Don’t let the big names guide your thinking

gjkoeppen · Mar 23, 2020

CowboyRoy said:
Tom Brady won the SB last year bub. If anything, people need to stop doubting Brady.

Every guy has a price that makes sense. Although Dez is garbage.

Mathews is a guy that falls into your category as a good example.

Technically it was last year when Brady won the Super Bowl but it was TWO Super Bowls ago. As far as Brady goes with the patriots, his last pass for the patriots was a pick six.
.

buybuydandavis · Mar 23, 2020

big dog cowboy said:
Did you seriously just say Dez has high upside?

Did he suddenly grow a brain?
Did he suddenly become the athlete he used to be several years ago?
Did he suddenly learn how to run route and learn the route tree?
Did he suddenly not become a distraction and sideshow?

Sorry I just don't see it. The Cowboys can draft a WR on day 2 that would have a ton of upside, cost less than Dez, and not be the distraction Dez would be.

As I mentioned elsewhere, high upside *relative to likely cost*, which I would guess around 2mil.

People do grow up as they get older, particularly if they've been humbled.
He won't be the guy of 2014 again. But he was playing banged up for years, and still was our #1. Healed up, he can be a #3.
Supposedly he was doing route running training. Maybe he has. Even if he hasn't made much progress, he was an 8 year vet and an All Pro once. He was running something. I'm not talking All Pro. Or #1. Or #2. I'm talking #3.
Ha! You say that like Jerry doesn't like eyeballs.

With all the needs on defense, I don't see a day 2 pick at WR. Day 3, we're not getting a solution to much *this year*. Dez is a cheap older bridge veteran to keep the offense staffed with capable, experienced WRs. If it's not Dez, it will be some other vet.

noshame · Mar 23, 2020

I agree with Bob
Tom will hit the wall this year, and it's always sad. I enjoyed watching him

tm1119 · Mar 23, 2020

Bobhaze said:
One of the habits I see many fans here, and even many sports writers that cover the NFL fall into is this bad habit: Thinking a “big name” player- even just a player that they have heard of is a good acquisition.

We see it here all the time. Recommending we sign some “has been” guy who was good 5 years ago in their mid to late 20s but are a shadow of what they used to be. And they are often more expensive because of their prior fame and performance, yet past their ability to deliver the performance that justifies their pay.

Here are some recent examples of formerly good/great players that many overvalue because of their name recognition:

Dez Bryant- Having a 32 year old recent injury prone player is just a bad idea. If he were from another team, the calls to bring him back would be less. Emotional connection to a former player are strong. But you can still love Dez and what he did here without signing him.

Ndamukong Suh- He was once a dominant force who was worth the price tag. Now at 33, while still good, he’s no longer near dominant. But too many fans see his name and assume it would be nice to get a big name like that.

Tom Brady- he’s probably the GOAT. But he’s not what he used to be, and at 42, physical abilities can disappear almost instantly. Believing that Brady would be a good signing here was crazy to me because he’s a shadow of what he was and thinking he could “carry” a team now was shown to be not so evident in last year’s stretch run and playoffs. The bucs signed him for two years. I doubt he makes it that long.

Jadaveon Clowney- JC is actually still in his prime, but he’s not dominant enough IMO to match his price tag. His talent remains, but he’s never been consistent enough to match the pub he got from being the #1 pick in the draft in 2015. He’s a big name who still has game, but he’s not worth what he’s asking. Otherwise he would’ve already been signed.

Clay Matthews- once great. Too many miles on the treads. He turns 34 in May. Wouldn’t be surprised if he’s played his last NFL game.

This list could go on and on...every year.

Here’s the encouraging thing though- there are tons of talented young players (mostly in the draft) that most of us have never heard of that will be future All Pros or maybe even a HOFer or two. The future is NOT in the past. Our future stars will most likely not be former stars from somewhere else. They will be NEW stars here! Don’t let the big names fool you. Most big names that are still available right now are not signed for a reason.

Not overpaying big names makes sense...avoiding them doesn’t.

