4 teams including champs had "high interest" in Hitchens

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Every year..
1. Reach for a player
2. Put out rumor "31 teams were about to pick him"
3. Convince fans he has the most potential of those left. Fans can't believe such a gem was buried under a rock - thanking god the org is blessed with such stellar talent evaluators in the mid to late rounds
4. Set up highlight reel
5. Plant seed "We set at X position for the next 8 years"
6. Carry on the roster longer than talent warrants based on performance because of draft selection
7. Eventually draft position as a 1st rounder when the hole is exposed - Sell that "of course a 1st rounder plays better than a 4th rounder"
8. Rinse. repeat

Nice cop out. One size fits anything blanket dismissals are so convenient. It's baseless for several reasons. first of all I can build my own blanket dismissals

1) Player is drafted that fanbase has never heard of before
2) Find draft site that has prospect ranked lower than selection.
3) Post scathing diatribe about business as usual at VR.
4) Group of half a dozen posters likes every post in thread.
5) Evidence comes to light that player does not suck.
6) Denounce post as koolaid drinkers do what koolaid drinkers do.
7) Same group of half a dozen posters likes every post of the diatribe.
8) When prospect begins playing well claim that you were behind the pick the entire time.

Sorry but I don't like every move the team makes. I didn't like the trade up for Lawrence. I didn't like trading up for Claiborne. I didn't like the Felix Jones pick. I didn't like the Bobby Carpenter pick. I think holding onto Bill Callahan is folly. I didn't like the switch to the 3-4.

The list goes on but what is irritating is that in order to get credibility from certain fans I have to demonstrate a willingness to bash the team.

Fact is that birddog26 is a national scout cited by amongst others Dane Brugler, Moore and Rainier from DMN, Mike Fisher and the folks over at BTB.

He did not float a rumor. He straight out said that those teams were interested and the champs specifically were ready to pick him with their choice in the 4th. Sorry if that gets in the way of your slamming the team.

 

[TheDude]

I just get annoyed with people who say guys suck and will never be anything in the NFL right away when we draft them. Its like, you have no idea and it'd be nice to at least give the guy a chance before we say he's garbage. You would think if you are a fan of the team that drafted the player you'd give him a chance at least, especially if you are a fan of the team that employs Tony Romo as your Pro Bowl QB. Where was he drafted again? Oh yea..

Fair point, but proclaiming he will be a starter or contributor for many years is the same vein. The exasperation, though, is NEVER with the player its with the FO and position some of these players are taken in. Had Hitchens been a 7th rounder or UDFA, there would be no threads on him.

Also, there is no one left at VR who had anything to do with selecting, finding, grooming Tony Romo. I think that is a stretch comparison

 

[jobberone]

I dunno but hopefully he's another Holloman. Dallas had zero depth @ LB and thankfully landed a couple of decent prospects. Hitchens may surprise some of his compared measurables were as good as the top prospects and his durability is well noted.

I might be a tad too optimistic about him. We have Durant, Carter and Lee. That can be a very good LBing corp. But Carter has to bring his A game and the other two need to stay healthy.

I tend to believe others had interest in Hitchens but we don't really know. What's important is the grade they had on him and if they really thought they'd miss out on him as well as how he performs down the road. If he can't get significant snaps or be a good backup then that's on the team's evaluation process. If he is a good or better player they deserve kudos.

Holloman is good blitzing and decent in coverage....maybe better. He didn't stand up to the run well. So he needs to take on and shed blockers better.

Lemon is strong enough to play Sam but his coverage skills are suspect although he's better than I thought he'd be....probably not good enough.

All the rest are big question marks. I suspect someone on the team, drafted, and/or an UDFA will surprise.

Yes, our depth is suspect and has been since Lincoln was a baby.

 

[JD_KaPow]

Until one of these mid-round reaches actually pans out, I will continue to assume that they are simply reaches and that the Cowboys do not, in fact, know something that nobody else knows. As soon as one of them comes in and surprises, I'll reconsider, but not until then.

 

[jobberone]

Fair point, but proclaiming he will be a starter or contributor for many years is the same vein. The exasperation, though, is NEVER with the player its with the FO and position some of these players are taken in. Had Hitchens been a 7th rounder or UDFA, there would be no threads on him.

