Some perspective on Free

[gimmesix]

I'm not trying to say he's the only cause of penalties, because he's far from it, but penalties have been an issue.

I won't disagree with that. Penalties have killed us at times and just absolutely wrecked drives.

We were tied for 13th overall in penalties this year (19th in total flags) and 16th in penalty yards. We were 11th in presnap penalties. We had no offensive linemen in the top 20 in penalties, and Free was our worst at 28th. He was 21st among offensive tackles.

However, we had the third-fewest in "beneficiary count," which I assume is penalties called against our opponents, and 30th in "beneficiary yards."

 

[gimmesix]

considering he was the 3rd worst OT in pressures and sacks.
and i think that includes LT also he is probably the worst RT.
his man beat him on the 1st move that resulted in 3 out of 4 of Dak's fumbles last year - to be exact 37.5% of Dak's turnovers in 2016 was Free.

I think the turnovers you posted are an example, too, of how stats can be a bit misleading.

Yes, it's absolutely true that three of Free's sacks accounted for 3 of Dak's 4 lost fumbles, but it's the fourth fumble I want to focus on for a minute. You posted a video of that fumble against Pittsburgh that showed Free beating his man, pushing him far past the pocket. However, it was Free's man who forced the fumble, which also goes down as a sack, because quick interior pressure was allowed, forcing Dak to hold on to the ball and flush to his left.

Neither that fumble nor the sack were really Free's fault on the play. Now, I'm sure there are other plays where Free got beat and Dak avoided trouble (I don't have numbers for the pressures he allowed), but we need to understand that stats don't tell the whole story. As I've said, Free's season shows that he was good on most plays, great on some and stunk on a few.

This is not the narrative being sold about him, which isn't fair. No one here is going to say he's great, but what many of us are saying is he's solid most of the time, which is why he's one of 64 starting tackles in the league. He infuriates all of us at times with his mistakes, and I'm not sure there is anyone who doesn't want him replaced with someone better, but even if the other 63 starting tackles are better than him, most of those are under contract, and the ones who aren't are going to want to be paid like All-Pros or have injury concerns.

 

[CowboyRoy]

This is exactly right. Free has a spot here because of all the snaps where he does his job, despite the fact he occasionally gets beat.

Free is a perfectly acceptable weak link on a line like the Cowboys. You cant have all pro's at every position on the line. Doesnt work in the cap era.

From what people have said he was the emotional leader of the line for all these years and the veteran stability. And its not like his salary broke the bank. If we can replace him with someone similar while maintaining 4 studs along side him, I would be more than happy.

 

[gimmesix]

No one here is going to say he's great, but what many of us are saying is he's solid most of the time, which is why he's one of 64 starting tackles in the league. He infuriates all of us at times with his mistakes, and I'm not sure there is anyone who doesn't want him replaced with someone better, but even if the other 63 starting tackles are better than him, most of those are under contract, and the ones who aren't are going to want to be paid like All-Pros or have injury concerns.

Just to illustrate this, I've looked at the free agents tackles available.

According to BAN-INCOMING-IN-3-2-1, the top one is LT Andrew Whitworth, who is 35. The second best is also a LT, Russell Okung, who has an extensive injury history.

Third is Ricky Wagner, who is 27 and seems to have come into his own. He is the obvious best choice, which means that teams will be bidding for his services. He'd be a great get, but his price tag is going to be higher than his value.

Next is another left tackle, Kelvin Beachum, who struggled coming off ACL surgery. Then, the second-best right tackle available, Riley Reiff, who is described as being "a pretty average blocker throughout his career."

 

[GhostOfPelluer]

I won't disagree with that. Penalties have killed us at times and just absolutely wrecked drives.

We were tied for 13th overall in penalties this year (19th in total flags) and 16th in penalty yards. We were 11th in presnap penalties. We had no offensive linemen in the top 20 in penalties, and Free was our worst at 28th. He was 21st among offensive tackles.

However, we had the third-fewest in "beneficiary count," which I assume is penalties called against our opponents, and 30th in "beneficiary yards."

To your point of beneficiary count, the most common types of penalties are offensive holding, false start, DPI and defensive holding - in that order.

Holding and false start are often the result of an offensive lineman dealing with a difficult defensive lineman. Especially holding - which is called nearly 3x as often as DPI. And since we run more than most teams, we shouldn't statistically draw a ton of DPI. Most defensive holding calls occur in coverage. So our weakness (DLine) and our propensity to run the ball on offense would logically lead to us being pretty low on the beneficiary count spectrum.

