*** SPOILERS *** Avengers Endgame Discussions

I thought the film was weaker the 2nd time around. It relies too much on fan-service, which loses some of it's luster the 2nd time around. Without that luster, the movie feels overlong and suffers under it's own weight a bit.

Girl power scene still comes off as terrible, but even without the girl power aspect of it, it's just awful.

Ant-man seems pretty useless on the 2nd time through, outside of having the info about the quantum realm. When they go back in time, he doesn't really do anything. He's there for the botch job that results in Loki getting the tesseract, and then he goes back to the future. He doesn't do much in the fight, even though there is the whole segment where they power up the van (which is ultimately shut down by Thanos and plays no role).

I really think now that this movie easily could have been under 2.5 hours, and probably closer to the 2 hour mark. There's a lot of superfluous material.

I finally got around to seeing "End Game" and can finally join the conversation. After thinking about the movie for a day or so, hear are a few thoughts:

• I really enjoyed the movie.... I would give it an 8/10. It is a fitting and worthwhile conclusion to Phase 3 (OK, I know that the next Spider Man is the official end of phase 3) and a good way to transition several of the original MCU characters out of the next phase.
• The best part of the movie for me was Captain America weilding Thor's hammer, Mjolnir.
• The worst part was the death of Black Widow... kind of expected one (or, or more) of the original Avengers to die, but i didn't expect Black Widow.
• Not sure how I feel about the anticipated Phase 4 movies... Beyond the classic Marvel comics, I was not that avid a fan of some of Phase 4 movies and comic characters. I am definitely looking forward to the next "Guardians of the Galaxy" and "Black Window" (see a trend here?) movies, though.
• I felt I got my monies worth from the 3 hour film, but.... couldn't make it through the movie without a toilet break .

Runwildboys said:

I think the fact that Thanos has brute strength and intelligence is why Hulk lost. Assuming Banner still has Hulk's full power, I think the outcome would be different now.

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Hulk lost because Thanos had the Power Stone active when they fought.

Pape said:

Hulk lost because Thanos had the Power Stone active when they fought.

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The Power Stone supplied Thanos with physical strength that exceed Hulk's power level. However, that is not the reason why the latter lost in pitiful fashion in my opinion.

True, Thanos possessed the Power Stone when he fought Hulk. Thanos had the Power Stone when he fought Iron Man on Titan. Stark lost to Thanos but I would suggest Iron Man fought the Mad Titan more fiercely than Hulk. Thanos half-joked that Stark managed to gain a trickle of blood out of their face-off.

On the other hand, Hulk did not even phase Thanos. Hulk was flat outboxed by Thanos. Their duel reminded me a lot of the old Buster Douglas/Iron Mike Tyson fight--one sided and brief.

Both Iron Man and Hulk would have lost to Thanos and the Power Stone. Still, it was more in the pathetic way Hulk, someone possessing more raw strength than Iron Man, lost to Thanos that was surprising than his actual defeat.

DallasEast said:

The Power Stone supplied Thanos with physical strength that exceed Hulk's power level. However, that is not the reason why the latter lost in pitiful fashion in my opinion.

True, Thanos possessed the Power Stone when he fought Hulk. Thanos had the Power Stone when he fought Iron Man on Titan. Stark lost to Thanos but I would suggest Iron Man fought the Mad Titan more fiercely than Hulk. Thanos half-joked that Stark managed to gain a trickle of blood out of their face-off.

On the other hand, Hulk did not even phase Thanos. Hulk was flat outboxed by Thanos. Their duel reminded me a lot of the old Buster Douglas/Iron Mike Tyson fight--one sided and brief.

Both Iron Man and Hulk would have lost to Thanos and the Power Stone. Still, it was more in the pathetic way Hulk, someone possessing more raw strength than Iron Man, lost to Thanos that was surprising than his actual defeat.

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It was one of very few disappointments with Endgame that we never got to see Hulk redeem himself in a rematch against Thanos. In fact, Hulk really didn't get to do a whole lot from a physical standpoint at all.

And now I've read where the Russos said that the physical damage received from using the Gauntlet is permanent and will not heal on its own. That sounds like a disappointing arc for the character.

To be honest, I'm curious as to how, when, and where the Hulk will be seen again. They may have simply written him off along with all of the original Avengers lineup. It was mentioned at the end that Thor was hitching a ride with the Guardians back into space, but there's no guarantee even he will still be around when Guardians 3 arrives in theaters.

stasheroo said:

It was one of very few disappointments with Endgame that we never got to see Hulk redeem himself in a rematch against Thanos. In fact, Hulk really didn't get to do a whole lot from a physical standpoint at all.

And now I've read where the Russos said that the physical damage received from using the Gauntlet is permanent and will not heal on its own. That sounds like a disappointing arc for the character.

