Creating a case for TE at 26 - Kincaid

T-RO

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League is different now with all these spread offenses, where the college game translates far quicker than in the past. No saying he will light the league on fire, but I can see these top TE’s making an immediate impact

I don't think there's one tight end in the history of the NFL with 1,000 yards in his rookie season.

How about Hall-of-famers:
Tony Gonzalez: 368
Gronkowski: 546
Witten: 347
Kelce: 0
Shannon Sharpe: 99

Other Recent pro-bowlers?
Andrews: 552
Kittle: 515

Please find a rookie tight end with even 700 yards in past ten years. I'm skeptical even that exists. None of these rookies are going to pop 1,000 yards out of the gate.
 
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JBS

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I don't think there's one tight end in the history of the NFL with 1,000 yards in his rookie season.

How about Hall-of-famers:
Tony Gonzalez: 368
Gronkowski: 546
Witten: 347
Kelce: 0
Shannon Sharpe: 99

It would be amazing if any of these rookie tight ends had 700 yards.

Please find a rookie tight end with even 700 yards in past ten years. I'm skeptical even that exists.
K. Pitts
 

cnuball21

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I don't think there's one tight end in the history of the NFL with 1,000 yards in his rookie season.

How about Hall-of-famers:
Tony Gonzalez: 368
Gronkowski: 546
Witten: 347
Kelce: 0
Shannon Sharpe: 99

It would be amazing if any of these rookie tight ends had 700 yards.

Please find a rookie tight end with even 700 yards in past ten years. I'm skeptical even that exists.
Kyle Pitts and Evan Engram…but regardless I don’t think he has to have 700+ yards to have an immediate impact even though it’s feasible.

If we bring in a legit #2 WR he’d just give an extra viable option that can help convert big 3rd downs, be a big mismatchand win in the endzone.

Keep adding weapons. Less contested throws, less drops, less bobbled that turn into picks. More efficient offense against playoff caliber teams.
 

gtb1943

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Im not on board with this


Im not taking a TE just because the QB failed last year in the playoffs


TEs take time to develop and make an impact.
Actually some of the best TE's had significant impact their rookie years
Depends on how polished they were coming out of college
That is why Washington for all his freakish athleticism worries me as a pass catcher. He needs a lot of work there
 

baltcowboy

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I keep coming back to this:

Who was the last 1st round TE that made a huge difference for the team that drafted him?
Yeah, Kyle Pitts killed my fantasy football team. :facepalm: . It’s not really about stats though for the Cowboys. Washington would help our offensive line and running game. Meyer and Kincaid are better then any wideout that you would get at 26. Both are Redzone weapons.
 

T-RO

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Kyle Pitts and Evan Engram…but regardless I don’t think he has to have 700+ yards to have an immediate impact even though it’s feasible.

-Ingram had 722 yards his rookie season, and that required him to get 115 targets! (horrible YPA). He was notorious for drops.
-OK, so Kyle Pitts the TE of the century barely bested 1k, posted 1,026 his rookie year....before dropping to 356 this season

I'm not going to chase down all the first round TEs, but this sample shows me enough: 500 yards would be very successful for a rookie tight end, and above the curve for even the best in the business.
 

T-RO

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All I've said about calibrating expectations doesn't mean I'm completely out on a TE in round one.

But more of a mind to just go best player available.
 

JBS

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All I've said about calibrating expectations doesn't mean I'm completely out on a TE in round one.

But more of a mind to just go best player available.
Yes. Theres a very good chance that player will be a tight end.

You are going to get 27 catches for 297 yards and you will like it
 

beware_d-ware

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PFF had a good article on tight ends awhile back. I remember reading it, cause I was wondering "why the hell did David Njoku get so much money..."

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-te-david-njoku-new-contract-cleveland-browns-2022

This is the relevant part.

I alluded to this idea in a tweet recently, but the tight end position is littered with players who took longer to perform up to expectations.

My colleague Timo Riske did excellent work on age curves, which showed that tight ends accumulate the lowest percentage of their career WAR (40%) before the age of 25 (Njoku is currently 25 years old) and the highest percentage of their career WAR after the age of 30 (19%).

Jason Fitzgerald of Over The Cap did an informative study on the premium-ness of positions by essentially going through the 20 highest-paid players at the position and determining what percentage of those players were available via free agency. Tight end was one of the least premium positions, in large part because even top players readily changed teams after their rookie deal.

Anecdotally, while the San Francisco 49ers were able to capitalize on the late bloom of Vernon Davis’ career, the list of players at the position who were drafted by one team but made their biggest contribution to another team is quite vast: Visanthe Shiancoe, Benjamin Watson, Delanie Walker, Jared Cook, Martellus Bennett, Charles Clay, Greg Olsen, Eric Ebron and Vance McDonald are all recent examples.

The proverb from the Fitzgerald study speaks less to the mistake of paying guys like Njoku too much and more to drafting them too high in the first place.

The current Browns regime — while not the regime that made the mistake of selecting Njoku too high — is likely going out of its way not to be yet another franchise that drafts another’s franchise tight end.

This is why I'd love to just pay Schultz and call it good. TEs take forever to develop, so an early draft pick probably isn't going to give you your money's worth on his 4 year contract. But they stay productive for a long time, so a vet TE free agent probably will.

