Video: 105.3 The Fan | Ross Tucker Defends Disrespectful McCarthy Rankings

[HungryLion]

Brees never threw for close to 4000 yards in San Diego despite having a 15 and a 16 start season. What he did there would have been considered a washed year in NO. His average net yards per attempt his final season in San Diego was in the 5’s. He only had 1 of his final 10 years in NO under 7. That’s an incredible transformation.

You can be good and still be reinvented because you were so much more afterward.

The rules were also different and passing was harder early in Brees career. He was still a young QB who was bound to get better.

Brees has been a stud QB everywhere he went. It’s also entirely possible that Brees was destined to be a hall of fame QB. We will never know.

Aaron Rodgers never started an NFL game prior to being with McCarthy. You can’t give Payton credit for “reinventing” a Pro Bowl QB but give McCarthy zero credit for developing Rodgers.

That argument still makes zero sense.

You can’t give one coach credit for “reinventing” Drew Brees while giving zero credit for a coach because he “had” Rodgers. Particularly when Brees was already one of the best young QB’s in the league before ever playing for Payton.

Sorry it doesn’t hold water.

 

[Qcard]

Drew Brees is still the all time leader in Big Ten passing yards. Despite the fact that he played most of his time there in the 90’s with less favorable passing rules than the modern college game.

Drew Brees was the first pick of the second round

Drew Brees was a pro bowl QB in San Diego.

He wasn’t “reinvented”. Sean Payton didn’t “make him”. Drew Brees was a great QB consistently from high school, through college and his entire NFL career.

He is an all time great.

Yeah....Chargers missed your soliloquy

 

[HungryLion]

Yeah....Chargers missed your soliloquy

Drew Brees suffered a serious injury. The chargers had a chance to draft Rivers and didn’t want to pass it up because nobody knew if Brees would recover from the injury.

He did.

 

[Aerolithe_Lion]

The rules were also different and passing was harder early in Brees career. He was still a young QB who was bound to get better.

Brees has been a stud QB everywhere he went. It’s also entirely possible that Brees was destined to be a hall of fame QB. We will never know.

Aaron Rodgers never started an NFL game prior to being with McCarthy. You can’t give Payton credit for “reinventing” a Pro Bowl QB but give McCarthy zero credit for developing Rodgers.

That argument still makes zero sense.

You can’t give one coach credit for “reinventing” Drew Brees while giving zero credit for a coach because he “had” Rodgers. Particularly when Brees was already one of the best young QB’s in the league before ever playing for Payton.

Sorry it doesn’t hold water.

Brees wasn’t that though, that’s revisitionist history. Brees was not a stud everywhere he went; he was the 32nd overall pick who busted out his first three years in SD, it’s the entire reason they picked Philip Rivers in the first place. Only then did he get it together have have your pro bowl season, but it was too little, too late. And it wasn’t even a spectacular season, it was just better than he shows previously. 3100 yards. They didn’t let Brees go in FA because he was injured, they let him go because they were convinced he wasn’t the future of the team.

And it wasn’t the difference in eras that transformed Bree’s career, it was immediate in NO. The very first season as a Saint he threw for 4400 yards, compared to 3100 in his “breakout” SD year. It wasn’t even comparable. He was a dramatically different player. This isn’t 12 years later, this is 12 months later.

For McCarthy, no one is saying he didn’t help develop Rodgers. He did that, had early success, and… that was it. I bet the HC rankings in 2011 had him near the top. But all of his accolades were 8+ years ago. Last CCG was 2014, and the coach who replaced him immediately made one the very next year after Mccarthy’s team quit on him.

 

[HungryLion]

Brees wasn’t that though, that’s revisitionist history. Brees was not a stud everywhere he went; he was the 32nd overall pick who busted out his first three years in SD, it’s the entire reason they picked Philip Rivers in the first place. Only then did he get it together have have your pro bowl season, but it was too little, too late. And it wasn’t even a spectacular season, it was just better than he shows previously. 3100 yards. They didn’t let Brees go in FA because he was injured, they let him go because they were convinced he wasn’t the future of the team.

And it wasn’t the difference in eras that transformed Bree’s career, it was immediate in NO. The very first season as a Saint he threw for 4400 yards, compared to 3100 in his “breakout” SD year. It wasn’t even comparable. He was a dramatically different player. This isn’t 12 years later, this is 12 months later.

For McCarthy, no one is saying he didn’t help develop Rodgers. He did that, had early success, and… that was it. I bet the HC rankings in 2011 had him near the top. But all of his accolades were 8+ years ago. Last CCG was 2014, and the coach who replaced him immediately made one the very next year after Mccarthy’s team quit on him.

