The Case Against Extending Elliott

Toruk_Makto · Jul 18, 2019

TwoDeep3 said:
It doesn't take all the good players. They are not on the market at the same time.

Why not just buy all the good players every free agency?

Since ThE sAlArY cAp DoEsN't MaTtEr

TwoDeep3 · Jul 18, 2019

Toruk_Makto said:
Why not just buy all the good players every free agency?

Since ThE sAlArY cAp DoEsN't MaTtEr

Senility or sass?

Which is it?

Toruk_Makto · Jul 18, 2019

TwoDeep3 said:
Senility or sass?

Which is it?

It is ignorant to always trot out "pay Zeke because the cap doesn't matter."

It is also ignorant to think the Cowboys were in some "OMG cap hell" for the last decade.

The correct take is that overpaying for a RB who relies on volume and not efficiency and is already losing steps at 24 is...stupid...and will cost you a player or players at other positions that could TRULY be the difference in winning or losing.

percyhoward · Jul 18, 2019

Toruk_Makto said:
Would love to see the numbers vs league average. Specifically opportunities.

Anyone can easily look them up. Those were the rankings in percentage of red zone possessions ending in a TD, so total opportunities wouldn't affect the ranking anyway.

It's not a question of something mysteriously skewing the numbers, the team was just really good in the red zone in 2016-17, and really bad in the red zone in 2018. The difference in 2018 was probably the absence of a real red zone receiving threat (no Dez, no Witten), and the absence of the league's best run-blocking center (Frederick).

xwalker · Jul 18, 2019

Toruk_Makto said:
Zeke finished 24th in yards per route run. He was essentially a dump off option. High volume. Low efficiency.

Also my draft opinion was that Zeke was a great player who because of his position shouldn't be drafted where he was taken.

As it turns out Zeke is just a really good player who has benefited from good health, high volume and elite run blocking.

What analysis am I only pretending to do?

Oh and in regards to replacing Zeke almost any rb we view highly in the mid rounds would do. It's amazing people can look at the success Alfred Morris and Darren McFadden had in our offense and worry about finding running production. It's amazing people who follow the NFL closely worry about finding rushing production and focus on the rb.

Find me a GM who goes into the draft with rb as his biggest need I'll show you a pretty happy GM.

By analysis I mean any comments by you about Zeke in present tense when your only interest relates back to the draft.

It's like Broaddus. Every year his reports of which players look great and which ones struggle in OTAs and early in camp always correlate back to his opinions about the player previously (primarily if he liked them when picked in the draft).

Rockport · Jul 18, 2019

Blackrain said:
No nonsense about it Moore is not a proven commodity yet so after viewing the WR by committee debacle of last year Im not confident we can just dispense with a top 3 RB and have a group talented enough to carry the load with our current coaching staff . We added one very talented WR and fixed the problem .

Moore was still on the staff and the problem was not going away . He could not catch the balls that were going through lesser talented guys hands than Coopers and being INTd

Im all about giving him a chance but till he proves himself Im not confident . I believe if Zeke is in shape and all in commitment wise with the improvements on the Oline we will be able to run the ball effectively, like we did before no matter who the OC is We imposed our will and had a talented enough RB to do so when everyone knew we were running the ball .

3 guys with marginal talent could require a level of coaching at the OC spot that we don't know if we have yet .

So before you accuse someone of spewing nonsense think it through a little

Some folks are positive and then there are folks like you. It’s a choice. And the reason I point this out is because most of your posts are the opposite of being positive.

Toruk_Makto · Jul 18, 2019

percyhoward said:
Anyone can easily look them up. Those were the rankings in percentage of red zone possessions ending in a TD, so total opportunities wouldn't affect the ranking anyway.

It's not a question of something mysteriously skewing the numbers, the team was just really good in the red zone in 2016-17, and really bad in the red zone in 2018. The difference in 2018 was probably the absence of a real red zone receiving threat (no Dez, no Witten), and the absence of the league's best run-blocking center (Frederick).