Also, there is no one left at VR who had anything to do with selecting, finding, grooming Tony Romo. I think that is a stretch comparison

Same rant as last year with Fred although you may not have....I don't keep that info handy as it is irrelevant.

The draft is a crap shoot. Can't fails....fail. UDFAs make people wonder what the heck were they thinking. The Blackmon's of the world fail despite more talent than most everyone. People get injured. Billy Cannon was going to be HOF IMO. Then he's out of the league. Many more just for Dallas.

You pays your dollar and takes your chance....as diligently as possible. We've actually done reasonably well esp having to pick for need and use picks for....need. It's hard to dig yourself out of a hole.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

As far as the niners, Rams, Seahawks, cards, etc - who really knows what is real information, misinformation, agent rumor, etc. If a story is told 3rd-12th hand, I don't even bother assigning a stock value. Your source may not be lying to you, but he could have been lied to or heard the story from someone with different interpretations

For someone who touts "empirical evidence", "scientific method", etc. It seems you would be somewhat curious to test a null hypothesis that the Dallas Cowboys recent talent evaluators have uncovered a disproportionate amount of NFL caliber player in the mid rounds to late rounds to other teams.

I'm not going to get into some long argument about this because none of it is likely to be proven. My assumption and opinion is that this team has had below par talent and simply having Tony Romo has added 3-5 wins per year. I have the past records to support my opinions. I also think the evaluation of the defense recently (injuries or not) and Oline until last year cost this team 2-4 wins per year. I also can't point to a single one of these "supposed draft reaches" that has panned out - but I could be missing someone.

Of course none of it will be proven. You are making quantitative statements about things that are not quantified. Seems a big waste of time to me absent any statisitcal analysis. You will go ahead and speak in those terms anyway.

I keep an open mind but asserting what I should be curious about is laughable I am not sure what uncovering talent to other teams really means anyway. Are you saying that they are more successful in late rounds or rather that they are not? You are assuming the conclusion of that is the case.

As to whether or not to take the guy at his word, it is easy to be nihilist when it is convenient. Thing is I know that the guy has access and I don't think he is a buffoon. A professional scout says that teams were interested and exactly why should I dismiss it? Oh yeah you don't have a basis you create stories and insert that for the truth.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Until one of these mid-round reaches actually pans out, I will continue to assume that they are simply reaches and that the Cowboys do not, in fact, know something that nobody else knows. As soon as one of them comes in and surprises, I'll reconsider, but not until then.

Well Fred was supposedly a reach and he worked out. I don't see how him being a bigger reach as a first rounder precludes him.

Quite frankly I think the idea of reaches on day 3 to be asinine in the first place. After the top 100 its a FFA.

 

[TheDude]

Nice cop out. One size fits anything blanket dismissals are so convenient. It's baseless for several reasons. first of all I can build my own blanket dismissals

1) Player is drafted that fanbase has never heard of before
2) Find draft site that has prospect ranked lower than selection.
3) Post scathing diatribe about business as usual at VR.
4) Group of half a dozen posters likes every post in thread.
5) Evidence comes to light that player does not suck.
6) Denounce post as koolaid drinkers do what koolaid drinkers do.
7) Same group of half a dozen posters likes every post of the diatribe.
8) When prospect begins playing well claim that you were behind the pick the entire time.

Sorry but I don't like every move the team makes. I didn't like the trade up for Lawrence. I didn't like trading up for Claiborne. I didn't like the Felix Jones pick. I didn't like the Bobby Carpenter pick. I think holding onto Bill Callahan is folly. I didn't like the switch to the 3-4.

The list goes on but what is irritating is that in order to get credibility from certain fans I have to demonstrate a willingness to bash the team.

Fact is that birddog26 is a national scout cited by amongst others Dane Brugler, Moore and Rainier from DMN, Mike Fisher and the folks over at BTB.

He did not float a rumor. He straight out said that those teams were interested and the champs specifically were ready to pick him with their choice in the 4th. Sorry if that gets in the way of your slamming the team.

Can you give me examples of the draft "reaches" who fit #5 and #8

And I like the Martin pick, and I love the 7th round picks. So I'm not always "slamming the team" as your personal assumption states, but I guess you enjoy blankets that aren't cop outs.