Yes he was. He is the best passer in Big Ten history. He made a pro bowl in San Diego. He didn’t “bust out”. He hurt his throwing shoulder and they didn’t know if he was going to make a full recovery.

You’re the one revising history.

 

[Aerolithe_Lion]

Drew Brees suffered a serious injury. The chargers had a chance to draft Rivers and didn’t want to pass it up because nobody knew if Brees would recover from the injury.

He did.

You’re misremembering. The Brees injury that almost ended his career was 2005.

Philip Rivers was drafted in 2004; they had such a horrible record to draft first overall (took Manning, traded him for rivers) because Brees was one of the worst QBs in the NFL. He only started 10 games because he got benched after going 2-9. He was fully healthy when Rivers was added to the roster.

The Chargers deemed him a complete bust, and it was only after tempt starting so Rivers could learn as a backup that he had his 3100 yard pro bowl season

 

[HungryLion]

You’re misremembering. The Brees injury that almost ended his career was 2005.

Philip Rivers was drafted in 2004; they had such a horrible record to draft Rivers because Brees was one of the worst QBs in the NFL. He only started 10 games because he got benched after going 2-9. He was fully healthy when Rivers was added to the roster.

Ok so I misremembered that timeline. Saying he “busted out” is a total fabrication on your part.

You talk about his bad season and them
Having a top pick becusde of it. Then the following year Brees played very well.
Right after rivers was drafted Drew Brees made a pro bowl and the chargers went 11-4.

Just because a young QB has some struggles in their first few seasons doesn’t make them a “bust” that’s foolish.

All of this is besides the point. It’s asinine to give Payton credit for “reinventing” a QB. But then McCarthy gets zero credit for developing a QB like with Rodgers.

You can’t have it both ways. Particularly when both QB’s were successful QB’s in college and pretty highly drafted.

 

[Aerolithe_Lion]

Ok so I misremembered that timeline. Saying he “busted out” is a total fabrication on your part. Right after rivers was drafted Drew Brees made a pro bowl and the chargers went 11-4.

Just because a young QB has some struggles in their first few seasons doesn’t make them a “bust” that’s foolish.

When you take a Qb 32nd overall, then they draft your replacement 3 years later with the 1st(5th) overall pick because you’re playing bad, that is 100% your team accepting that you were a busted pick. He was given up on before his rookie contract was even over. No one would do that if they had any hope whatsoever that you were their future starter. He was, in San Diego’s eyes, a complete bust.

 

[HungryLion]

When you take a Qb 32nd overall, then they draft your replacement 3 years later with the 1st(5th) overall pick because you’re playing bad, that is 100% your team accepting that you were a busted pick. No one would do that if they had any hope whatsoever that you were their future starter.

And then you make a pro bowl immediately after all that…… hilarious how you want to remove that. Lol

The chargers FO being wrong doesn’t mean Brees wasn’t turning into a good QB. It means the FO was wrong.

But again you’re only focusing on one part of the argument. My entire point is you can’t credit Payton with Brees being “reinvented” and not give McCarthy any credit for Rodgers developing under his watch.

 

[Aerolithe_Lion]

And then you make a pro bowl immediately after all that…… hilarious how you want to remove that. Lol

That’s after they drafted his replacement. After he was deemed a bust. Yes he played well in 2004, but it was A) after San Diego had given up on him, and B) many tiers below how he played in New Orleans, where he was reinvented.

He went from awful pick to good player to historically dominant passer in those 3 sections of his career. Each was its own reinvention.

 

[HungryLion]

That’s after they drafted his replacement. After he was deemed a bust. Yes he played well in 2004, but it was A) after San Diego had given up on him, and B) many tiers below how he played in New Orleans, where he was reinvented.

He went from awful pick to good player to historically dominant passer in those 3 sections of his career. Each was its own reinvention.

Oh man. A QB develops and gets better over his career. Such a shocking event. Never seen that happen with anyone besides Brees.


Anyway if you just want to argue about Drew Brees early career and not actually discuss the point I was trying to make, then I’m done with the convo. This is just a pointless semantical argument about the word reinvent.

 

[Aerolithe_Lion]

Oh man. A QB develops and gets better over his career. Such a shocking event. Never seen that happens with anyone besides Brees.

Many QBs need a year or two to learn the position at the NFL level. But he was bad year 1, bad year 2, bad year 3, then mediocre year 4 that got him his PB invite. What other QB went from awful for most of their rookie contract, to mediocre, then to absolutely dominant on historic levels? He’s 1 of 1.