Where do you think they end up this year?

percyhoward · Jul 18, 2019

Toruk_Makto said:
Where do you think they end up this year?

Beats me. Fred being back should help, but we're still gonna have to scheme some TD, and hope Gallup develops into a red zone threat. He did show signs of that late in the season.

Red zone TD% doesn't have a huge correlation with wins, but that's mostly skewed by high TD percentages of offenses that aren't in the red zone often. That wouldn't apply to a team like Dallas that ranks 8th in total red zone drives from 2016-18.

Toruk_Makto · Jul 19, 2019

xwalker said:
By analysis I mean any comments by you about Zeke in present tense when your only interest relates back to the draft.

It's like Broaddus. Every year his reports of which players look great and which ones struggle in OTAs and early in camp always correlate back to his opinions about the player previously (primarily if he liked them when picked in the draft).

This is nonsense.

My original viewpoint was that Zeke was a great prospect/player but getting a RB at 4 is stupid.

As it turns out Zeke has proven to be a better prospect than NFL player.

None of that changes my mind on my draft day opinion that RB isn't worth a 4th.

First PFF came out and imperically showed Zeke to be comfortably out of the top tier (he doesn't make explosive runs and he doesn't forced missed tackles and he is outside the top 20 in yards per route run among rbs).

Then 538, an analytical powerhouse, comes out and shows he was a replacement level performer last year propped up by volume.

On this very forum weeks ago I said go look at the 2018 highlight film for Zeke posted here. It's a dull affair of clip after clip of Zeke mostly getting what's blocked. His HIGHLIGHT film. Zeke doesn't leave meat on the bone but he doesn't suck out the bone marrow either.

So now we're in the uncomfortable situation where it's not worth it to pay elite backs big money and now we have a low efficiency high volume back that wants big money. Yuck.

Feel free to argue against what I'm actually saying rather than build a strawman bringing in Broaddus as a foil for you to cower behind.

DuncanIso · Jul 19, 2019

Toruk_Makto said:
It is ignorant to always trot out "pay Zeke because the cap doesn't matter."

It is also ignorant to think the Cowboys were in some "OMG cap hell" for the last decade.

The correct take is that overpaying for a RB who relies on volume and not efficiency and is already losing steps at 24 is...stupid...and will cost you a player or players at other positions that could TRULY be the difference in winning or losing.

Zeke averaged 5.1 yards per touch last season.

2001 all purpose yards.

That efficient enough for you ?

All that for 3.8 million this season.

Zeke isn’t gonna be like LBell.

Pay Zeke.

CowboyRoy · Jul 19, 2019

Blackrain said:
I agree a RB by committee could probably be developed, but Im not confident in Garrett or our Staff to do the Job . Great coaches like Belicheck can do those types of things and use the money to acquire more talent at other areas .

I guess at this juncture I feel if we let Zeke get away and try the committee approach we will end up like we did at WR last year and have to make another desperate fix if we were to struggle running like we did at WR

Definitely a possibility. Garrett sucks. Maybe if Pollard shows something this year you guys will be more inclined to see that we don't need a top 3 back.

Jake · Jul 19, 2019

Rockport said:
Some folks are positive and then there are folks like you. It’s a choice. And the reason I point this out is because most of your posts are the opposite of being positive.

Positive? Most of your posts are just criticism of other posters. :muttley:

Blackrain · Jul 19, 2019

CowboyRoy said:
Definitely a possibility. Garrett sucks. Maybe if Pollard shows something this year you guys will be more inclined to see that we don't need a top 3 back.

Agreed if we could stave off paying Zeke till we see what we have in Pollard that would be great .

Diehardblues · Jul 19, 2019

Blackrain said:
Agreed if we could stave off paying Zeke till we see what we have in Pollard that would be great .

We can always let Elliott sit to begin the year and see what we have. Lol

That might be how this shakes out. If we have success without Elliott then we might be ok. If not Elliott’s value goes up.

Blackrain · Jul 19, 2019

Diehardblues said:
We can always let Elliott sit to begin the year and see what we have. Lol

That might be how this shakes out. If we have success without Elliott then we might be ok. If not Elliott’s value goes up.