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Totally agree. On one hand, we had The Hulk, who was strongest human on Earth by a significant margin. On the other hand, we had the Power Stone, which grants its owner immeasurable strength.

The whole setup screamed rematch after Thanos' first beatdown. I am guessing Disney/Marvel decided audiences should have already been satisfied with both the Wanda enraged Hulk/Hulk armored Iron Man battle in Avengers: Age of Ultron and space gladiator Hulk/Lightning demi-god Thor in Thor: Ragnarok. Shoot, if I remember correctly, Hulk jumped Surtur in the latter movie also! Yet, no true (prepared) Hulk/Thanos payoff near the end of MCU's Phase 3. Sad.

Thanos' permanent disability received after getting rid of the stones had already prepared me for Hulk's demise. I was already debating with myself which character could perform the snap, survive but end up like Thanos had (or worse). It seemed logical the only two choices could be Thor and Hulk. My conclusion seemed re-enforced by the film keeping Banner entrenched within his Hulk transformation. It did not surprise me the chosen Avenger to performed the first snap was Hulk. Likewise, it did not surprise me of his injury's severity.

On a similar note, I doubt Banner can even revert back to his normal self without dying within the framework of this story. Color me not shocked that the Russos sidelined Hulk indefinitely, if not forever. Maybe we will be treated by one-armed Hulk in the future lol.

stasheroo said:

To be honest, I'm curious as to how, when, and where the Hulk will be seen again. They may have simply written him off along with all of the original Avengers lineup. It was mentioned at the end that Thor was hitching a ride with the Guardians back into space, but there's no guarantee even he will still be around when Guardians 3 arrives in theaters.

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Thor voiced allusions to the comic book title while joking with Quill about the 'Asgardians of the Galaxy'. I think there are way too many similarities between the GOTG and AOTG to believe Disney/Marvel will create another franchise just for retaining Chris Hemsworth full-time. I can foresee Hemsworth doing one or two cameos in upcoming MCU films and then nothing or no additional appearances at all.

DallasEast said:

Thanos' permanent disability received after getting rid of the stones had already prepared me for Hulk's demise. I was already debating with myself which character could perform the snap, survive but end up like Thanos had (or worse). It seemed logical the only two choices could be Thor and Hulk. My conclusion seemed re-enforced by the film keeping Banner entrenched within his Hulk transformation. It did not surprise me the chosen Avenger to performed the first snap was Hulk. Likewise, it did not surprise me of his injury's severity.

On a similar note, I doubt Banner can even revert back to his normal self without dying within the framework of this story. Color me not shocked that the Russos sidelined Hulk indefinitely, if not forever. Maybe we will be treated by one-armed Hulk in the future lol.

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When I saw both Thanos and Hulk injured, I had assumed it to be initial, short-term trauma rather than anything permanent. After all, Thanos used the Gauntlet not once, but twice and survived. And I'm optimistic that if and when someone else wants to use the Hulk, there will be some method of outside healing that will fix things. A one-armed Hulk is no good to anyone, especially given the obvious cost in having CGI Professor Hulk on screen at all times. I expect things to get fixed.

Thor voiced allusions to the comic book title while joking with Quill about the 'Asgardians of the Galaxy'. I think there are way too many similarities between the GOTG and AOTG to believe Disney/Marvel will create another franchise just for retaining Chris Hemsworth full-time. I can foresee Hemsworth doing one or two cameos in upcoming MCU films and then nothing or no additional appearances at all.

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I'm just thinking about maybe an "altered" logo for the third Guardians film, if, in fact James Gunn wants to include Thor and Hemsworth. But seeing as how the story and script was already completed, I'm not sure if changes would now be made.

stasheroo said:

When I saw both Thanos and Hulk injured, I had assumed it to be initial, short-term trauma rather than anything permanent. After all, Thanos used the Gauntlet not once, but twice and survived. And I'm optimistic that if and when someone else wants to use the Hulk, there will be some method of outside healing that will fix things. A one-armed Hulk is no good to anyone, especially given the obvious cost in having CGI Professor Hulk on screen at all times. I expect things to get fixed.



I'm just thinking about maybe an "altered" logo for the third Guardians film, if, in fact James Gunn wants to include Thor and Hemsworth. But seeing as how the story and script was already completed, I'm not sure if changes would now be made.

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Thanos was injured trying to destroy the stones, so probably a big difference there.

Runwildboys said:

Thanos was injured trying to destroy the stones, so probably a big difference there.

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He was injured twice. Once with the snap, and again destroying the Stones.

But the Avengers arrived and killed him immediately afterwards, so there was no indication of whether or not anyone would eventually heal from using the Gauntlet.

stasheroo said:

When I saw both Thanos and Hulk injured, I had assumed it to be initial, short-term trauma rather than anything permanent. After all, Thanos used the Gauntlet not once, but twice and survived. And I'm optimistic that if and when someone else wants to use the Hulk, there will be some method of outside healing that will fix things. A one-armed Hulk is no good to anyone, especially given the obvious cost in having CGI Professor Hulk on screen at all times. I expect things to get fixed.