Drew Brees very likely does not turn into that player in San Diego, which would have been an inferior career to Rivers, meaning San Diego ultimately made the right choice at QB. Not because Rivers is viewed as the superior play today, but because they didn’t have Sean Payton as their head coach. With Norv Turner, Brees is someone else entirely.

 

[HungryLion]

Many QBs need a year or two to learn the position at the NFL level. But he was bad year 1, bad year 2, bad year 3, then mediocre year 4 that got him his PB invite. What other QB went from awful for most of their rookie contract, to mediocre, then to absolutely dominant on historic levels? He’s 1 of 1.

Drew Brees very likely does not turn into that player in San Diego, which would have been an inferior career to Rivers, meaning San Diego ultimately made the right choice at QB, not because Rivers is viewed as the superior play today, but because they didn’t have Sean Payton as their head coach. With Norv Turner, Brees is someone else entirely.

I’m not going to argue about whether Payton “reinvented” Brees or not. I will just agree to disagree.

I personally always believed in Brees and believe he would have been a great QB regardless. I’m willing to admit that having good coaching like Payton always is helpful rather than poor
Coaching.

To the actual point of my original post. Do you think it’s fair to give Payton full credit for reinventing Brees. But then McCarthy gets no credit for Rodgers performance under him, considering McCarthy would have been helping to develop and coach him and Rodgers never played a down in the league prior to McCarthy being there?

Is that fair? Because for Ross Tuckers list to have any merit. You would have to be discounting McCarthy’s resume due to the presence of Rodgers while simultaneously giving Payton full credit for his resume despite the presence of Brees. Both QB’s ultimately being hall of fame QB’s.

 

[Aerolithe_Lion]

I’m not going to argue about whether Payton “reinvented” Brees or not. I will just agree to disagree.

I personally always believed in Brees and believe he would have been a great QB regardless. I’m willing to admit that having good coaching like Payton always is helpful rather than poor
Coaching.

To the actual point of my original post. Do you think it’s fair to give Payton full credit for reinventing Brees. But then McCarthy gets no credit for Rodgers performance under him, considering McCarthy would have been helping to develop and coach him and Rodgers never played a down in the league prior to McCarthy being there?

Is that fair? Because for Ross Tuckers list to have any merit. You would have to be discounting McCarthy’s resume due to the presence of Rodgers while simultaneously giving Payton full credit for his resume despite the presence of Brees. Both QB’s ultimately being hall of fame QB’s.

That is not fair, but it also sounds like a made up argument. Who has ever said Mccarthy deserves no credit for developing Rodgers?

 

[StarOfGlory]

Its’s a tough pill to swallow but based on McCarthy’s Career success with the talent available, 21st is appropriate

What has Rodgers done without McCarthy? I'm not ready to put MM at 21st!

 

[HungryLion]

That is not fair, but it also sounds like a made up argument. Who has ever said Mccarthy deserves no credit for developing Rodgers?

How else would you justify having Payton at 4 on the list of top coaches and McCarthy at 21. Considering that both coaches resumes are almost identical with McCarthy’s being actually slightly better. Over essentially the same period of time in the same conference.

Plus it’s an argument I hear quite often outside of this thread when people want to argue McCarthy isn’t a good coach. That his success is attributed mostly to having Rodgers

 

[CowboyRoy]

I wouldn't say head and shoulders for either of them. They are essentially One of the same... Payton has 15 NFL seasons as a head coach; McCarthy has 16. Payton has a record of 152-89; McCarthy is 155-97. Payton has nine playoff seasons and is one game over . 500 (9-8) in those; McCarthy has 11 playoff seasons and is one game over (11-10)...

At the end of the day, it's about the wins/losses. Arguing about how the wins/losses came about is an argument nobody is going to win. I would rather have an enema than worrying about how a win/loss record came about.

Payton is the much better offensive mind and play caller.

Any GM takes payton over MM.

 

[AsthmaField]

the coach who replaced him immediately made one the very next year after Mccarthy’s team quit on him.

McCarthy’s last season in Green Bay was also Ted Thomason’s last season as Green Bay’s GM. He famously would spend almost no money in free agency, which is fine if you’re hitting on your draft picks. Unfortunately, Thompson had been missing badly in the draft for a long time.

Their talent had eroded and their defense in particular, had become a moribund group that simply weren’t very good. It is the real reason why Thompson “retired”. The roster was bad and the team was going to make changes.