Yep it would be a real crap shoot with our season but Jerry is a gambler

QuincyCarterEra · Jul 19, 2019

Toruk_Makto said:
This is nonsense.

My original viewpoint was that Zeke was a great prospect/player but getting a RB at 4 is stupid.

As it turns out Zeke has proven to be a better prospect than NFL player.

None of that changes my mind on my draft day opinion that RB isn't worth a 4th.

First PFF came out and imperically showed Zeke to be comfortably out of the top tier (he doesn't make explosive runs and he doesn't forced missed tackles and he is outside the top 20 in yards per route run among rbs).

Then 538, an analytical powerhouse, comes out and shows he was a replacement level performer last year propped up by volume.

On this very forum weeks ago I said go look at the 2018 highlight film for Zeke posted here. It's a dull affair of clip after clip of Zeke mostly getting what's blocked. His HIGHLIGHT film. Zeke doesn't leave meat on the bone but he doesn't suck out the bone marrow either.

So now we're in the uncomfortable situation where it's not worth it to pay elite backs big money and now we have a low efficiency high volume back that wants big money. Yuck.

Feel free to argue against what I'm actually saying rather than build a strawman bringing in Broaddus as a foil for you to cower behind.

CouchCoach · Jul 19, 2019

One thing Elliott needs to consider is that while Booger might blink at a threat to hold out as he did with Bryant, that all important relationship that he covets will suffer as Bryant's did and he was cut. Lawrence played the good soldier, took the tag and played, even with a bum shoulder, and he kept that critical "Booger likes him".

That's one of the advantages that Booger enjoys being the owner and GM. He can keep any player, or coach, he wants because he likes them.

QuincyCarterEra · Jul 19, 2019

DuncanIso said:
Zeke averaged 5.1 yards per touch last season.

2001 all purpose yards.

That efficient enough for you ?

All that for 3.8 million this season.

Zeke isn’t gonna be like LBell.

Pay Zeke.

1. 5.1 yards per touch is not good at all lmao
2. All purpose yards don't apply to efficiency. Almost everyone knows this.
3. Zeke's CAP hit is 5th highest in the league amongst RBs at $8M ON HIS ROOKIE CONTRACT
4. Paying Zeke would be a mistake

Diehardblues · Jul 19, 2019

CouchCoach said:
One thing Elliott needs to consider is that while Booger might blink at a threat to hold out as he did with Bryant, that all important relationship that he covets will suffer as Bryant's did and he was cut. Lawrence played the good soldier, took the tag and played, even with a bum shoulder, and he kept that critical "Booger likes him".

That's one of the advantages that Booger enjoys being the owner and GM. He can keep any player, or coach, he wants because he likes them.

Yep

And I think that’s why Elliott is pulling this stunt if he truly is. He doesn’t think we intend on extending him in 2 years and is forcing the issue now . And if we aren’t interested wants to move on where someone is more interested in extending him.

CapnCook · Jul 19, 2019

JoeKing said:
Did you not here me say "trade"? We won 5 SBs without Zeke and we can win without him in the future too. We'll have another workhorse RB if Zeke is traded.

Cool. When we have Emmitt and Tony on the roster, I feel good about not having Zeke.

The Case Against Extending Elliott

Toruk_Makto

Well-Known Member

TwoDeep3

Well-Known Member

Toruk_Makto

Well-Known Member

percyhoward

Research Tool

xwalker

Well-Known Member

Rockport

AmberBeer

Toruk_Makto

Well-Known Member

percyhoward

Research Tool

Toruk_Makto

Well-Known Member

DuncanIso

Well-Known Member

CowboyRoy

Well-Known Member

Jake

Beyond tired of Jerry

Blackrain

Well-Known Member

Diehardblues

Well-Known Member

Blackrain

Well-Known Member

QuincyCarterEra

Well-Known Member

CouchCoach

QuincyCarterEra

Well-Known Member

Diehardblues

Well-Known Member

CapnCook

Well-Known Member