But yes, some form of credibility is derived from having an opposing view sometimes, otherwise, its a fairly lemming approach - especially when viewed against a track record. And that is all facets of life - government, religion. And I give you credit for being consistent in your lack of touting the recent "trade-ups" - players aside. I agree trade-ups rarely cover the cost

 

[Chocolate Lab]

I have no idea. I am sure you already have your answer so why bother asking? This isn't something 'nice' as what he is saying is not a value judgment. A team either has interest and is prepared to draft or is not.

If you want to say that he is intentionally misleading us then fine but the innuendo is tiresome.

No, I don't know. You seem to be the btb expert, so why don't you tell us? What little I've read of btb, they are incredible homers so maybe birddog does say negative things from time to time but they don't post those. But the few birddog comments I remember over the last four years or so were basically all insider info that we were making nothing but great moves and we were heading in the right direction... Much like the claims of some around here. So forgive me if I'm a little skeptical.

But hey, if someone named rabblerouser vouches for him... I guess it's all golden.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Can you give me examples of the draft "reaches" who fit #5 and #8

And I like the Martin pick, and I love the 7th round picks. So I'm not always "slamming the team" as your personal assumption states, but I guess you enjoy blankets that aren't cop outs.

But yes, some form of credibility is derived from having an opposing view sometimes, otherwise, its a fairly lemming approach - especially when viewed against a track record. And that is all facets of life - government, religion. And I give you credit for being consistent in your lack of touting the recent "trade-ups" - players aside. I agree trade-ups rarely cover the cost

I could ask the same of you. Frederick comes to mind immediately.

 

[Dodger12]

Have fun pretending. Those that pay attention know better. There wasn't a bigger proponent of Travis Frederick on this board and this was.....before.....the Cowboys drafted him.

Get ready to be further annoyed. I even predicted he'd be on the all rookie team.

I remember you weren't a fan of the trade up but you pimped Claiborne as a player pretty hard as well. No one remembers that either I guess. I do. That black mark on your posting resume is going to linger for a while.......

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

No, I don't know. You seem to be the btb expert, so why don't you tell us? What little I've read of btb, they are incredible homers so maybe birddog does say negative things from time to time but they don't post those. But the few birddog comments I remember over the last four years or so were basically all insider info that we were making nothing but great moves and we were heading in the right direction... Much like the claims of some around here. So forgive me if I'm a little skeptical.

But hey, if someone named rabblerouser vouches for him... I guess it's all golden.

How about Ranier and Moore from DMN, Dane Brugler, Mike Fisher and a whole slew of other media/draft types that follow his twitter?

They all stupid homers to be discounted as well?

 

[TheDude]

Same rant as last year with Fred although you may not have....I don't keep that info handy as it is irrelevant.

The draft is a crap shoot. Can't fails....fail. UDFAs make people wonder what the heck were they thinking. The Blackmon's of the world fail despite more talent than most everyone. People get injured. Billy Cannon was going to be HOF IMO. Then he's out of the league. Many more just for Dallas.

You pays your dollar and takes your chance....as diligently as possible. We've actually done reasonably well esp having to pick for need and use picks for....need. It's hard to dig yourself out of a hole.

I dont see the 2 comparisons as close. First, I always tend to favor a trade down more than a tradeup. I liked the Fred pick, but Im sure I wasnt ecstatc when it came out that whole Floyd debacle. I loved the Martin pick but am highly critical that Jerry comes out and says JFB was #1 on the board. He would have been better served to jusst answer like Belichek -"We drafted the player we drafted "(10 times)

 

[JD_KaPow]

Well Fred was supposedly a reach and he worked out. I don't see how him being a bigger reach as a first rounder precludes him.

Fred was the consensus top center in the draft. Nobody doubted he belonged on a roster or was a likely eventual starter; it was just a debate about whether he belonged in the 2nd round or 3rd round. These guys Dallas takes in the 4th that are projected to go much later (or go undrafted) simply haven't worked out at all, and until one does, I'm not getting my hopes up.