The new GM (I won’t try to spell his name) came in at the same time as coach LaFleur did. The first thing that the new GM did was go on a huge free agency spending spree, especially on defense.

They signed Za’Darius Smith, Preston Smith, and Adrian Amos among others.

(Thompson’s last group of free agents in GB were: WR Jeff Janis, OT Ulrick John, TE Richard Rogers, and P Jake Schum, lol)

Had they brought in a bunch of good players like that 2019 group with McCarthy there, he certainly would have done better too.

I agree though that McCarthy’s message to the team was getting stale. He had just been there too long and it was time for a change. That happens in the NFL with many long time coaches.

It was probably a good change for GB… but that heavy influx of talent that year would have helped McCarthy immensely.

 

[Aerolithe_Lion]

How else would you justify having Payton at 4 on the list of top coaches and McCarthy at 21. Considering that both coaches resumes are almost identical with McCarthy’s being actually slightly better. Over essentially the same period of time in the same conference.

Plus it’s an argument I hear quite often outside of this thread when people want to argue McCarthy isn’t a good coach. That his success is attributed mostly to having Rodgers

I think up until 2016 their résumés were close. What happened at the end of GB was ugly, and Payton went out on an high note in NO. and then that after I don’t think Dallas is helping Mike’s case.

Remember Jason Garrett went 12-4 in 2014. Had a lost year in 2015 and then went 13-3 in 2016. After that he had 9-7, 10-6, 8-8. Those were considered bad years for how talented the roster was. Garrett was fired despite not having a losing record in 4 years because of how much the team was underachieveing.

Mike comes in in 2020 and has a lost year. Then he goes 12-5. This was what everyone expected that Dallas was supposed to be, he met expectations on a talented team. Then you lost that SF game at home. What happened in 2021 and 2022 in the playoffs were probably under achieving for what what the expectations with your roster.

I think most people here feel Dallas isn’t as far behind Philadelphia in total talent as the media portrays, but why was there a gap when comparing the 2021-2022 Cowboys and the 2022 Eagles? Is that not on the coaches to properly utilize the talent? 21 may be a tad low for McCarthy, but what has he done to deserve better recently? He won 12 games with a top 5 roster and a pair of quick playoff exits. Payton made the playoffs when Brees missed a ton of time in 2019 and 2020; McCarthy’s Packers team quit on him in 2018 and everyone accepted he couldn’t right the ship when Dak when down in 2020. He does present the appearance of someone who is somewhat limited in that department.

 

[Aerolithe_Lion]

McCarthy’s last season in Green Bay was also Ted Thomason’s last season as Green Bay’s GM. He famously would spend almost no money in free agency, which is fine if you’re hitting on your draft picks. Unfortunately, Thompson had been missing badly in the draft for a long time.

Their talent had eroded and their defense in particular, had become a moribund group that simply weren’t very good. It is the real reason why Thompson “retired”. The roster was bad.

The new GM (I won’t try to spell his name) came in at the same time as coach LaFleur did. The first thing that the new GM did was go on a huge free agency spending spree, especially on defense.

They signed Za’Darius Smith, Preston Smith, and Adrian Amos among others.

(Thompson’s last group of free agents in GB were: WR Jeff Janis, OT Ulrick John, TE Richard Rogers, and P Jake Schum, lol)

Had they brought in a bunch of good players like that with McCarthy there, he certainly would have done better too.

I agree though that McCarthy’s message to the team was getting stale. He had just been there too long and it was time for a change. That happens in the NFL with many long time coaches.

It was probably a good change for GB… but that heavy influx of talent that year would have helped McCarthy immensely.

And Payton’s team was historically cap straddled for 4-5 of his final seasons (and still are). They couldn’t have that free agent intake until Brees was off the books.

Green Bay also had a cupcake division for Mccarthy’s entire tenure. Who was the second best QB over that span? Stafford who won 0 playoff games? People talk about the AFC East in the Brady era, but the NFC North in the Rodgers era was just as inept. The Vikings made a fluke NFCCG in 2017 and were occasional wild card round participants outside of that. Mike Mccarthy’s 2018 season is what allowed Mitch Trubisky of all people to win the North.

The Packers had a free ride nearly every year. Then consider The NFC South had all 4 teams play in super bowls during Payton’s time. 2 MVP winning QBs in his division. Carolina and TB had made additional SBs right before he got there, and Atlanta was just in the 2004 NFCCG. It was a different contending team seemingly every year, but the NFCS was a slobberknocker. What would have been Payton’s legacy had his team been in the NFCN? Or the NFCE for that matter.