News: Rams slip past Cowboys in NFL Week 1 after questionable PI call

Creeper · Sep 14, 2020

I did not see what Chris Simms is talking about when I watch the video over and over. In fact, focus on Gallup's wrist and tell me if you see the movement in his write that would be indicative of a forceful pushoff. What you will see is Gallup extending his arm about 90% but not fully. Then you see separation, but that could also be because Ramsey let's go of Gallup's arm. But then the telltale sign comes, Ramsey's up body and arms move up as if he was pushed but it is clearly a delayed reaction to Gallup's motion. In full speed it is barely noticeable but in slow-mo it is very clear. Ramsey was faking the PI and the interview after the game he gives it away.

I don't think the Cowboys lost because of this call. But the refs and Simms are being disingenuous saying it was clear and it would be called every time. I see much worse contact than that not get called all the time.

The problem with these calls, just like the Dez Bryant no catch call, is they deprive the fans of a more exciting finish to the game.

John813 · Sep 14, 2020

if gallup sold his arm being held by Ramsey he may of gotten dpi. But he didn't and Ramsey sold off that "push off"

MarcusRock · Sep 14, 2020

Creeper said:
What you will see is Gallup extending his arm about 90% but not fully. Then you see separation, but that could also be because Ramsey let's go of Gallup's arm.

Where does the rulebook say 100% needs to be necessary. All they need to notice is if the action creates the separation. Gallup did clearly push and despite the acting job by Ramsey, it did effectively create separation. Ramsey also didn't have Gallup's arm locked up and Gallup could have done an underhanded swim move to free his other hand to get in position to make the catch like I mentioned in the other thread.

Ren · Sep 14, 2020

In some twisted way I kinda enjoy seeing McCathy, the guy who said Dez didn’t catch it now being upset over a bad call taking away a catch that could have potentially won us or at the very least tied the game.

Welcome to Dallas McCarthy, you got lucky in 14 and you know it

Creeper · Sep 14, 2020

MarcusRock said:
Where does the rulebook say 100% needs to be necessary. All they need to notice is if the action creates the separation. Gallup did clearly push and despite the acting job by Ramsey, it did effectively create separation. Ramsey also didn't have Gallup's arm locked up and Gallup could have done an underhanded swim move to free his other hand to get in position to make the catch like I mentioned in the other thread.

Yeah, we are not going to see this the same way, but clearly Ramsey has his arm inside Gallup's and is pushing against Gallup's bicep to try to keep him from getting his arm out in front of him. It hard to run full speed when you are pushing on a guys arm like that. It also slows Gallup down - and Ramsey too. My point is that this play is not obvious, is not called consistently and in most cases is not called at all. I am not faulting the refs from calling it. I fault them for the BS excuse and explanation after the game.

J-man · Sep 14, 2020

bs call against us, again.

Tass · Sep 14, 2020

It looks like PI to me.

In my book, DBs and WRs should never be touching each other past the five yard mark until the ball arrives. Call me old school or whatever but that's how I see it.

MarcusRock · Sep 14, 2020

Creeper said:
Yeah, we are not going to see this the same way, but clearly Ramsey has his arm inside Gallup's and is pushing against Gallup's bicep to try to keep him from getting his arm out in front of him. It hard to run full speed when you are pushing on a guys arm like that. It also slows Gallup down - and Ramsey too. My point is that this play is not obvious, is not called consistently and in most cases is not called at all. I am not faulting the refs from calling it. I fault them for the BS excuse and explanation after the game.

Well it's a judgment call so there are always going to be varying degrees of was that "enough of" a push off or a restriction. Same with holding and the verbiage "materially restrict an opponent." You have to draw the line somewhere and yes, different situations are going to be on the borderline and as much as the different crew chiefs are going to try to have the same standard, it's just not going to happen all the time. But this is a case where you "could" make a call and this official decided to.

aria · Sep 14, 2020

MarcusRock said:
Where does the rulebook say 100% needs to be necessary. All they need to notice is if the action creates the separation. Gallup did clearly push and despite the acting job by Ramsey, it did effectively create separation. Ramsey also didn't have Gallup's arm locked up and Gallup could have done an underhanded swim move to free his other hand to get in position to make the catch like I mentioned in the other thread.

Switch the players uniforms and it’s obvious offensive PI!

Cap12 · Sep 14, 2020

Tass said:
It looks like PI to me.

In my book, DBs and WRs should never be touching each other past the five yard mark until the ball arrives. Call me old school or whatever but that's how I see it.

Then who do you call the penalty on? Both players were hand-checking. There is no question that Ramsey was using his arm to try to pin Gallop's arm so he couldn't catch the ball. Happens all the time and commentators will refer to it as "good technique".I WR then uses his hands to impede the DB from doing this. It's called "hand-checking" and it happens all the time. Sometimes a DB can lose a step in this process and that's what happened here. When Ramsey realized he was beaten he "flopped" to make it look like Gallop had shoved his body to gain separation (when in reality, he lost the "hand-check" battle).

As I've mentioned in other threads, Ramsey's reaction was delayed and exaggerated. Replay at no time shows Gallop touching Ramsey's torso, which is what OPI is virtually always called for (not "hand-checking"). Bad call..