BTW- the penalty numbers I'm using are from 2015 - I couldn't find 2016 numbers. But I think it's reasonable to suggest the trends would be similar.

 

[Longboysfan]

Its fair to say that we all want Frees replacement sooner then later. But unless he retires, then we don't actually have a hole at RT. Every team has a Doug Free or 2 on their line. Hell the Giants went to the playoffs with what looked like an entire Oline of Doug Free level of serviceable starters on their line. sure they got bounced in the wild card round but you get my point. Between Free, Green, Cleary, and possibly a day 3 OT pick, we should be able to keep RT patched up for the season. Not to mention this years OT class is horrible. 2018 draft would be the year to look for his replacement early in the draft. Much better class.

Nice thought.

But the time is NOW for this team. Don't waste a year waiting on this position.
Not next year - NOW.

Get an improvement here NOW.

 

[gimmesix]

To your point of beneficiary count, the most common types of penalties are offensive holding, false start, DPI and defensive holding - in that order.

Holding and false start are often the result of an offensive lineman dealing with a difficult defensive lineman. Especially holding - which is called nearly 3x as often as DPI. And since we run more than most teams, we shouldn't statistically draw a ton of DPI. Most defensive holding calls occur in coverage. So our weakness (DLine) and our propensity to run the ball on offense would logically lead to us being pretty low on the beneficiary count spectrum.

BTW- the penalty numbers I'm using are from 2015 - I couldn't find 2016 numbers. But I think it's reasonable to suggest the trends would be similar.

I would think, though, that holding is called quite a bit more on pass plays than run plays, and since we run more, our offensive line should be called for holding less than more pass-happy teams, which isn't reflected in the beneficiary count.

In other words, we should draw fewer DPI calls but our opponents' holding calls should be higher, especially since they are called nearly 3x as often as DPI. The beneficiary count doesn't reflect that.

I guess it could, though, reflect our defensive line weakness (as you point out) since we don't have a lot of "difficult" linemen. Of course, the non-call against Irving still makes that stick in the craw.

 

[gimmesix]

Nice thought.

But the time is NOW for this team. Don't waste a year waiting on this position.
Not next year - NOW.

Get an improvement here NOW.

Would you do that at the expense of fixing the defense?

Replacing Free remains low on my list of priorities. If we fix the defense and also upgrade Free, I'm all for it, but I'd be surprised if we do that much. I certainly don't want to spend our first-round pick on a replacement when we have much greater needs on defense. In fact, I could live with a receiver being drafted in the first over a right tackle to replace Free (unless Free does choose to retire). We actually do have a hole at WR right now while some are trying to create one at RT.

 

[waldoputty]

that depends

Free was paid a LT salary for a long time.
A RT getting paid LT salary and being a worse and worse RT.
I doubt Free would have last even into 2016 in New England.

 

[pacboyX]

Just because he has been with us for so long and is instrumental in the development of this oline doesn't mean we shouldn't move on and upgrade position and team. Don't not act out of attachment. Just like needing to find Wittens replacement. He's getting old, will retire soon..doesnt mean the league or Cowboys should stop and retire.

 

[GhostOfPelluer]

I would think, though, that holding is called quite a bit more on pass plays than run plays, and since we run more, our offensive line should be called for holding less than more pass-happy teams, which isn't reflected in the beneficiary count.

In other words, we should draw fewer DPI calls but our opponents holding calls should be higher, especially since they are called near 3x as often as DPI. The beneficiary count doesn't reflect that.

I guess it could, though, reflect our defensive line weakness (as you point out) since we don't have a lot of "difficult" linemen. Of course, the non-call against Irving still makes that stick in the craw.

I'd guess if we had a better Dline we'd benefit from more holding calls.

The entire GB game from the penalty front sticks in my craw. There's no doubt our lackluster rep up front and Green Bay's rep as maybe the best pass blocking Oline in the league played into that. Refs can convince themselves that they are seeing something they have a preconceived notion to believe. At least that is the only logical explanation for some those non-calls.

 

[waldoputty]

I don't think it's unreasonable, and hope that I made it clear in my OP. I think it's more difficult than some believe.

I think, for example, if we kept Leary that Collins could turn out to be a better RT than Free. He seems to have good feet to handle the quickness and enough strength. However, it would likely take him time to get the footwork and technique down that is needed at the position. Also, tackles are on an island more than interior blockers, so any flaws he has would become exposed and good DEs would work to exploit those flaws.

