he said Commissioner Paul Tagliabue told him based on who he represented (the Dallas Cowboys) and the prestige behind himself and the franchise, he punished him harsher than he would have someone else. It's the "to whom much is given much is required" principle.



Because we live in an age of conspiracy theories and passing the blame. People don't want to own up to their own failures. It's always someone else.

I see it all the time. Everyone calls a perfect game from the stands. But it's different when you're actually doing it. And I can assure you there are coaches I do not like. But when I'm on the diamond, I'm concentrated on the game. I'm not thinking "Let me screw this coach because of what he said in a previous game."

And if I'm like that, I believe there are others. Not everyone is out to get you or your team.

That's the reaction you're seeing. Not ridicule but exasperation.


You actually did quote me....and my point stands. Refs do make split decisions... and slow ones too...which some can be changed upon review...and some of those reviewed decisions can be puzzling. Not "proof"...but puzzling none the less.

You are making a lot of assumptions about my comments...some of which have nothing to do with anything I said.

By your own admission....NFL is cheating. Intentionally treating players/teams differently based on their notoriety? That disproportionately hurts better players and teams.

If this is true...I rest my case. If these are public decisions...then what goes on privately? Just this is plenty enough for me.

"Need a reason to research"...you're hilarious and really struggling here with your reasoning. These numbers and data would be pure gold for the avid sports fans and statisticians.

Meanwhile....this is "research":
https://list25.com/25-extremely-bizarre-research-papers/
 

Pola_pe_a

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Congress wants nothing to do with upsetting this applecart. It would take a massive case to be brought forth to even get them to give it the side eye.

Who is bringing that case?

Hell, if Sheila Ford Hemp had THE smoking gun in her hand it would still be in her best interest to not upset the apple cart.

The league is built on the integrity and parity of the game, lose that league dies.

And the anti-trust issue is brought up all the time through legal challenge (2010) or as a potential way to get what they want (DC investigation).

Let’s see who would be interested in eliminating anti-trust exemption:
-TV networks
-advertisers
-rival sports leagues that don’t have the same status

Again how does manipulating games financially benefit the league?
 

MarcusRock

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I think there are certain times when a team plays so good like we did against the Vikings that it makes it very difficult for them to do what they need to do to keep the games competitive.
I think most times it's a little easier I really love that game because we were playing so mistake free and at the top of our game in all three areas that they really had to make it look obvious to try and keep us from getting that three points.
I'm thinking there were already a lot shown and it would be tough to reverse CDs catch when there was so much evidence that he was in.

I honestly think they were really scrambling on that play.

I don't think that the whole thing is airtight by any stretch of the imagination .
To do that it would truly look like All Star wrestling.

All of it purely my opinion not trying to change anybody's mind
I appreciate having a civil discussion with you over it.

So it's a general thing whereby the Cowboys only get snared when they get too good for themselves, or too good for the TV analytics. Likewise, we benefit when we suck because refs will help us be competitive. The latter is not a popular belief around here, lol. So a team like the Legion of Boom can lead the league in penalties but still win the Super Bowl because they're just too good. They blew out the Broncos in that game so the execs weren't happy about that on the most expensive commercial day of the year I guess. I mean, I can see all this. Like I said, it's hard to refute that it's in the best interests of the league to have games be competitive. I just think there are better ways to do it than using a bunch of ref crews who all have to be in on it so that they don't overrule each other plus it's a plan that can fail. I like my more foolproof plan better where the QBs can control the game for you and, if you go one level higher, tell them who should win so you can bet on it and make individual money on top of money for the league. If greed has no limit, why limit it? My honest opinion is I don't care if the league is rigged or not. This is entertainment for me. So long as no one spoils the ending, I can ride the wave of surprises, etc. or just choose not to watch. But if you are going to spoil the ending, only tell me so I can bet on it. Lol.

Likewise, I appreciate the civil discussion and your previous shout out about me doing so respectfully. I saw your other comment about not caring if others don't believe what you believe and I feel the same way. It's always curious to me that I'm met with anger when I show up to post the rules or better video of a play like in this thread. It makes me think that those people aren't really sure of or secure in what they believe and then get upset when it isn't co-signed without question to hide that frail background, or are just pissed that their slanted take was exposed. When people are more emotional than rational about a differing opinion, it's something to take note of. Too much of that going around.
 

MarcusRock

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@MarcusRock , fess up now, boy. You're a plant by the league to try to counter all the conspiracy arguments, so they can continue to rig games, aren't you? Don't lie, boy! We know a liar when we see one!
:laugh:

Let me ask Roger how I should answer this obviously fake and misrepresentation of my character on these boards.
 

tyke1doe

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You actually did quote me....and my point stands. Refs do make split decisions... and slow ones too...which some can be changed upon review...and some of those reviewed decisions can be puzzling. Not "proof"...but puzzling none the less.

I didn't say I didn't quote you. I SAID I didn't quote you FIRST. This is a classic example of taking a comment out of context.

Second, yes, they can be puzzling. And that can be attributed to:

1. Fans don't always know the rules. See the Tuck call. I was on the Raiders' side initially. But a strict interpretation of the rule favored the Pats.
2. Mistakes. Refs are human. They make mistakes because they are human.

But none of that means refs are intentionally making calls to hurt one team over another. If this is not what you're talking about, then we have no argument.

You are making a lot of assumptions about my comments...some of which have nothing to do with anything I said.

