Sean Lee = Opposite of the modern-day ring brats of the NBA

[408Cowboy]

1. It adds context for #52.

2. I'm not wrong to post something you were right about... and why that would be offensive to you is a very curious thing.

3. What can I say. You were right the second time, ie the time you posted #50.

I'm a lifelong Atlanta Hawks fan. But more importantly, I'm a lifelong believer in some basic principles of integrity. I don't like seeing the game manipulated for some ring-brats to add to their legacy. Charles Barkley is a great example of a great player who today can hold his head higher than a guy who subverted his own integrity in order to take a short-cut to get what Charles didn't get.

You have a very holier than thou thing going on in this thread.

Yeah. You got me good.

But that doesn't mean you were wrong to say what you said in #50.

And there's the ego I mentioned in full view. Preventing you from seeing the implications in my last post. I "got you good" is merely a subconscious reply to mask the fact that you don't. Unless it is a conscious effort to disregard it? Either way you are very easy to read and get whatever reaction I desire.

 

[_sturt_]

Pointless?... hehe... actually, given that the ring-brat-lovers have come out in droves... seems a pretty sharp, cutting point.

No, there is a difference in integrity when you're willing to take short-cuts and manipulate the system... Lee may have been able to leave his current team and go out in the marketplace and find himself a spot with a team that contended in 2018-19.

He didn't.

That's admirable.

 

[_sturt_]

You have a very holier than thou thing going on in this thread.

And there's the ego I mentioned in full view. Preventing you from seeing the implications in my last post. I "got you good" is merely a subconscious reply to mask the fact that you don't. Unless it is a conscious effort to disregard it? Either way you are very easy to read and get whatever reaction I desire.

When you can't argue with the substance?

Deflect to attacking the person arguing the substance.

Works every time. No one is the wiser.

 

[uvaballa]

I know basketball very, very well. Try me.

Now, in hindsight, I probably shouldn't have mentioned the money part because that seems to distract from the real point. But I think Lee could have made more money somewhere else, and have been promised a starting job... yes, there are teams that fill holes in FA hoping a veteran star player's injury history won't follow him. Happens all the time. Would NE have been one of those? Would LAR have been one of those? Would KC have been one of those? Would NO have been one of those? Maybe.

And/but your last sentence is correct.

And/but Charles Barkley deserves respect that Durant does not. He didn't take the easy way. He didn't manipulate things to make the ring happen for him. And as you imply, there's a legacy benefit to being able to say "I won a ring." But you won your ring by taking a shortcut. And for anyone who cares about integrity, that's a problem.

He is one of the ring brat brotherhood now.

I didn’t agree with the move but he didn’t cheat. He took less money and went to a loaded team. I think it’s kind of smart. I wish more football players would do that. Kind of like Brady not breaking the bank like he could (helps when your wife makes more than you).

Ware went to win a ring on another team and I have no problem with that.

 

[_sturt_]

I didn’t agree with the move but he didn’t cheat. He took less money and went to a loaded team. I think it’s kind of smart. I wish more football players would do that. Kind of like Brady not breaking the bank like he could (helps when your wife makes more than you).

Ware went to win a ring on another team and I have no problem with that.

He didn't cheat. Obviously.

He did manipulate, and take the easy way.

Guess it's just a matter of what one's standards are.

BTW.... no, don't play that game... Ware wasn't offered a contract here... and the team he went to wasn't the loaded team that was on the cusp of dynasty status as it already was.

 

[uvaballa]

He didn't cheat. Obviously.

He did manipulate, and take the easy way.

Guess it's just a matter of what one's standards are.

BTW.... no, don't play that game... Ware wasn't offered a contract here... and the team he went to wasn't the loaded team that was on the cusp of dynasty status as it already was.

Guys go to the “good” teams every year. Ware went to a place he thought he could win. If I remember correctly a few teams offered him more money than Denver.

All players want to win some are just willing to take less for that and others aren’t. I don’t fault them either way. Get all the money they deserve is my point of view especially for football players since the contracts aren’t guaranteed. I’m not mad at veterans who go and sign with a team like the Pats because they want to win.