-Suh is still a better 1 tech than we have on the roster
-Brady is still playing at a high level (not that we ever were/should have been interested)
-Clowney is still a physical freak capable of dominating. Whatever he was asking for $ wise is irrelevant at this point, clearly there’s a limited market for him and we should absolutely be checking on the price
-And I assume you didn’t even bother to look up Clay Matthews? He had 8 sacks and 28 pressures in 13 games last year and you’re suggesting he hang up his cleats? Stick to your day job as not an agent.
-And Dez...yeah there’s probably nothing left there

At this point in free agency it’s about getting the best value, pretty much looking at 1 year deals for all these guys so the risk is minimal. You are doing the same with age as youre suggesting other people are doing with names. There’s a big picture with everything.

John813 · Mar 23, 2020

McCoy was a big name.
Why did they sign him?

Because he signed a team friendly deal. Same would go to Matthews, Clowney or another big name. If they are willing to sign a "honest" deal, they'll sign them, however, those players usually find a better offer.

Diehardblues · Mar 23, 2020

kskboys said:
Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't blame TB a bit. Even at his age, he's a huge upgrade over Winston if he can stay upright. However, this topic is about him being overrated because he's a big name. Most fans are overrating him at this point, which is in synch w/ the topic.

Yea, I realize Brady is a shell of his former self but agree he’s an upgrade and provides Bucs a potential uplift which could drive attendance and revenue. In that aspect he’s probably a good investment for Tampa meaning not overpaid.

The entertainment value comes into play as well as he could uplift them to a contender for playoffs. That’s why I’m arguing whether he’s being over paid. And doesn’t fit in this group.

Is he overpaid for his current talent level? That’s left to be seen. With the talent around him on offense could put up some big numbers if he can stay upright.

Diehardblues · Mar 23, 2020

John813 said:
McCoy was a big name.
Why did they sign him?

Because he signed a team friendly deal. Same would go to Matthews, Clowney or another big name. If they are willing to sign a "honest" deal, they'll sign them, however, those players usually find a better offer.

Right. And Clowney could end up signing a team friendly to remain at Seattle . He’s just testing the waters. Simple business.

And Brady’s deal was fairly conservative too for his big name.

It’s actually only 25 million a year ( 50 million guarantee over 2 years) with 9 million in incentives which makes him the 12th highest paid QB in NFL.

His salary this year is 15 million with 10 million signing bonus. Along with 4.5 million in incentives. Doesn’t sound over paid to me.
https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl...uccaneers-patriots/16poeaugkbcvx1dj2czlbgxvfj

GMO415 · Mar 23, 2020

We just got rid of Father Time Witt. Yes Hayes, let's not bring on more AARP card carrying players.

kskboys · Mar 23, 2020

johneric8 said:
Wrong, I'm asking him to stop telling other how to think.. I feel like he opens up good discussions, but I also feel like he has made up his mind and is forgetful of the past.

Yes, but in your statement, you are telling others how to think. It was amusing, though.

kskboys · Mar 23, 2020

johneric8 said:
Like I said man, I like your post, they're well written and thought out, but sometimes it seems like your content seems a little one sided in the sense that you've made your mind up about things. I don't feel like your post was set up for debate as much as it was to dictate. I'm normally pretty easy going about post of all kinds, but I think sometimes I see ones that get my goat a bit, not so much because it disagrees with my line of thinking, but more or less how it approaches it's conclusions. For every example you can give, I can give another. I believe you should be more trusting of coaches and fans when they feel like there might be some "Meat on the Bone" left

I get it though, lets don't get caught up in big names, lets look at where that player's head, body and mind is at TODAY. But what you purpose is to forget about these great talents and put your money on the rookies whom have yet to prove a thing in the nfl. Sure they're cheaper, but a risk is a risk. You pay a rookie the min and they suck no harm no foul, but on the flip side if you pass over on a talented vet whom kills it for another team (AKA Randy Moss) that was a risk you didn't take that could of costed you a super bowl. I still disagree with many in regards to Dez, instead of writing him off, lets see how it shakes out.

Even more amusing. You don't realize it, but you're doing the same thing you're accusing Bobs of doing.

Bobhaze · Mar 23, 2020

buybuydandavis said:
How would they know, without bringing him in? He's not a thousand years old. He's always been an athletic freak. He had a meh year as chronically injured #1 in his last year, but that's with meh WRs around him, and that's *as a #1*, not a #3.

I don't know how they could claim to know that 2 years later, but healthy, he couldn't be a good #3.

I believe the thinking is for most NFL teams, you don’t keep a 32 year old backup WR up on your roster who will literally only decline in ability. And even at the veteran minimum, he would cost more than most rookies with nothing but upside.