MarcusRock · Sep 14, 2020

Cap12 said:
Then who do you call the penalty on? Both players were hand-checking. There is no question that Ramsey was using his arm to try to pin Gallop's arm so he couldn't catch the ball. Happens all the time and commentators will refer to it as "good technique".I WR then uses his hands to impede the DB from doing this. It's called "hand-checking" and it happens all the time. Sometimes a DB can lose a step in this process and that's what happened here. When Ramsey realized he was beaten he "flopped" to make it look like Gallop had shoved his body to gain separation (when in reality, he lost the "hand-check" battle).

As I've mentioned in other threads, Ramsey's reaction was delayed and exaggerated. Replay at no time shows Gallop touching Ramsey's torso, which is what OPI is virtually always called for (not "hand-checking"). Bad call..

As I answered you in the other thread. How you don't see Gallup touching (even initiating contract with) Ramsey is beyond me:

Cap12 said:
Please note: I didn't say that Gallup did not touch Ramsey. I just said he did not touch his TORSO (AKA Chest, shoulders, stomach area etc.) This is what normally triggers OPI calls, as the WR fully extends his arms ro push a DB on their torso.

What do you call the area just south of the shoulder area? Because that is what Gallup was touching the whole way and does shove a bit to clear space. That would be called the torso.

Cap12 said:
What was actually happening is hand-checking (in other words, Ramsey was initiating contact with Gallup and Gallup was using his hands to clear Ramsey's hands and arms.

That's not what happened. In this GIF, Ramsey doesn't even put his hand on Gallup until after Gallup is ALREADY touching him just below the shoulder area (torso, to the layperson) as the GIF begins. Even then, Ramsey doesn't lock up Gallup's arm so Gallup could have done the underhand swim move to free both hands for the catch.

Cap12 said:
So, are you saying that Ramsey was not using his hands and arms on Gallup?

After initial contact by Gallup he did. He has the right not to run and get pushed the whole way. Hand-checking as you say.

Cap12 said:
Again, the call was made because of Ramsey's reaction, bot because the ref actually saw Gallop push Ramsey's body to make room to catch the ball. That didn't happen.

It did happen. Again, you're seeing what you want to see. Gallup's left arm is bent while touching Ramsey the whole way and even initiated the contact if this GIF is to be believed. Then, before disengaging, Gallup straightens his arm to provide the push to gain separation which is how he got into the clear.

Does Gallup's arm go from bent at the elbow to straight just before disengaging with Ramsey whom he was touching the whole way and initiating contact per this video? (Please watch the replay carefully).

TwoDeep3 · Sep 14, 2020

How much of the separation was due to Ramsey seeing he was losing the battle and did his act of being pushed back to get the flag? I don't believe Dez caught the ball. So this is a frame of reference part of this post.

But on this play I believe it was clear Ramsey was hooking Gallup's arm to prevent Gallup from making the catch. Watch the film again. Gallup had him beat at the beginning of it. Ramsey tied up his arm, and to me, while I do see what some call pushing off. Watch and see that Gallup was freeing his arm from Ramsey's hook.

Good play by Ramsey to sell the push. But had the ref been in a different position the flag would have come out on Ramsey before the alleged push.

TwoDeep3 · Sep 14, 2020

MarcusRock said:
As I answered you in the other thread. How you don't see Gallup touching (even initiating contract with) Ramsey is beyond me:

What do you call the area just south of the shoulder area? Because that is what Gallup was touching the whole way and does shove a bit to clear space. That would be called the torso.

That's not what happened. In this GIF, Ramsey doesn't even put his hand on Gallup until after Gallup is ALREADY touching him just below the shoulder area (torso, to the layperson) as the GIF begins. Even then, Ramsey doesn't lock up Gallup's arm so Gallup could have done the underhand swim move to free both hands for the catch.

After initial contact by Gallup he did. He has the right not to run and get pushed the whole way. Hand-checking as you say.

It did happen. Again, you're seeing what you want to see. Gallup's left arm is bent while touching Ramsey the whole way and even initiated the contact if this GIF is to be believed. Then, before disengaging, Gallup straightens his arm to provide the push to gain separation which is how he got into the clear.

Does Gallup's arm go from bent at the elbow to straight just before disengaging with Ramsey whom he was touching the whole way and initiating contact per this video? (Please watch the replay carefully).

I disagree completely. Gallup can have his hand on Ramsey. That aspect was far less egregious than the hook to ****** Gallup's hand from getting into the pass catching position. In any event Ramsey was beaten and would not have made a play on the ball other than to attempt to knock it out of Gallup's hands.

Frankly, I think you are seeing what you want to see.

CATCH17 · Sep 14, 2020

Creeper said:
Yeah, we are not going to see this the same way, but clearly Ramsey has his arm inside Gallup's and is pushing against Gallup's bicep to try to keep him from getting his arm out in front of him. It hard to run full speed when you are pushing on a guys arm like that. It also slows Gallup down - and Ramsey too. My point is that this play is not obvious, is not called consistently and in most cases is not called at all. I am not faulting the refs from calling it. I fault them for the BS excuse and explanation after the game.