I saw things in Green that make me think he could be better than Free, but teams also haven't had the chance to study him as much as Free so any flaws he has also would be diagnosed and attacked. Plus, there is simply the fact that he can't stay healthy.

So while we want to be better, there are questions whether either of these players would make us better. I still think it's worth the risk if it means we keep Leary because I believe he's a better guard than Free is a tackle.

The reasonable thing to do is to get a FA RT.
The obvious choice is Baltimore's Wagner.
He will cost money but since there are not many top D FAs to get.
Why not upgrade on the O where none of the RT or even LTs got franchised.
Since we have to cap flexibility to get 3 top D FAs, this would be trivial.

It would plug the biggest hole in the O.
A better RT would have likely eliminated 37.5% of Dak's turnovers last year.
Dak (and/or receiver) accounted for all his interceptions) so you are eliminating all the easy TOs.

For all of you who want to preach the New England way, here is the 1st chance to do it the Patriots way.
I doubt Free would have last even into 2016 season in New England.

 

[waldoputty]

.......and the other OL guys consider him to be their leader; a lot of respect there.

All these guys who claim the salary cap is the problem and we should do it the New England way.
Well, the New England way to deal with Free would have been good bye (how many years ago?)
Yes, he is a nice leader, make him a highly compensated coach who can unretire if something bad happens to the OL.

 

[viman96]

I like Free as a swing tackle. He has to be protected because you never know when he will be a liability. Blocking often slides to his side. Let him be the swing tackle for a 1-2 years.

 

[Nightman]

Replacing Free remains low on my list of priorities. If we fix the defense and also upgrade Free, I'm all for it, but I'd be surprised if we do that much. I certainly don't want to spend our first-round pick on a replacement when we have much greater needs on defense. In fact, I could live with a receiver being drafted in the first over a right tackle to replace Free (unless Free does choose to retire). We actually do have a hole at WR right now while some are trying to create one at RT.

CGreen and Cleary can do the same mediocre job Free has done, with a lot of help from Martin and TEs btw, for 1/10th the price........ I think CGreen can do even better ...... that 5m can directly help the defense like you suggest

 

[waldoputty]

I would think, though, that holding is called quite a bit more on pass plays than run plays, and since we run more, our offensive line should be called for holding less than more pass-happy teams, which isn't reflected in the beneficiary count.

In other words, we should draw fewer DPI calls but our opponents' holding calls should be higher, especially since they are called nearly 3x as often as DPI. The beneficiary count doesn't reflect that.

I guess it could, though, reflect our defensive line weakness (as you point out) since we don't have a lot of "difficult" linemen. Of course, the non-call against Irving still makes that stick in the craw.

Lots of DL get held.
Sometimes very badly.
To use the ref as an excuse not to improve is insane.

 

[GhostOfPelluer]

Lots of DL get held.
Sometimes very badly.
To use the ref as an excuse not to improve is insane.

To be fair I don't think anyone is using refs as an excuse not to improve

 

[waldoputty]

Free

Replacing Free remains low on my list of priorities. If we fix the defense and also upgrade Free, I'm all for it, but I'd be surprised if we do that much. I certainly don't want to spend our first-round pick on a replacement when we have much greater needs on defense. In fact, I could live with a receiver being drafted in the first over a right tackle to replace Free (unless Free does choose to retire). We actually do have a hole at WR right now while some are trying to create one at RT.

CGreen and Cleary can do the same mediocre job Free has done, with a lot of help from Martin and TEs btw, for 1/10th the price........ I think CGreen can do even better ...... that 5m can directly help the defense like you suggest[/QUOTE]

If all the war daddies are franchised and we cannot get Perry, why not fixed the O by FA, and dedicate the entire draft to trade up for getting DE and CB? You could just resign Carr and Wilcox.
Sign Pryor and Wagner and eliminate every hole in the O.

Forget the value system and just keep trading up the 1st round and 2nd round picks as much as you can?
So we could nail CB and DE worth drafting.

 

[waving monkey]

Free was paid a LT salary for a long time.
A RT getting paid LT salary and being a worse and worse RT.
I doubt Free would have last even into 2016 in New England.

Is Emmit Cleary his replacement? they like him I heard but is he ready. Green Mr.IR ?
You want to go after a FA I know. Who?

Edit; you say Green can do the same injured job that Free has done? I thought you were a facts man. Green has talent when not injured.

 

[waldoputty]

I like Free as a swing tackle. He has to be protected because you never know when he will be a liability. Blocking often slides to his side. Let him be the swing tackle for a 1-2 years.

That salary would be better used to sign a proper RT.