Sean Lee = Opposite of the modern-day ring brats of the NBA

[_sturt_]

Okay so teams that load up on high priced FA for what may amount to be no more than one title and are forced to cut players after without honoring the contract would be opportunistic and abhorrent? According to what you posted they only want to line the trophy case. Correct?

My point is integrity and loyalty in a business of this nature cuts both ways. It is rather short-sighted to expect the players loyalty to the team that drafted them to exceed that of the owner. I don't think you are accounting for the fact that winning a SB has been a lifelong dream for these guys either. It's natural for there to be some that are willing to do what they deem necessary to satiate that hunger. Simply put when the owners start honoring contracts for the length of them I'll expect the players to no longer demand an extension, raises, trades, or anything of that nature.

Start a new post. I'm interested. Just not in detouring here.

 

[_sturt_]

Hey Sean Lee!...

 

[408Cowboy]

Start a new post. I'm interested. Just not in detouring here.

No detour. They go hand in hand quite well.

Loyalty is something that is earned and maintained as long as it is reciprocated. Continually attempting to dismiss it as if it were a new concept doesn't change the inherent nature of it. Failing to take the sum of all parts into account shows a degree of naivete on the subject. Considering the lengths you've gone through expressing this subject I find that rather hard to believe. Bottom line it is morally unfair to hold players to such high standards while not applying said standards to everyone involved. Ergo my loyalty will go so far as the loyalty I am shown in return. Once that is gone or diminishes my loyalty to whomever will follow suit accordingly. It's just like children are taught in kindergarten you treat others the way you want to be treated. You can't lose integrity when you use the system the way it is designed to use you. It cuts both ways.

 

[Roadtrip635]

I'm not here to defend Charles Barkley necessarily, but he's become the poster child for what Durant doesn't want to be, so I've cited his name and his career.

If Barkley had moved to play with Olajuwon and Drexler when they were 29 or 30 or 31, and had just won back-to-back championships, you might have a point.

They were both 34. And there's a reason they were a season removed from winning a championship. That franchise had returned to earth.

Tell me that's the same thing as what Durant has done. Try to see if you can sell that. It will be entertaining to watch.

When he was young, he forced his way out of Philly, KD didn't force his way out, he waited until he was a FA. Barkley helped take the Suns to a Finals, but then was bounced out the next 2 years by the Rockets. Instead of staying he chose to go to a team that he thought had the best chance at a ring, the team that just beat them in the playoffs 2 of the last 3 years. The Rockets were only a season removed from back to back championships, not exactly a long time. Charles did what he could in chasing a ring, the only difference between him and KD is that KD was more successful at it.

I'm not a fan of the NBA super team approach, but it was happening before LeBron and KD. Barkley tried that in joining the Rockets, the Celtics won their last titles doing that, the Lakers, etc.

 

[_sturt_]

@408Cowboy , I have to confess, I'm a little slow, but give me credit, I do catch on eventually.

So, no, I'm not going to get diverted into a discussion about the legitimacy of the personal "insights" as you prefer to call them.

And now that I suppose you realize that I'm not...

No, I'm not going to get diverted into a relevant but different discussion about owners and integrity.

The intent and substance of THIS thread is what it is. Anyone who wants to discuss that, great. Anyone who wants to discuss something else, you have that right, but I also have every right to not.

And for a second time, if you genuinely and sincerely are interested in that discussion and not just as a diversionary tactic, I'm unaware of why you wouldn't go ahead and start that thread.

If.

 

[_sturt_]

When he was young, he forced his way out of Philly, KD didn't force his way out, he waited until he was a FA. Barkley helped take the Suns to a Finals, but then was bounced out the next 2 years by the Rockets. Instead of staying he chose to go to a team that he thought had the best chance at a ring, the team that just beat them in the playoffs 2 of the last 3 years. The Rockets were only a season removed from back to back championships, not exactly a long time. Charles did what he could in chasing a ring, the only difference between him and KD is that KD was more successful at it.

I'm not a fan of the NBA super team approach, but it was happening before LeBron and KD. Barkley tried that in joining the Rockets, the Celtics won their last titles doing that, the Lakers, etc.

*sigh*

1. Forcing a trade, by definition, means that there was a third party in the venture, and the entire episode was not one that could be orchestrated/manipulated by the player and the team benefiting from his coming to them... something had to be given up in exchange that his then-team (Sixers) considered valuable.