It would be different if Dez was still starter quality. But he’s not. There are some older WRs who can play as a starter well into their mid 30s as a starter, and at a high price tag. But #3 or #4 receivers? It makes no sense to keep an older, injury prone WR who would just keep a younger backup WR from developing.

Diehardblues · Mar 23, 2020

Bobhaze said:
I believe the thinking is for most NFL teams, you don’t keep a 32 year old backup WR up on your roster who will literally only decline in ability. And even at the veteran minimum, he would cost more than most rookies with nothing but upside.

It would be different if Dez was still starter quality. But he’s not. There are some older WRs who can play as a starter well into their mid 30s as a starter, and at a high price tag. But #3 or #4 receivers? It makes no sense to keep an older, injury prone WR who would just keep a younger backup WR from developing.

If that’s true then I’d agree. Not sure how we’d know though until seeing in Camp. Unless we have fans here who have already seen Dez in practice recently.

Bobhaze · Mar 23, 2020

johneric8 said:
Like I said man, I like your post, they're well written and thought out, but sometimes it seems like your content seems a little one sided in the sense that you've made your mind up about things. I don't feel like your post was set up for debate as much as it was to dictate. I'm normally pretty easy going about post of all kinds, but I think sometimes I see ones that get my goat a bit, not so much because it disagrees with my line of thinking, but more or less how it approaches it's conclusions. For every example you can give, I can give another. I believe you should be more trusting of coaches and fans when they feel like there might be some "Meat on the Bone" left

I get it though, lets don't get caught up in big names, lets look at where that player's head, body and mind is at TODAY. But what you purpose is to forget about these great talents and put your money on the rookies whom have yet to prove a thing in the nfl. Sure they're cheaper, but a risk is a risk. You pay a rookie the min and they suck no harm no foul, but on the flip side if you pass over on a talented vet whom kills it for another team (AKA Randy Moss) that was a risk you didn't take that could of costed you a super bowl. I still disagree with many in regards to Dez, instead of writing him off, lets see how it shakes out.

I 100% agree that my opinions are one sided- because they are my opinions. I’m wrong about my opinions all the time, and I think I can be right sometimes too. Doesn’t matter, they’re just opinions. It’s what makes this place fun.

I’m not offended in the least that you disagree with my opinion. I respect that you share yours. Opinions are what makes a forum. We don’t all have to agree on everything to enjoy being a Cowboys fan.

SteveTheCowboy · Mar 23, 2020

Bobhaze said:
One of the habits I see many fans here, and even many sports writers that cover the NFL fall into is this bad habit: Thinking a “big name” player- even just a player that they have heard of is a good acquisition.

We see it here all the time. Recommending we sign some “has been” guy who was good 5 years ago in their mid to late 20s but are a shadow of what they used to be. And they are often more expensive because of their prior fame and performance, yet past their ability to deliver the performance that justifies their pay.

Here are some recent examples of formerly good/great players that many overvalue because of their name recognition:

Tom Brady- he’s probably the GOAT. But he’s not what he used to be, and at 42, physical abilities can disappear almost instantly. Believing that Brady would be a good signing here was crazy to me because he’s a shadow of what he was and thinking he could “carry” a team now was shown to be not so evident in last year’s stretch run and playoffs. The bucs signed him for two years. I doubt he makes it that long.

SNIPPED for space and clarity! .

While I think Brady's "fall off" includes some age implications....I think some of it is also just a lack of interest, a rut if you will. I think a new team gives him a new challenge.
Not that I thought we needed him here....but a change of scene will do him good, me thinks.

Diehardblues · Mar 23, 2020

Even with Brady’s declining skills he would have cost us less than Dak this season.

And if we tag Dak again next year will cost even more.

Brady for basically 25 million a season is a good value in the right situation. Imagine him with this type of supporting cast.

Even if he went down with injury costing the season then we’d be in position to draft Trevor next year. And we could still draft a solid back/up QB this draft.

SteveTheCowboy · Mar 23, 2020

We can all spout our NFL fan feelings about Brady...but when the top receiver is happy.....then heck let's roll with it! And I don't buy the "what'd'ya expect him to say" thing. Evans isn't a tow the line guy.

"
"It's surreal, he's going to be my quarterback, bro," Evans said.

"I've played six years in the NFL and I haven't been to the playoffs yet.

"Tom Brady has won six Super Bowls."

The 26-year-old added: "Bro, I've been on that Hennessy, man.

