News: PFT: Ezekiel Elliott has privately said that he's planning a training-camp holdout

[Future]

You are wrong. I am reading, I just don't agree. There is a clear difference. Suggesting something that is an impossibility is not a solution. In fact, it's the exact opposite of that.

But I see your answer, you are saying that it is possible that Veteran players would vote for Rookies to get paid more then they, themselves can in their rookie years. That's what you are suggesting by saying "Yes, it is possible", just not right now, is that correct? Is that what you are saying? If it is, then we are in complete disagreement. That is never, ever going to happen. Please explain to me under what circumstances that vote happens.

Lastly, while I don't believe the cap is going anywhere, I agree with you that I would rather see the cap go away and teams go back to the way it was years ago but that, IMO, is not going to happen either. Chances are better of that IMO but it's just slightly more likely.

Yell if it makes you feel better but you are still wrong and it's not the fact that I am not listening. It's that you are simply incorrect and no matter how much INTERNET YELLING takes place, we will still be in the same place at the end of the day. It's not that I am not listing. It's the fact that I don't agree.

You are grossly misrepresenting what I said and, no, I'm not wrong.

Yes, that is possible that the rookie cap goes away in the next CBA, but it is impractical and unlikely. Which I have maintained that rookie contract players' only course of action is a hold out. It's why I also said that Zeke holding out AND contributing to the next CBA do not have to be mutually exclusive. The circumstances it happens is when the crop of players who are right now grossly underpaid because they are on rookie deals chooses to put a stop to it, and veterans realize that they aren't getting a bigger share (see safeties and RBs). Is that likely, no, but it's not some ridiculous theory that you want it to be.

 

[Cattle_Rancher]

I agree, players can and do use offseason training to come in more prepared but I've seen this out of Zeke. He comes to camp and he needs the work. He isn't a guy that comes in in top physical forum, or at least I've never seen that. There are also things that you can't simulate or train for in an Off Season workout. You gotta get that in camp or in practice. The other thing is that once you are in the season, you don't have a lot of time. It's a situation where everything becomes harder because if you are spending time to work with Zeke, you are taking time away from other areas of the team that need the attention. Nothing good about holding out, which is why he is using it as a tool.

Oh I agree it’s not good to hold out but I just don’t see it as leverage over the team. For one EE hasn’t made that much money and while I may be wrong he just doesn’t come across as someone who is financially responsible so when the fines start coming in plus the mess in Vegas he going to be hurting for cash. If he misses time and looks like garbage in season or gets injured it’s going to drive down his value. There is also the chance one of the other RBs pulls a Dak and just balls out and the Cowboys do EE like Romo.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

You are grossly misrepresenting what I said and, no, I'm not wrong.

Yes, that is possible that the rookie cap goes away in the next CBA, but it is impractical and unlikely. Which I have maintained that rookie contract players' only course of action is a hold out. It's why I also said that Zeke holding out AND contributing to the next CBA do not have to be mutually exclusive. The circumstances it happens is when the crop of players who are right now grossly underpaid because they are on rookie deals chooses to put a stop to it, and veterans realize that they aren't getting a bigger share (see safeties and RBs). Is that likely, no, but it's not some ridiculous theory that you want it to be.

I am not misrepresenting what you said. It's in this thread for all to read so I encourage anybody who might think that I am not being factual, to go ahead and read the thread. I am not being unfair with you, but you are wrong. I don't expect you to see it but it's still true. You are wrong.

The fact that you say his only course of action is to hold out is also wrong. In fact, it's just further proof. Saying that Zeke is grossly underpaid is also wrong. He is not underpaid. In fact, he is very well paid for the position. What do you base that statement on?

You think I'm painting an unfair picture, very well. Lets go ahead and settle this once and for all. What is your solution, and before you answer, lets be clear here. I'm not asking for pie in the sky answers that are never going to happen. Answering with "get rid of the rookie cap" is example of that so don't answer with something like that. It's insulting to everyone's intelligence and to hear you yell over it when that is pointed out, is frankly, more insulting. So lets get to it, what's your solution to the problem because under the current situation, Zeke has been treated very fairly. I'm giving you the opportunity to show us how this can be resolved in a manner that is better all around.