Take a guy like Leary. You could find lots of assessments saying, "Plenty of talent, but health is a huge concern, and so he's a late-rounder/UDFA." Now look at a guy like Hitchens. I haven't seen a single evaluation that suggests he has more talent than a 7th-rounder/UDFA or more upside than a backup. To believe that he was a good 4th-round pick, I have to believe that the Cowboys (and all those teams that were "set to take him") have evaluations that are radically different AND much more accurate than all public sources. Based on draft history, I don't believe that. I'm certainly rooting for the player and hoping he proves all the doubters (including me) wrong. But I see no reason from his scouting reports, his measurables, or from Cowboys draft history to expect that.

 

[Dodger12]

smh. then you overestimate the talent one finds there. 4th rounders being projects is cliche. I think they could see him starting in the future but if you are thinking of more than a project I think that is an unreasonable expectation.

Then you over estimate the talent we have on this team. When a guy can come off the couch and immediately start, then I would expect a draft pick, even a late one, to be able to challenge for that position. And our DL is a wreck. I most certainly expect someone to immediately come in an earn some snaps. It's the reason why so many are all over Ben Gardner's jock.

 

[Risen Star]

I remember you weren't a fan of the trade up but you pimped Claiborne as a player pretty hard as well. No one remembers that either I guess. I do. That black mark on your posting resume is going to linger for a while.......

I thought as a cornerback he was a pretty good prospect, but I'd have cut off my right arm before making that trade.

 

[TheDude]

Of course none of it will be proven. You are making quantitative statements about things that are not quantified. Seems a big waste of time to me absent any statisitcal analysis. You will go ahead and speak in those terms anyway.

I keep an open mind but asserting what I should be curious about is laughable I am not sure what uncovering talent to other teams really means anyway. Are you saying that they are more successful in late rounds or rather that they are not? You are assuming the conclusion of that is the case.

As to whether or not to take the guy at his word, it is easy to be nihilist when it is convenient. Thing is I know that the guy has access and I don't think he is a buffoon. A professional scout says that teams were interested and exactly why should I dismiss it? Oh yeah you don't have a basis you create stories and insert that for the truth.

I leave it at this - Seatlle reached for players this year, They also reached for Wilson and took flyers on Chancellor and Sherman in mid rounds. That makes them more impervious to reaches "now." I don't think Dallas has the same mid round reach track record.

Im not disparaging the guys word, Im saying misinformation and stories are floated and they become less reliable second or third, etc. hand. Look at Braodus and the Ealy trade up. Hopefully Seattle was going to take him in rd 4

 

[TheDude]

I could ask the same of you. Frederick comes to mind immediately.

Nowehere near the same scenario, but since you don't have an example to the original question.....

Fred was product of a trade down that potentially nabbed a #2 receiver as well in the 3rd. So yes The Fred + Williams was a good move and value. And the fact there was war room issues with Floyd and rankings, etc (well-documented) didn't change the ending talent win, but showed continued issues that always seems to come to light in this organization

 

[TheMarathonContinues]

Backup, special teamer appears to be his ceiling.

We are putting together quite a star studded group of players with our 4th round picks in recent years.

Well look at it this way......there were teams who thought Tony Romo and Tom Brady couldn't play in this league.....teams who thought Cameron Wake wasn't worthy of a draft pick and same goes for James Harrison. There are going to be some 1st round picks out of this league in the next 2 or 3 years. I think the point is, scouts see things in players. Reach or not. You grab the guy you want. Fredericks was a "reach" as well. I don't hear one single person complaining about him.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Same rant as last year with Fred although you may not have....I don't keep that info handy as it is irrelevant.

The draft is a crap shoot. Can't fails....fail. UDFAs make people wonder what the heck were they thinking. The Blackmon's of the world fail despite more talent than most everyone. People get injured. Billy Cannon was going to be HOF IMO. Then he's out of the league. Many more just for Dallas.

You pays your dollar and takes your chance....as diligently as possible. We've actually done reasonably well esp having to pick for need and use picks for....need. It's hard to dig yourself out of a hole.

I don't think it's the same rant. Nobody thought that FredBeard would not start. Most simply thought that either we took him too early or that we didn't get enough in trade or both.

This player, it seems that most believe he is not a starter but rather, a backup. That, at least to me, is a bit different. Of course, I think you also have to factor in the fact that it's a 4th round pick and not 1st round so that's a big difference in favor of the pick as well.