2006 Skins cap numbers

jksmith269

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I'm wondering where your getting your numbers

For example Chris Samuels

base salary 06 is 1mil

and he signed a new contract which has a SB of 15.75mil which prorates at 3mil per year for 5 seasons.

Lavar has a base salary of 545K and signed a contract with a SB of 20mil at the end of the 03 season which prorates over 7 years which is less than 3mil so your looking at 3.54mil plus any roster bonus which I don't think will be any where near 9mil. I think you have bad numbers.

I got the base salaries from NFLPA.org and his SB numbers from news articles
 

lkelly

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Can someone please repost that long, hysterically sappy piece that a Skins fan wrote about Gibbs' comeback? It was laden with so much mush about how the return to the golden era was inevitable and how young fans who hadn't witnessed Gibbs' genius in years past were in for a treat.

That truly was one of the most comical pieces of prose I've read in the past few years (at least in the "sports related" category).
 

Mr. S

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silverbear said:
I dunno, seems to me that being forced to cut a slew of players season in and season out is one sign of cap hell... having to trade Champ Bailey (though they got an excellent return for him) was indicative of cap hell... losing Antonio Pierce and Fred Smoot when they clearly didn't want to lose them is also indicative of cap hell...

Just for purposes of contrast, the only cuts the Cowboys made this year were players that they didn't think fit into their plans any more... none of those moves was cap motivated...

some of the players I mentioned were not Gibbs pickups, nor were they ones who really fit. Everyone knows Bowen is a good run-stuffer and relatively fast in the offensive backfield, but he is suspect in coverage. We were happy with his performance against Tampa, but I was somewhat glad when Andre Lott got the starting nod for a while, and Ryan Clark even seemed to be better in coverage.

Noble was also picked up by Spurrier, and has not been up to form yet, nor was he really that dominant for you guys. He has this year as a make or break year as he should be fully recovered and up to speed now, as his contract isnt too friendly.

Barrow is a potential cut due to his cap space and his health now, not because he didnt fit, and he sitll could be the starting MLB for 2005.

Now, these are potential cuts, lets look at some of our cuts this season. Morton didnt fit. Coles was our best receiver last year, but a best receiver with a numb toe (which he admitted to it hurting all the time) who posts 950 yards isnt hard to upgrade from. We may get rid of Gardner, again cause he doesnt fit our plans.

Most people dont seem to realize some of our depth signings, guys who have played well in scenarios and can fill in well. MLB Clifton Smith extended 2 years. Lemar Marshall extended for 3 years. Joe Salave'a extended for 3 years as well I think (and he is just as responsible for our defense being soo good in run stopping as Griffin is). Reynaldo Wynn actually converted some of his 2005 salary into bonus to help the team, as did Jansen, Brunell, Ramsey, Thomas. For DB depth, we signed a buncha guys that Gregg Williams thought would fit, Pierson Prioleau, Artrell Hawkins, Tony Dixon (though he may be camp fodder).
 

Mr. S

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silverbear said:
No, they don't... if the Skins suffer an injury or two on the OL, the quality of play will suffer badly... Rabach is a SLIGHT improvement over Raymer, but is hardly a top player at his position... after all, the offensive line he started for last year was ranked next to last in the league in total offense, in spite of having a former 2000 yard back... the return of Jansen will upgrade right tackle significantly, but other than that, it was status quo...

And Chris Samuels' play last year ranged from decent to pretty awful, while Derrick Dockery was a disappointment to me as a Horns fan, and Randy Thomas wasn't all that either... but if the Skins can keep that starting line intact for most of the season, they'll have a mediocre line, nothing more... certainly not a top 10 line...

And if they get bit by the injury bug, they're in deep doo-doo... at center, the replacement would be Raymer, and I'm sure you know how awful he was last year... at tackle, it would likely be one of the rookies, both of whom are unproven late rounders... at guard, it would be 90 year old Ray Brown...

Samuels let in only 1, count it, 1 Sack last season. His play was not "Elite" but it was still strong and solid. Thomas has been our best o-lineman for 2 seasons now, there is no reason to rag on him, he even comes back slightly injured and still dominates. Rabach I wont judge since he has not played yet, but other than Brunell, we have not gone wrong with many of our pickups yet, even when the league was bashing us for them (Griffin, Springs, Washington). Jansen obviously is a blessing to return. Im not a fan of Dockery, but hes been working to improve, and if not, ole man Brown and the 2 second year tackles can probably fit in now.