 

[408Cowboy]

When you can't argue with the substance?

Deflect to attacking the person arguing the substance.

Works every time. No one is the wiser.

I'm not attacking anybody just offering insight into what I see. There's no need to get defensive about it.

Maybe this thread would've gone over better if you used players that went to the Patriots for a ring as an example instead of NBA players? More of an apples to apples comparison. Allowing people that don't know as much about the NBA to chime in and offer opinions.

 

[_sturt_]

Guys go to the “good” teams every year. Ware went to a place he thought he could win. If I remember correctly a few teams offered him more money than Denver.

All players want to win some are just willing to take less for that and others aren’t. I don’t fault them either way. Get all the money they deserve is my point of view especially for football players since the contracts aren’t guaranteed. I’m not mad at veterans who go and sign with a team like the Pats because they want to win.

I'm not seeing that any of this disagrees with what I just said... is it supposed to?

 

[408Cowboy]

Pointless?... hehe... actually, given that the ring-brat-lovers have come out in droves... seems a pretty sharp, cutting point.

No, there is a difference in integrity when you're willing to take short-cuts and manipulate the system... Lee may have been able to leave his current team and go out in the marketplace and find himself a spot with a team that contended in 2018-19.

He didn't.

That's admirable.

I'm curious if you will be starting a thread about the owners integrity? The contracts and salary cap are set up in a way that allows them to manipulate the system if they choose to maximize it's potential. Some do it by creating cap and loading up for a SB run even if they can't possibly repeat after due to having to cut players just to get back under it. Where do you view their integrity and loyalty to the players that won the title for their franchise?

 

[_sturt_]

I'm not attacking anybody just offering insight into what I see. There's no need to get defensive about it.

Maybe this thread would've gone over better if you used players that went to the Patriots for a ring as an example instead of NBA players? More of an apples to apples comparison. Allowing people that don't know as much about the NBA to chime in and offer opinions.

Well, first, I think it's went swell. We now have some basis for understanding where individuals' standards lie.

Second, when someone decides they want to focus on the person arguing the substance rather than the substance itself, that's its own revealing statement about the person "offering insight"... and the lack of any other way to attempt to counter the original substance.

 

[_sturt_]

I'm curious if you will be starting a thread about the owners integrity? The contracts and salary cap are set up in a way that allows them to manipulate the system if they choose to maximize it's potential. Some do it by creating cap and loading up for a SB run even if they can't possibly repeat after due to having to cut players just to get back under it. Where do you view their integrity and loyalty to the players that won the title for their franchise?

We can have that discussion, but surely you're intelligent enough to recognize that from the git-go, it's a very different discussion... ie, that the "owners" aren't trying to win a championship... rather an individual owner tries to win a championship.

I'm not interested in diverting into that here... too different a conversation. But yeah... I'm always interested in integrity in sports in general. It matters to me. It matters to a lot of us. It should matter to all of us. It doesn't.

 

[408Cowboy]

Well, first, I think it's went swell. We now have some basis for understanding where individuals' standards lie.

Second, when someone decides they want to focus on the person arguing the substance rather than the substance itself, that's it's own revealing statement about the person "offering insight"... and the lack of any other way to attempt to counter the original substance.

Not really. Human nature is something I'm simply a fan of and just happen to enjoy exploring it. Simple as that. You can take it however you choose.

 

[_sturt_]

And integrity is something I'm a fan of and something I happen to enjoy exploring... and finding. Take that however you choose.

 

[408Cowboy]

We can have that discussion, but surely you're intelligent enough to recognize that from the git-go, it's a very different discussion... ie, that the "owners" aren't trying to win a championship... rather an individual owner tries to win a championship.

I'm not interested in diverting into that here... too different a conversation. But yeah... I'm always interested in integrity in sports in general. It matters to me. It matters to a lot of us. It should matter to all of us. It doesn't.

My question has relevance. If the owners show a certain level of loyalty to the players should the players in turn be expected to have anymore for them than they receive? This is a business and it can be a cutthroat one at that. Owners have no problem moving on from players as soon as they are viewed as not being worth the investment. The players know it. The fans know it. You can tell who wants a ring by who is willing to sign with whoever they feel gives them the best option. On the flip side you know who values the paycheck more by the players that jump to the highest bidder regardless of how far they may be from a title. I prefer the players that are driven to win more than the ones that are driven by monetary gains.