Your show here. What do you think the better way to do it should have been?

 

[Future]

I am not misrepresenting what you said. It's in this thread for all to read so I encourage anybody who might think that I am not being factual, to go ahead and read the thread. I am not being unfair with you, but you are wrong. I don't expect you to see it but it's still true. You are wrong.

The fact that you say his only course of action is to hold out is also wrong. In fact, it's just further proof. Saying that Zeke is grossly underpaid is also wrong. He is not underpaid. In fact, he is very well paid for the position. What do you base that statement on?

You think I'm painting an unfair picture, very well. Lets go ahead and settle this once and for all. What is your solution, and before you answer, lets be clear here. I'm not asking for pie in the sky answers that are never going to happen. Answering with "get rid of the rookie cap" is example of that so don't answer with something like that. It's insulting to everyone's intelligence and to hear you yell over it when that is pointed out, is frankly, more insulting. So lets get to it, what's your solution to the problem because under the current situation, Zeke has been treated very fairly. I'm giving you the opportunity to show us how this can be resolved in a manner that is better all around.

Your show here. What do you think the better way to do it should have been?

I don't understand what I'm wrong about. If he wants to get paid more, his only option is to hold out.

Zeke is underpaid. He is the top (or 2 or 3) RB in the game and is paid well below that. He has an AAV lower than Jerrick McKinnon lol. If you don't fundamentally agree with that then...whatever.

Solution to what? Better way to do what? Assuming owners aren't just going to give raises when they have 3 years left of cost control on a player, there are two solutions to rookie contract players being underpaid - hold out or get rid of the rookie cap. That's it. There's literally no solution I can give you that you're not going to just discredit as being impossible, because you don't even think there's a problem. Would it help if we said Alvin Kamara, instead of Zeke? Should he really only be making $964k this year? Is that really accurate for his market rate?

 

[TwentyOne]

eyeroll....Because none of that is what I'm saying.

My point is that, in this context, Zeke's perspective is what matters, not yours on whether or not it's a good thing to hold out.

Thats your opinion. Not mine.

Go open a blog. But first better learn how to put your thinking in words.

Now leave me alone. I please you.

 

[Future]

Thats your opinion. Not mine..

Duhhhh

That's the whole point of discussion...

 

[TwentyOne]

Duhhhh

That's the whole point of discussion...

No.

You dont write about your opinion. You write like your telling facts. More of all you are very offensive in the way youo post.

I am too old for that kind of stuff. So please again, leave me alone. If you want to do yourself and the people surrounding you something good get yourself into a communication programm or something like that.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I don't understand what I'm wrong about. If he wants to get paid more, his only option is to hold out.

Zeke is underpaid. He is the top (or 2 or 3) RB in the game and is paid well below that. He has an AAV lower than Jerrick McKinnon lol. If you don't fundamentally agree with that then...whatever.

Solution to what? Better way to do what? Assuming owners aren't just going to give raises when they have 3 years left of cost control on a player, there are two solutions to rookie contract players being underpaid - hold out or get rid of the rookie cap. That's it. There's literally no solution I can give you that you're not going to just discredit as being impossible, because you don't even think there's a problem. Would it help if we said Alvin Kamara, instead of Zeke? Should he really only be making $964k this year? Is that really accurate for his market rate?

And what I'm saying is, that's not true. Now, could it be the case, yes. It could be the case because contractually, all the team is obligated to do is what is stated in the contract but let me ask you, why should he get paid more then what the team has guaranteed him?

Let Zeke go to another team and lets see what his numbers look like. This isn't a one sided conversation here. Zeke is where he is because he is running behind the best young talent in the NFL all along the NFL, and has his entire career. Let him go to the Jets and lets see what he can do.