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My outlook was slightly different, believing Thanos' Titanian Eternal physiology gave him an advantage over almost anyone else using the Gauntlet. From my perspective, Thanos could use the Gauntlet as often as he wanted without physical repercussions. It was Thanos' attempt to rid the universe of stones that created a 'power surge', which the Gauntlet could not safely channel for its user--no matter who it could have been.

On the other hand, I surmised Stark's Gauntlet would not employ such safeguards. I figured anyone else was toast knowing no one else had cosmically enhanced physiologies. In hindsight, I am surprised Ronan's hammer could handle his Infinity Stone as well as it did during the first Guardians of the Galaxy movie. I am not that familiar with specifics concerning Ronan's character, equipment, etc. It has me wondering if Kree technology artificially enhanced him or his hammer with cosmic-like properties.

DallasEast said:

My outlook was slightly different, believing Thanos' Titanian Eternal physiology gave him an advantage over almost anyone else using the Gauntlet. From my perspective, Thanos could use the Gauntlet as often as he wanted without physical repercussions. It was Thanos' attempt to rid the universe of stones that created a 'power surge', which the Gauntlet could not safely channel for its user--no matter who it could have been.

On the other hand, I surmised Stark's Gauntlet would not employ such safeguards. I figured anyone else was toast knowing no one else had cosmically enhanced physiologies. In hindsight, I am surprised Ronan's hammer could handle his Infinity Stone as well as it did during the first Guardians of the Galaxy movie. I am not that familiar with specifics concerning Ronan's character, equipment, etc. It has me wondering if Kree technology artificially enhanced him or his hammer with cosmic-like properties.

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Ronan handled the stone barehanded, so maybe the hammer didn't really matter?

stasheroo said:

He was injured twice. Once with the snap, and again destroying the Stones.

But the Avengers arrived and killed him immediately afterwards, so there was no indication of whether or not anyone would eventually heal from using the Gauntlet.

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He dusted everyone without injury, didn't he? When was he injured other than when he tried to destroy the stones? I don't remember that.

Runwildboys said:

Ronan handled the stone barehanded, so maybe the hammer didn't really matter?

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He handled the stone barehanded for only several moments before embedding it into his hammer. From my observation, he was under some distress while holding the stone for those few seconds.

In my opinion, Ronan would not have held the stone very long before suffering the same visual damage as Quill. Ronan is a highly augmented Kree Accuser, much more so than any of the other accusers seen in Captain Marvel. He is extremely tough but he is not on Thanos' level.

stasheroo said:

He was injured twice. Once with the snap, and again destroying the Stones.

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I must go back and review the end scenes of Avengers: Infinity War and the scenes shortly before Thanos' beheading in Avengers: Endgame.

stasheroo said:

He was injured twice. Once with the snap, and again destroying the Stones.

But the Avengers arrived and killed him immediately afterwards, so there was no indication of whether or not anyone would eventually heal from using the Gauntlet.

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Yeah the damage after the 1st Thanos snap looked almost like a burn victim.
After destroying the stones it looked like worse burns and debilitating arm and leg injuries.

Hulk might heal better than Thanos would have aftervfirst snap because Tony doused him with a coolant type gel/foam.

Runwildboys said:

He dusted everyone without injury, didn't he? When was he injured other than when he tried to destroy the stones? I don't remember that.

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No, the arm damage was there right after the dusting snap.

LittleBoyBlue said:

Yeah the damage after the 1st Thanos snap looked almost like a burn victim.
After destroying the stones it looked like worse burns and debilitating arm and leg injuries.

Hulk might heal better than Thanos would have aftervfirst snap because Tony doused him with a coolant type gel/foam.

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That and if they go by comics, Hulk's regeneration rivals Wolverines. Thanos never had regeneration.

Hit Hulk with a gamma blast and he'll probably be good as new.

DeathMonkey said:

I have to say that it was decent for a popcorn movie, but disappointing due to the plot holes.

I'm going to reinforce the title and wait to post more so people can't say they weren't warned.


SPOILERS! DO NOT READ FURTHER IF YOU DON'T WANT SPOILERS!!!!!

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I have been told by many that this flick could have been done in 2 hours and the extra hour was basically fan-service.
Interesting...

Corso said:

I have been told by many that this flick could have been done in 2 hours and the extra hour was basically fan-service.
Interesting...

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A lot of the fan service was very entertaining though.

DeathMonkey said:

No, the arm damage was there right after the dusting snap.

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Weird, I don't think I ever noticed any injury there. Did he even react to it?