"I'm drinking, I got Tom Brady, you know what I'm saying?"

Despite Tampa Bay's collective struggles, Evans has been a huge success with the Bucs."

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/mike-evans-elated-bucs-qb-141904440.html

Diehardblues · Mar 23, 2020

tm1119 said:
Not overpaying big names makes sense...avoiding them doesn’t.

-Suh is still a better 1 tech than we have on the roster
-Brady is still playing at a high level (not that we ever were/should have been interested)
-Clowney is still a physical freak capable of dominating. Whatever he was asking for $ wise is irrelevant at this point, clearly there’s a limited market for him and we should absolutely be checking on the price
-And I assume you didn’t even bother to look up Clay Matthews? He had 8 sacks and 28 pressures in 13 games last year and you’re suggesting he hang up his cleats? Stick to your day job as not an agent.
-And Dez...yeah there’s probably nothing left there

At this point in free agency it’s about getting the best value, pretty much looking at 1 year deals for all these guys so the risk is minimal. You are doing the same with age as youre suggesting other people are doing with names. There’s a big picture with everything.

And I think the bigger picture is winning now.

Diehardblues · Mar 23, 2020

Cowboy Lover said:
We can all spout our NFL fan feelings about Brady...but when the top receiver is happy.....then heck let's roll with it! And I don't buy the "what'd'ya expect him to say" thing. Evans isn't a tow the line guy.

"
"It's surreal, he's going to be my quarterback, bro," Evans said.

"I've played six years in the NFL and I haven't been to the playoffs yet.

"Tom Brady has won six Super Bowls."

The 26-year-old added: "Bro, I've been on that Hennessy, man.

"I'm drinking, I got Tom Brady, you know what I'm saying?"

Despite Tampa Bay's collective struggles, Evans has been a huge success with the Bucs."

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/mike-evans-elated-bucs-qb-141904440.html

We can’t even imagine how pumped Buc fans must be after missing playoffs 13 straight seasons.

Our window to win with this core of stars is narrow. And if this new HC doesn’t have some immediate success patience will grow thin.

I’d load up to win now if I was McCarthy. If he doesn’t take this team further in next couple years there is no future for him.

Diehardblues · Mar 23, 2020

gjkoeppen said:
Technically it was last year when Brady won the Super Bowl but it was TWO Super Bowls ago. As far as Brady goes with the patriots, his last pass for the patriots was a pick six.
.

Staubachs last pass with the Cowboys was to his own OL ending our hopes of a third straight SB appearance.

I have a feeling Patriot fans won’t hold Brady’s last pass as a lasting memory anymore than we do Roger’s.

It’s beginning to sound more and more by some fans here they are letting their personal feelings with Brady effect their better judgement.

This isn’t directed towards you but this thought spurred my reaction.

johneric8 · Mar 23, 2020

Bobhaze said:
I 100% agree that my opinions are one sided- because they are my opinions. I’m wrong about my opinions all the time, and I think I can be right sometimes too. Doesn’t matter, they’re just opinions. It’s what makes this place fun.

I’m not offended in the least that you disagree with my opinion. I respect that you share yours. Opinions are what makes a forum. We don’t all have to agree on everything to enjoy being a Cowboys fan.

I think what I'm saying here is, it's one thing to have an opinion, and present it in a way that it's a personal outlook, but let me give you analogy here real quick. I keep hearing that what I'm doing is the exact same thing when in fact it's not.
I'm saying that it's okay to be open minded, and you're saying we shouldn't be taking a chance on the "Has Been" guy, or players that are not that far removed from being dominant. Of course you have a right to that opinion, but your delivery is one that is too black and white.

The way you presented your opinion was like saying to someone whom enjoys tacos that they should eat more burritos. What I'm saying is we should be able to enjoy both. There is misunderstanding here, look at Tom Brady for example: The bucs are excited to have him in their lockeroom as well as most of their fans. By your analogy, you've determined already he is over the hill and done based on last year. If Brady gets the bucs far in the playoffs this would of been a gamble more than worth taking for them.

In terms of older players, I think the cowboys have been pretty smart on the type of veterans they've brought in for the money they've paid. I don't think any fans can be faulted for kicking the tired on a massively talented player if the terms are right.

Don’t let the big names guide your thinking

gjkoeppen

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buybuydandavis

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noshame

I'm not dead yet......

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