100%

Making that call with the game on the line is BS. It's not clear and very debatable.

If that is OPI than I think the next step is you can't touch each other at all or is PI.

The WR gets the benefit of the doubt much more often than the DB too so for that to get called is a joke.

It's not the reason we lost. We were severely outcoached and outplayed but we could've won the game if not for that horrible call.

MarcusRock · Sep 14, 2020

TwoDeep3 said:
I disagree completely. Gallup can have his hand on Ramsey. That aspect was far less egregious than the hook to ****** Gallup's hand from getting into the pass catching position. In any event Ramsey was beaten and would not have made a play on the ball other than to attempt to knock it out of Gallup's hands.

Frankly, I think you are seeing what you want to see.

Of course Gallup can have his hand on Ramsey. He just can't push off to gain separation which he clearly did. It's simple. His arm was bent, wasn't pinned, locked or hooked by Ramsey (evident in that Gallup could have also done a swim move to better position that hand), and then his arm goes straight to push off in disengaging. Debatable if that was "enough" of a push off but why leave it to chance? If Ramsey was beat there was no need to do that. Do a swim move or leap above Ramsey. Either one could have gotten that done.

RamziD · Sep 14, 2020

MarcusRock said:
As I answered you in the other thread. How you don't see Gallup touching (even initiating contract with) Ramsey is beyond me:

What do you call the area just south of the shoulder area? Because that is what Gallup was touching the whole way and does shove a bit to clear space. That would be called the torso.

That's not what happened. In this GIF, Ramsey doesn't even put his hand on Gallup until after Gallup is ALREADY touching him just below the shoulder area (torso, to the layperson) as the GIF begins. Even then, Ramsey doesn't lock up Gallup's arm so Gallup could have done the underhand swim move to free both hands for the catch.

After initial contact by Gallup he did. He has the right not to run and get pushed the whole way. Hand-checking as you say.

It did happen. Again, you're seeing what you want to see. Gallup's left arm is bent while touching Ramsey the whole way and even initiated the contact if this GIF is to be believed. Then, before disengaging, Gallup straightens his arm to provide the push to gain separation which is how he got into the clear.

Does Gallup's arm go from bent at the elbow to straight just before disengaging with Ramsey whom he was touching the whole way and initiating contact per this video? (Please watch the replay carefully).

Pause that gif right after you start it. They both have their hands on each other. That’s called hand fighting and it happens all the time. It wasn’t a case of Gallup started pushing Ramsey so then he used his hands in defense. It was completely simultaneous. And Ramsey sold the separation at the end.

Cap12 · Sep 14, 2020

Ramsey touched his shoulder and Gallup touched his arm. Gallup's arm does not fully extend. This is hand-checking. It was a late flag/homer call. The reason it was called was that Ramsey flopped and complained. Plain and simple.

RamziD · Sep 14, 2020

MarcusRock said:
As I answered you in the other thread. How you don't see Gallup touching (even initiating contract with) Ramsey is beyond me:

What do you call the area just south of the shoulder area? Because that is what Gallup was touching the whole way and does shove a bit to clear space. That would be called the torso.

That's not what happened. In this GIF, Ramsey doesn't even put his hand on Gallup until after Gallup is ALREADY touching him just below the shoulder area (torso, to the layperson) as the GIF begins. Even then, Ramsey doesn't lock up Gallup's arm so Gallup could have done the underhand swim move to free both hands for the catch.

After initial contact by Gallup he did. He has the right not to run and get pushed the whole way. Hand-checking as you say.

It did happen. Again, you're seeing what you want to see. Gallup's left arm is bent while touching Ramsey the whole way and even initiated the contact if this GIF is to be believed. Then, before disengaging, Gallup straightens his arm to provide the push to gain separation which is how he got into the clear.

Does Gallup's arm go from bent at the elbow to straight just before disengaging with Ramsey whom he was touching the whole way and initiating contact per this video? (Please watch the replay carefully).

You must have deleted your post where you said Gallup could have his arm on Ramsey but that his arm wasn’t pinned. At the end where there is a slight extension of Gallup’s wrist, Ramsey clearly has Gallup’s arm pulled back. Again, this happens all the time and never gets called.

Edit: I missed the post,it’s still up. My point remains.

CATCH17 · Sep 14, 2020

MarcusRock said:
Of course Gallup can have his hand on Ramsey. He just can't push off to gain separation which he clearly did. It's simple. His arm was bent, wasn't pinned, locked or hooked by Ramsey (evident in that Gallup could have also done a swim move to better position that hand), and then his arm goes straight to push off in disengaging. Debatable if that was "enough" of a push off but why leave it to chance? If Ramsey was beat there was no need to do that. Do a swim move or leap above Ramsey. Either one could have gotten that done.

There is no pushoff that gave him separation.

He had separation. The corner was beat.

The only argument you have is that they were touching each other but calling that a OPI is just as weak as it would've been to say Ramsey had his arm wrapped. It did nothing to determine the outcome of the play.

News: Rams slip past Cowboys in NFL Week 1 after questionable PI call

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