 

[_sturt_]

Your question has relevance, but only relevance... it's a different conversation for the reason I already gave.

I find taking short-cuts to winning a ring abhorrent. And I take ignoring that these guys are all about opportunistically framing their legacy to be equally abhorrent. In both cases because integrity should matter.

 

[dckid]

http://www.espn.com/blog/dallas-cow...ng-with-cowboys-to-chase-after-a-championship

It's so refreshing to see a guy TAKE LESS money and STAY with his team in order to chase a championship.

Eat your heart out Durant... LBJ... Wade... Bosh.

Sean Lee, the anti-ring-brat.

This post is dripping with outright tones of stuff I cant say because some crybaby will be like "ban him". Cant compare NBA & NFL, different sports.
Make a better reference sir.

 

[Roadtrip635]

I know basketball very, very well. Try me.

Now, in hindsight, I probably shouldn't have mentioned the money part because that seems to distract from the real point. But I think Lee could have made more money somewhere else, and have been promised a starting job... yes, there are teams that fill holes in FA hoping a veteran star player's injury history won't follow him. Happens all the time. Would NE have been one of those? Would LAR have been one of those? Would KC have been one of those? Would NO have been one of those? Maybe.

And/but your last sentence is correct.

And/but Charles Barkley deserves respect that Durant does not. He didn't take the easy way. He didn't manipulate things to make the ring happen for him. And as you imply, there's a legacy benefit to being able to say "I won a ring." But you won your ring by taking a shortcut. And for anyone who cares about integrity, that's a problem.

He is one of the ring brat brotherhood now.

Charles Barkley was a "ring brat", he just wasn't successful at it. He demanded a trade and was moved to Phoenix, then joined the Rockets that were only a season removed from back to back championships. He tried "manipulating" his way to a ring too, he moved to teams that he thought could beat Jordan and the Bulls, kinda like KD moved to a team he thought could beat LeBron.

 

[_sturt_]

Cant compare NBA & NFL, different sports.
Make a better reference sir.

You really think after 7 pages of posts, you're the first to suggest that, and that no counterpoints have been made to the contrary.

Okay.

 

[408Cowboy]

Your question has relevance, but only relevance... it's a different conversation for the reason I already gave.

I find taking short-cuts to winning a ring abhorrent. And I take ignoring that these guys are all about opportunistically framing their legacy to be equally abhorrent. In both cases because integrity should matter.

Okay so teams that load up on high priced FA for what may amount to be no more than one title and are forced to cut players after without honoring the contract would be opportunistic and abhorrent? According to what you posted they only want to line the trophy case. Correct?

My point is integrity and loyalty in a business of this nature cuts both ways. It is rather short-sighted to expect the players loyalty to the team that drafted them to exceed that of the owner. I don't think you are accounting for the fact that winning a SB has been a lifelong dream for these guys either. It's natural for there to be some that are willing to do what they deem necessary to satiate that hunger. Simply put when the owners start honoring contracts for the length of them I'll expect the players to no longer demand an extension, raises, trades, or anything of that nature.

 

[_sturt_]

Charles Barkley was a "ring brat", he just wasn't successful at it. He demanded a trade and was moved to Phoenix, then joined the Rockets that were only a season removed from back to back championships. He tried "manipulating" his way to a ring too, he moved to teams that he thought could beat Jordan and the Bulls, kinda like KD moved to a team he thought could beat LeBron.

I'm not here to defend Charles Barkley necessarily, but he's become the poster child for what Durant doesn't want to be, so I've cited his name and his career.

If Barkley had moved to play with Olajuwon and Drexler when they were 29 or 30 or 31, and had just won back-to-back championships, you might have a point.

They were both 34. And there's a reason they were a season removed from winning a championship. That franchise had returned to earth.

Tell me that's the same thing as what Durant has done. Try to see if you can sell that. It will be entertaining to watch.