It's odd to me that all you focus on is Zeke. What about the other players who are in the NFL? The cap deal helps all of them. What about all the guys who are not on their rookie deals? What about guys who are not 1st round picks? All of them enjoy a better situation because they see FA earlier and can negotiate a better deal earlier. The way it's set up definitely helps them. You bring up Alvin Kamara but no, it doesn't help because Zeke is not even close to Kamara in terms of contract. Zeke is not, and has never mad, a day in his NFL life, 964K. So no, it doesn't help because it's apples and oranges. But since you bring up Kamara, that should be a clear sign to you of why Zeke is not getting a Gurley deal and why that deal is such a stupid bad deal. A back like Kamara is getting paid what he is getting paid and yet, the Rams sign Gurley to the deal they did? That's just a bad deal and Kamara is why it's a bad deal.

Your Jerrick McKinnon thing is just wrong. I'm sorry but this is why we can't discuss this. I mean, seriously, Jerrick McKinnon? McKinnon's deal is basically a 11.7 Mil fully guaranteed deal, that's it. That's not yearly either, that's over the entire length of the contract. I mean seriously, that's not even in the same ball park as the deal Zeke got. I'd sign Zeke to that deal in the next hour if he could be in Jerry's office that quickly. You can't be serious with that example. I feel like you are yanking my chain now. It's best we just end this discussion because you are now just insulting my intelligence.

 

[MyFairLady]

In situations like this I can't help but think to myself "What would the Patriots do?"

 

[Future]

No.

You dont write about your opinion. You write like your telling facts. More of all you are very offensive in the way youo post.

I am too old for that kind of stuff. So please again, leave me alone. If you want to do yourself and the people surrounding you something good get yourself into a communication programm or something like that.

It is absolutely a fact that your opinion on whether or not breaking a contract is bad has nothing to do with the utility of Zeke - or any other player - choosing to hold out. I'm not offensive. I never said you're stupid, wrong, ignorant, or any of the other 20,000 terms that get thrown around here lol.

You're free to ignore me, and if you want me to "leave you alone," you can always stop responding.

 

[Future]

And what I'm saying is, that's not true. Now, could it be the case, yes. It could be the case because contractually, all the team is obligated to do is what is stated in the contract but let me ask you, why should he get paid more then what the team has guaranteed him?

Let Zeke go to another team and lets see what his numbers look like. This isn't a one sided conversation here. Zeke is where he is because he is running behind the best young talent in the NFL all along the NFL, and has his entire career. Let him go to the Jets and lets see what he can do.

It's odd to me that all you focus on is Zeke. What about the other players who are in the NFL? The cap deal helps all of them. What about all the guys who are not on their rookie deals? What about guys who are not 1st round picks? All of them enjoy a better situation because they see FA earlier and can negotiate a better deal earlier. The way it's set up definitely helps them. You bring up Alvin Kamara but no, it doesn't help because Zeke is not even close to Kamara in terms of contract. Zeke is not, and has never mad, a day in his NFL life, 964K. So no, it doesn't help because it's apples and oranges. But since you bring up Kamara, that should be a clear sign to you of why Zeke is not getting a Gurley deal and why that deal is such a stupid bad deal. A back like Kamara is getting paid what he is getting paid and yet, the Rams sign Gurley to the deal they did? That's just a bad deal and Kamara is why it's a bad deal.

Your Jerrick McKinnon thing is just wrong. I'm sorry but this is why we can't discuss this. I mean, seriously, Jerrick McKinnon? McKinnon's deal is basically a 11.7 Mil fully guaranteed deal, that's it. That's not yearly either, that's over the entire length of the contract. I mean seriously, that's not even in the same ball park as the deal Zeke got. I'd sign Zeke to that deal in the next hour if he could be in Jerry's office that quickly. You can't be serious with that example. I feel like you are yanking my chain now. It's best we just end this discussion because you are now just insulting my intelligence.

He's better than players making more money. It's very simple.

This is why I say you are misrepresenting what I said: I mentioned another player - Kamara. By AAV - which I specifically said - McKinnon makes more.