With injuries, honestly, you think your line would be as good if your best guy got injured? Sure, you may have better depth, but ole man Brown really did pretty solid, better than Raymer or Dockery. Raymer is obviously not good, but there may be other options as well up the coaches sleeve.

With what I said about Smoot, yeh I dont like he left, but he left for less than 2 million more (more of the money was salary in the first few years than our typical backloaded contracts). The signing bonuses offered were really close. Also, we sent him blitzing a few times, he could never tackle the way Springs could. Smoot was awesome in coverage, and has been a great guy off the field. Rogers wont be as good as Smoot as a rookie, but Rogers is stronger and tackles better, and may become our starting guy for years to come, just as Smoot/Bailey were supposed to.
 

dbair1967

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Gent said:
Losing Smoot could create a domino effect in their defense, however. I was under the impression that Shawn Springs was having a revival of his career, but after reading KC Joyner's analysis in the "The Football Scientist", it appears that Springs' good stats are largely due to luck. Joyner feels that Springs is not a good cornerback.


-Gent

Shawn Springs got a ten million dollar signing bonus and gave up a long bomb for a winning TD to a guy who was on the practie squad half the yr and makes around 200k

:lmao:

David
 

dbair1967

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Alexander said:
No, they didn't.

They reloaded with "Joe Gibbs" guys. They got rid of bad, untalented team cancers and replaced them with superior players.

Or so I read at "Extremeskins". :eek:

according to some of the real brains at extremeskins, the 2005 team has a very high probability of being 16-0 and being the most dominant team in league history

oh wait, wasnt that supposed to be the 2004 team with Joe Gibbs back? no, it was the 2002 team with the greatest offensive coach in history Steve Spurrier guiding them...no, it was the 2001 team with the great Marty Schottenheimer...uh wait, it was the 2000 Skins...err...gee

David
 

AdamJT13

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Mr. S said:
Samuels let in only 1, count it, 1 Sack last season.

STATS Inc. credits Samuels with 5.5 sacks allowed last season.
 

dbair1967

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Mr. S said:
Samuels let in only 1, count it, 1 Sack last season. His play was not "Elite" but it was still strong and solid.
.

Samuels belongs on anybody's "all overrated" list...the guy blocks like a pansy and gets beat like a drum...has been living off the rep of where he was drafted for years

the guy is an average player at best...I know its hard for blind loyalist Skins fans to believe, but the reason the Skins suck yr in and yr out is because the talent level of the team is mediocre to average at best

David
 

AdamJT13

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jksmith269 said:
I'm wondering where your getting your numbers

For example Chris Samuels

base salary 06 is 1mil

and he signed a new contract which has a SB of 15.75mil which prorates at 3mil per year for 5 seasons.

Lavar has a base salary of 545K and signed a contract with a SB of 20mil at the end of the 03 season which prorates over 7 years which is less than 3mil so your looking at 3.54mil plus any roster bonus which I don't think will be any where near 9mil. I think you have bad numbers.

I got the base salaries from NFLPA.org and his SB numbers from news articles

Arrington's roster bonus in 2006 is $6.5 million, and you're not including the prorations from their previous signing bonuses. The actual cap numbers are $12,045,982 for Arrington and $6,717,924 for Samuels.
 

silverbear

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Om said:
Convenient as it is for you to emply a classic straw man like that, SB, "us guys" are hardly a monolithic entity. Many of us fully expected Gibbs to need a couple of years to stop the bleeding and get the program turned around to the point of being a playoff contender again ... and said so.

Well, no block of fans is monolithic, I would have assumed that a thinking man would realize that I was talking about the vast majority of Skins fans...

And I'm sorry if that characterization offends you, but my experience was that most of the Skins fans I ran up against-- a not inconsiderable number, when you factor in that I live in the Shenandoah Valley, and moderate a rant board that seems to be dominated by Skins fans-- believed that the Skins were a good team last year, in fact a likely playoff team...

And yes, Om, the party line I got over and over and over again was "Gibbs is here, he's gonna pull a Parcells"... "the offensive line is going to be much better, Bugel will see to that"... I kept trying to tell them there's only so much ANY coach can do in the area of turning chicken **** into chicken salad...