The problem is that the ~$15M/yr Schultz wants is just way too rich. I have no problem believing he can keep churning out 50/500/6 seasons for the duration of his second contract. But that production justifies probably half that salary.
 

buybuydandavis

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I'll preface this by saying I'm not a big fan of taking a TE at 26. The positional value is a little iffy for me and I'm on the fence if there is a TE in this class worth the selection.That being said, after watching a Kincaid a few times dude arguably has the best hands / ball skills in this class. He runs quality routes, catches everything (bad balls included) and wins jump balls in the end-zone like #1 WRs do. You have to look at him as a mismatch TE weapon (Goeder, Engram) instead of the traditional inline.

- If he tests out like an athletic freak at his pro day
- If the WR board is wiped (Johnston, Addison, Flowers, JSN all gone)
- If our Offense can use him correctly and get him on the field (don't give me the BS excuse he can't block and make him TE3 year 1)
- If we sign / trade for a solid vet WR (OBJ / Hops / Cooks / etc...)

Obviously a lot of IFs but in this scenario I could get excited about a draft like (used PFF mock sim):

- Dalton Kincaid / TE
- Eli Ricks / CB
- Tyler Scott / WR

2023 O:

WR1: Lamb
WR2: OBJ (if healthy)
WR3: MG / Scott
WR4: MG / Scott
WR5: Tolbert

TE / Flex: Kincaid
Ferguson looked pretty good last year and we have much more need on the oline.
 

buybuydandavis

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This is why I'd love to just pay Schultz and call it good. TEs take forever to develop, so an early draft pick probably isn't going to give you your money's worth on his 4 year contract. But they stay productive for a long time, so a vet TE free agent probably will.
Schultz took a long time to develop - was considered a potential roster cut one season.

Meanwhile, Ferguson's ypt is already in the quality WR range. Looked good with the ball in his hands too. I think we've already hit on at least an average NFL TE.
 

cnuball21

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-Ingram had 722 yards his rookie season, and that required him to get 115 targets! (horrible YPA). He was notorious for drops.
-OK, so Kyle Pitts the TE of the century barely bested 1k, posted 1,026 his rookie year....before dropping to 356 this season

I'm not going to chase down all the first round TEs, but this sample shows me enough: 500 yards would be very successful for a rookie tight end, and above the curve for even the best in the business.
There’s a lot more to it than just yards…I just played along for your example.
 

cnuball21

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PFF had a good article on tight ends awhile back. I remember reading it, cause I was wondering "why the hell did David Njoku get so much money..."

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-te-david-njoku-new-contract-cleveland-browns-2022

This is the relevant part.



This is why I'd love to just pay Schultz and call it good. TEs take forever to develop, so an early draft pick probably isn't going to give you your money's worth on his 4 year contract. But they stay productive for a long time, so a vet TE free agent probably will.

The problem is that the ~$15M/yr Schultz wants is just way too rich. I have no problem believing he can keep churning out 50/500/6 seasons for the duration of his second contract. But that production justifies probably half that salary.
Schultz had a negative EPA when targeted last year. He racked up yards bc he had a high volume of targets.

He’s the definition of average. I can’t pay a TE 12+ mil to be average.
 

cnuball21

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Ferguson looked pretty good last year and we have much more need on the oline.
Ferguson looked looked ok last year. But Kincaid gives you a much higher ceiling.

If there’s a good OT available at 26, yea I’m all in, but I’m certainly not reaching for need.
 

buybuydandavis

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Ferguson looked looked ok last year. But Kincaid gives you a much higher ceiling.

If there’s a good OT available at 26, yea I’m all in, but I’m certainly not reaching for need.
I think there are some big centers this year. G/C backup this year, hopefully, C next year.
 

Proof

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Atlanta drafting Kyle Pitts and then using him the way they did is criminally insane. They should be forced to let him go to a team that knows how to use him.

Even with Atlanta misusing Pitts so bad, he still had over 1000 yards as a rookie. He is special.

The thing with many first round TE’s is that teams look for guys with elite athletic testing numbers, and many times they are guys with huge upside but less than ideal actual production in college.

Guys like Njoku, OJ Howard, and Noah Fant. Those guys are rare athletes but not really good TE’s. That, IMO is a big reason why some failed to make an impact. They just are great athletes… not great football players.

TE is a difficult position to play in the NFL,,, you need to take guys that have already played it at a high level. Guys like Pitts (who will be great) and TJ Hockenson played well in college and they came into the league being able to play the position.

So, for me, if I’m going to use a high pick on a TE, I need to see a highly productive college career with enough athleticism to be able to still flourish in the NFL. The mind is such an important part of playing TE. Instincts, angles, leverage… all things a TE needs, that should be there in college.

That is why I still hesitate with Washington, even though I love his build, athleticism and dominant blocking.

It is also why I would be all in on Kincaid. He has demonstrated everything you want to see in a TE… and frankly, he’s done it at such a high level and moves and catches the ball so well, that I have zero concern about him being anything other than a really good NFL player.

If Dallas picks him, Kincaid will help the team right away, IMO and will be a very valuable piece of what Dallas does next year.

I just tend to stay away from guys like Njoku. I am drawn to guys like Kincaid.

JMO
do you work in the industry at all?
 
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