I'm going to bow out here because it seems we're talking passed one another. You responded my comments initially, and I guess you were trying to make a certain point. Since it's apparent it's not the point I was making, this discussion is becoming confusing.

By your own admission....NFL is cheating. Intentionally treating players/teams differently based on their notoriety? That disproportionately hurts better players and teams.

Huh? Where did I say the NFL is cheating? I said Michael Irvin got a punishment harsher than another player based on Irvin himself said. But Irvin DESERVED the punishment. That is TOTALLY different than making calls because you don't like a team or a player.

If this is true...I rest my case. If these are public decisions...then what goes on privately? Just this is plenty enough for me.

I pass. I have no idea what you're talking about.

"Need a reason to research"...you're hilarious and really struggling here with your reasoning. These numbers and data would be pure gold for the avid sports fans and statisticians.

Uh, I am a researcher. One of the first things you're taught as a researcher is that you develop a hypothesis, i.e., why are you studying a particular phenomenon, what's the significance. Research is a part of scientific investigation. If people are dying after eating purple apples, you seek to determine why? Your "why" is the reason.


I used to mock research too - BEFORE I knew what it was and why it was necessary.

Sometimes, people mock what they don't understand.
 

SteveTheCowboy

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I didn't say I didn't quote you. I SAID I didn't quote you FIRST. This is a classic example of taking a comment out of context.

Second, yes, they can be puzzling. And that can be attributed to:

1. Fans don't always know the rules. See the Tuck call. I was on the Raiders' side initially. But a strict interpretation of the rule favored the Pats.
2. Mistakes. Refs are human. They make mistakes because they are human.

But none of that means refs are intentionally making calls to hurt one team over another. If this is not what you're talking about, then we have no argument.



I'm going to bow out here because it seems we're talking passed one another. You responded my comments initially, and I guess you were trying to make a certain point. Since it's apparent it's not the point I was making, this discussion is becoming confusing.



Huh? Where did I say the NFL is cheating? I said Michael Irvin got a punishment harsher than another player based on Irvin himself said. But Irvin DESERVED the punishment. That is TOTALLY different than making calls because you don't like a team or a player.



I pass. I have no idea what you're talking about.



Uh, I am a researcher. One of the first things you're taught as a researcher is that you develop a hypothesis, i.e., why are you studying a particular phenomenon, what's the significance. Research is a part of scientific investigation. If people are dying after eating purple apples, you seek to determine why? Your "why" is the reason.



I used to mock research too - BEFORE I knew what it was and why it was necessary.

Sometimes, people mock what they don't understand.
As you are doing here.
You're fighting something that doesnt need a fight.
I think the nfl makes decisions for maximum profit, sometimes selfishly andnit in the vest interests of pure ethics.

You think theyd never do such a thing. After admitting they dont treat players and teams punitively fair....for sponsorship purposes.

Right there its unethical.

So we disagree. Big deal. Shall we just resort to insults?
No thanks. Have a good day.
 

tyke1doe

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As you are doing here.
You're fighting something that doesnt need a fight.
I think the nfl makes decisions for maximum profit, sometimes selfishly andnit in the vest interests of pure ethics.

We live in a capitalistic society. Of course, businesses are going to make decisions to maximize profits. But that doesn't mean they'll intentionally cheat or call plays unfairly on purpose. That's why we're talking about the refs, right? :huh:

You think theyd never do such a thing. After admitting they dont treat players and teams punitively fair....for sponsorship purposes.

Right there its unethical.

No, it's not. Unequal punishment is not necessarily unethical. Those who are given more responsibility should be held to a higher standard. You're conflating concepts.

So we disagree. Big deal. Shall we just resort to insults?
No thanks. Have a good day.

No insults here.

Anyway, peace.
 

IceBowler

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Greg, you just had a fellow poster (who said he was a NCAA Div 1 official for many years) admit the game at the college level was very much run based on agendas, politics, media markets and conference shenanigans, etc, yet you continue to stubbornly dig in and refuse to believe there is some bias officiating at the NFL level. I guess you do believe in the Easter Bunny after all?
:muttley:

And let us never mention the fact that as of recently, the NFL now has partnered up with several gambling operations on a national basis .. :thumbup:
I will tell you this - During my seasons doing D1 ball, I never met a player, coach, assistant, official or, conference staff, who didn't know the point spread on that particular day. Not saying anything but that. Not even saying that aspect of it plays into it :thumbup:

I actually saw more, shall we say, gray area things done and said involving game officials in response to conference administrators and their henchmen than any other single source group .. and this was before the absurd amount of TV money now - which has only exacerbated the obvious.
 

IceBowler

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I agree. The league is run on many of those agendas but that doesn’t translate to organized corrupt officiating .

There are only three way to "tilt" an NFL game:

1. Buy the QB
2. Manipulate the Injury Report
3. Buy the official - or threaten him with a blackball.
 

IceBowler

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I suppose it depends where you are playing in the arena . Most people don’t make the correct choices in life to allow themselves to be in the arena .

I’ve been involved either directly or indirectly in both arenas . And the system works as it was intended .

Not everyone places themselves in a position to be a part of it . They become outsiders and feel that everyone is out to get them.

Calling it rigged is just a way of denouncing or not accepting their own failures. Or lack of effort to be a part of it.

The system isn’t perfect . It has flaws. Can be manipulated , etc. It also has check and balances.

Until there is public accountability for suspect or poor officiating, there are NO checks and balances. You don't have a clue to what lengths the Conferences and NFL go to in order to downplay or outright ignore egregious situations. I do - I've been there.
 
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