So, no. That's not anything like Durant to GSW.

2. No, the Rockets at that point weren't anything like the Warriors when Durant signed. If you could make any two of Curry, Thompson or Green 34 years old, maybe... and one year beyond their last championship.

So, no. That's not anything like Durant to GSW.

3. No player or set of players have ever manipulated the system to get a ring in the way that Durant, LBJ, Bosh and Wade have. Or, now that it's been brought up, David West.

Ever.

And continuing to try to bring this back to at least half of what the real topic here is...

Sean Lee is to be admired.

 

[408Cowboy]

It's a simple point of where you set your standards.

Your refusal to view the league as a whole and apply your moral code equally among all parties involved says enough.

Next time I comment in one of your threads I will refrain from expanding the subject matter for you.

 

[_sturt_]

Refusal?

Nonsense.

I've told you I'm happy to participate in that thread.

Test me and see.

That you've now refused multiple times to start a thread about something you supposedly find to be of incredibly larger importance is yet another curiosity. Or, maybe not so much a curiosity as a statement.

 

[HungryLion]

NBA players make more money if they stay with their original team.

Why are they being criticized for taking less money to go to a team where they can win games?

Stupid argument.

 

[_sturt_]

Shallow response to an apparently shallowly-understood argument.

 

[Roadtrip635]

*sigh*

1. Forcing a trade, by definition, means that there was a third party in the venture, and the entire episode was not one that could be orchestrated/manipulated by the player and the team benefiting from his coming to them... something had to be given up in exchange that his then-team (Sixers) considered valuable.

So, no. That's not anything like Durant to GSW.

2. No, the Rockets at that point weren't anything like the Warriors when Durant signed. If you could make any two of Curry, Thompson or Green 34 years old, maybe... and one year beyond their last championship.

So, no. That's not anything like Durant to GSW.

3. No player or set of players have ever manipulated the system to get a ring in the way that Durant, LBJ, Bosh and Wade have. Or, now that it's been brought up, David West.

Ever.

And continuing to try to bring this back to at least half of what the real topic here is...

Sean Lee is to be admired.

Barkley forced his way out of Philly, not quite as badly as Kawhi did with SA, but he continually and publicly stated he wanted to be traded and did not want to play in Philly. There doesn't have to be a 3rd party in place prior to force a deal, just one disgruntled individual. Philly was in effect forced to make a trade to at least salvage some worth and not have the team discord for another season. Barkley would have done the same thing at a younger age had the opportunity been present as KD. The timing is what made the KD signing unique and possible. The huge cap increase that season made that move possible, even if KD didn't get a "max" contract, the amount was still enough to make that decision.

Ray Allen, Garnett and Pierce did a similar move that the Heatles later did, they just didn't do it with their own TV show.

David West? Players, particularly stars on the back end of their careers, have joined contenders to chase rings in every sport. Malone and Gary Payton joined the Lakers, Robert Horry joined just about every contender, Kosar and Deion joined the Cowboys, etc.

The only difference is some were successful doing it.

Sean Lee's sound byte sounds good and makes for a nice story, but in reality he didn't have many other options. He was not going to make any more money on the open market that he could make here, even after the reworked contract and he's not a difference maker because of age and injury history that another serious contender like the Rams, Chiefs, Pats or Saints would have rushed to go and sign. The Cowboys have just as good a shot as any other outside of those top 4 to go to a SuperBowl, so it made the decision easy. At least with the Cowboys they will manage his reps in the off-season and try to keep him healthy, he wouldn't and couldn't get that same treatment on a new team with a new defense and teammates to adjust to.

 

[_sturt_]

Refusal?

Nonsense.

I've told you I'm happy to participate in that thread.

Test me and see.

That you've now refused multiple times to start a thread about something you supposedly find to be of incredibly larger importance is yet another curiosity. Or, maybe not so much a curiosity as a statement.

Statement heard loud and clear.

Well, if you won't, I say why not... link: About integrity of owners and players where it concerns manipulation to achieve a ring

 

[_sturt_]

Barkley forced his way out of Philly, not quite as badly as Kawhi did with SA, but he continually and publicly stated he wanted to be traded and did not want to play in Philly. There doesn't have to be a 3rd party in place prior to force a deal, just one disgruntled individual. Philly was in effect forced to make a trade to at least salvage some worth and not have the team discord for another season.