This post is too long to read and you simply didn't answer what I'm supposed to be trying to find a solution for.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

He's better than players making more money. It's very simple.

This is why I say you are misrepresenting what I said: I mentioned another player - Kamara. By AAV - which I specifically said - McKinnon makes more.

This post is too long to read and you simply didn't answer what I'm supposed to be trying to find a solution for.

Do me a favor and show me which players are making more then he is. I mean, do it factually thou. Talk about what is actually guaranteed fully. You can put any number you want in a contract but all that really counts is what is fully guaranteed. Do that and then lets talk.

 

[MyFairLady]

Zeke has every right to say that he is no longer willing to play under his current contract. It is then up to his employer to determine if it is worth while to rework his deal to his satisfaction. personally I would be OK with any of the following:

1. His current deal is basically a 4 year / 25 million dollar deal that is fully guaranteed with a 9 million dollar 5th year option. Agree to the 5th year / 9 million option and add 3 more years at 9 million per year. Basically a 4 year / 36 million dollar extension. Make half of it guaranteed as a signing bonus (18 million). Basically he signs his future contract early at a slightly reduced rate to get it done now.

2. Let him hold out. If he does not return fine him accordingly. Revisit next year.

3. Trade him for a first round draft pick provided the pick is projected to be near a top ten pick.

 

[JBond]

Doesn't matter. Players and their agents don't care about that - and they know that teams have pressure to pay their top players. SD can let Gordon walk because he's a replaceable talent. Zeke, in Dallas' offense, isn't. He knows that, his agent knows that, and the Joneses know that. Think Jerry doesn't remember the start of 1993?

This is why I said the NFLPA should step in.

Two things. First, Zeke is a mental midget. Second, he is just a RB. We can get another one. Let him hold out for two years for all I care.

 

[Future]

Do me a favor and show me which players are making more then he is. I mean, do it factually thou. Talk about what is actually guaranteed fully. You can put any number you want in a contract but all that really counts is what is fully guaranteed. Do that and then lets talk.

I did do it factually, you just don't like the number I used. Full guarantees is irrelevant for Zeke because he's already gotten most of it. What a player has already earned is irrelevant in the context of a holdout.

But just for fun, over the next two years he's guaranteed just $3.8 million. If you include the 5th-year option and prorated bonus, that's ~$17m. Le'Veon and Gurley are guaranteed $19m and $18m and with pro-rated bonuses are at ~$23m and ~$28m. Over the next two years, Zeke is only making 70% of what they are, not even including roster bonuses ($16m for Bell, $7.5m for Gurley). You're really going to tell me that Bell, who also has a 500k per game bonus, could make $40+m if he's healthy, and Zeke should just accept $13m? Good luck with that.

 

[MyFairLady]

Gotta say not a fan of the comparison to Emmett and 1993. Pretty sure if we were coming off a super bowl win I might feel differently.

 

[Future]

In situations like this I can't help but think to myself "What would the Patriots do?"

They'd never draft a RB #4, so we're already past that point lol.

 

[slick325]

The Pats drafted Sony Michel in the 1st round. Which tells me that they value the RB position. If Michel continues to play well and has half the numbers Zeke has...they will pay him. Especially if he is helping prolong the career of Brady or supporting a young QB who can't carry the team just yet.

So can we stop with the Pats stuff?

 

[RustyBourneHorse]

TWO YEARS left on his contract.

Unless he gives a sweet home town discount....at least 15% off the current top RB contract...then let him hold out. (Some may laugh, but that’s still damn good $$ with long term security.)

He should not even be thinking hold out at this point. Maybe 9 months from now.

Agreed completely

 

[bsbellomy]

If you want to go that direction, Zeke will need to get his checkbook out for all five guys along the front line. He may not have any money left at all.

Meh, La'el was subpar, Looney was average, we had a revolving door at RG, and both Martin and Tyron played well below their standard last year. I'd disagree with your assessment because he proved last year he could thrive behind average.