Pardon me, but you miss the point... or avoid it, I'm not sure.

GSW added talent. Any talent they subtracted was not a matter of satisfying OKC.

Ray Allen, Garnett and Pierce did a similar move that the Heatles later did, they just didn't do it with their own TV show.

But no. It wasn't similar. Boston gave up assets for Garnett to MIN, and for Allen to SEA. Pierce was already there.

I take nothing away from anyone involved in that. Garnett didn't just make himself a Celtic, nor did Allen. Three different teams had to be satisfied that they were getting some value in return for what they were giving up. I despise Ainge, and if I'm to be criticized for being jealous, it's that I'm jealous that he's been so good over the years at keeping that team so competitive... and back then, that he was able to put together a deal that catapulted BOS to the top.

That's doing things the right way. (But don't tell Ainge I said even that much complimentary about him. I'm a Hawks fan. We've had our differences with Ainge ever since he left college.)

David West? Players, particularly stars on the back end of their careers, have joined contenders to chase rings in every sport. Malone and Gary Payton joined the Lakers, Robert Horry joined just about every contender, Kosar and Deion joined the Cowboys, etc.

It's true that it's less consequential from a matter of impact for GSW to get a David West, so the greater transgression against his own integrity lies with the players who are so elite that their presence decidedly tips the scales.

So, I have to agree to that much.

And so, yes, where that matters to this conversation.... it's not like Sean Lee might have been tempted to leave to go to NE or LAR or KC or NO, under the premise that his presence alone was going to make some team already at the top an almost insurmountable threat for next season.

And yet... it's still to his credit, imo, that he chose not to take a shorter-cut by signing on with a team that is considered to be a greater threat than the only team he's ever known.

I started this thread to call attention and appreciate that... and putting it in some context of how other professional athletes have recently thought about that.

 

[Roadtrip635]

Pardon me, but you miss the point... or avoid it, I'm not sure.

GSW added talent. Any talent they subtracted was not a matter of satisfying OKC.



But no. It wasn't similar. Boston gave up assets for Garnett to MIN, and for Allen to SEA. Pierce was already there.

I take nothing away from anyone involved in that. Garnett didn't just make himself a Celtic, nor did Allen. Three different teams had to be satisfied that they were getting some value in return for what they were giving up. I despise Ainge, and if I'm to be criticized for being jealous, it's that I'm jealous that he's been so good over the years at keeping that team so competitive... and back then, that he was able to put together a deal that catapulted BOS to the top.

That's doing things the right way. (But don't tell Ainge I said even that much complimentary about him. I'm a Hawks fan. We've had our differences with Ainge ever since he left college.)



It's true that it's less consequential from a matter of impact for GSW to get a David West, so the greater transgression against his own integrity lies with the players who are so elite that their presence decidedly tips the scales.

So, I have to agree to that much.

And so, yes, where that matters to this conversation.... it's not like Sean Lee might have been tempted to leave to go to NE or LAR or KC or NO, under the premise that his presence alone was going to make some team already at the top an almost insurmountable threat for next season.

And yet... it's still to his credit, imo, that he chose not to take a shorter-cut by signing on with a team that is considered to be a greater threat than the only team he's ever known.

I started this thread to call attention and appreciate that... and putting it in some context of how other professional athletes have recently thought about that.

If one of those top 4 had expressed interest, especially LA or NE, we don't know if Lee would have declined the restructure to join them. Any other team would have been a more or less a lateral move. He's not the type of commodity that one of those 4 would have specifically sought out, more than likely. If his first love Steelers weren't a dumpster fire right now, he may have thought about taking the cut and trying to sign with them. His speech is the basic PC type talk. I'm sure it was genuine, but the outcome may have been very different with more options and opportunities to him.

 

[_sturt_]

If one of those top 4 had expressed interest, especially LA or NE, we don't know if Lee would have declined the restructure to join them.

Granted, I assume he would have had opportunities with one of those 4 if he'd left.

Granted, we don't know that he would have.

Granted, we don't know that he wouldn't have.

What we know is, he wasn't interested enough to find out.

 

[CowboysBravesSpurs]

The hate for Lee is pathetic. Only dumb cowboys wouldnt want him back for cheap. I'll never understand why people hate on older players. Guy put his body on the line, made pro bowls,.all pros, coached up jaylon and LVE. You people wanna hate him now that you have a new shiny toy in LVE? Its actually pathetic.