And many of us look at the place the team is today, compare it to where it was on the day Gibbs was rehired, and see that progress moving apace. That's why these days I'm enjoying watching those of you (note the advised use of qualifier) still stolidly beating the drums of status-quo with a growing sense of bemusement.

Oh, I seem SOME improvement, but I think y'all still have serious problems at QB, WR and OL-- this year... and I think those problems are serious enough that any realistic Skins fan should be shickled titless with a .500 record...

Candidly, there has been little real progress in upgrading the talent base this offseason... in fact, there has been a clear, undeniable net loss of talent... many Skins fans recognize that, but fall back on the hope that greater continuity in the Gibbs system will translate into greater production...

Sorry, Jimmy Johnson had it right-- you win in the NFL with talent... you need playmakers...

I'll also note that it's not just me this time around, the mediots seem near-unanimous in their agreement that the Skins have taken a step backward this offseason... example-- I have seen a recent "power poll" that had the Skins ranked 30th in the NFL...

The Cowboys were ranked 12th in that poll... the Iggles were ranked 3rd...

And why I'm going to be enjoy continuing to follow your dissection of all things Commander over the next few seasons. :)

Well, if you'd followed my "dissection" over the last coupla seasons, you'd know that I did a really good job-- going into the season-- of telling Skins fans what the problems were... you wouldn't BELIEVE the abuse I took for telling them that their offensive line pretty much sucked last year, and that that OL would ensure a fairly toothless offense... though I didn't factor in how bad the QB play would be, even I was startled by how completely ineffective Brunell was, I was of course right... even the witless homers on the Rantatorium had to grudgingly admit that I'd called it right...

Of course, they're arguing with me about the exact same thing this year, telling me what a "significant" upgrade Rabach is at center, and how the return of Jon Jansen will make everything all better... it almost pains me to point out that my predictions last year came before Jon got hurt (who could have anticipated that, the guy was practically indestructible), but was predicated largely on a total lack of depth... the same lack of depth that still exists...

And when was the last time you remember ANY team gettin' through an entire season without an injury or two or three along the OL?? As for Rabach, my stock response is that last year was his first as a full-time starter-- and his team ranked next to last in the NFL in total offense, despite being blessed with a 2000 yard ballcarrier (in the recent past)... anytime you have a team that stuggles that much offensively, it is a dead moral certainty that their offensive line wasn't gettin' the job done...

Now, is it possible that I'm wrong about all of this?? Of course it is, if I was omniscient when it comes to pro football I'd be working in the business... but I believe, and I believe Joe Gibbs believes, that the key to building a good football team is building a dominating offensive line... well, Samuels is good (though his game seems to have regressed some in recent years, and he's certainly not the Pro Bowler he once was), Jansen is highly underrated (I'd just love to have him manning RT for the Cowboys), Randy Thomas is solid enough (though not a Pro Bowl talent)... meanwhile, as I've already stated, I don't think that Rabach is all that, and Dockery has been a disappointment to Commanders fans... and unless either Wilson or Molinaro turns out to be a better player than their late round draft status suggests they will (which happens), there is next to nothing in the way of quality depth...

Which is my long-winded way of saying if the Skins' offensive line stays healthy, they may be a middle of the pack line by today's NFL, but if they suffer much at the hands of the injury bug, they will again be one of the league's worst offensive lines...

And if that proves to be the case, their quarterbacking will likely be a serious problem again this year... in addition, I have to wonder if they'll able to be as effective defensively this year, given some key losses to that unit...

And just for the record, I make these criticisms not because I'm a Cowboys fan, and so predisposed to "hate" the Skins, but rather because I'm a FOOTBALL fan, a fairly serious football fan for more than 45 years now... and as a football fan, I have fairly well-developed theories about what you need to win in today's game, and in my estimation, the Skins are seriously deficient in a number of those necessities...

Though I'm a bit more optimistic about the Cowboys' chances this year, I laso have serious reservations about some of their deficiencies too, chief among them the quarterback position...
 

silverbear

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Om said:
My feeling is they're making steady progress rebuilding a moribund program, but are probably still a year away from being a real factor in the NFC beyond wildcard hopeful.

I'm honestly curious, Om-- exactly what "progress rebuilding" do you think the Skins have accomplished in this offseason?? I mean, the mediots don't know everything, but they've been consistently critical of the Skins' offseason... I have to say, I agree with them, from where I sit it sure looks like the Skins have taken a step backward with their talent base...

IOW, it appears to me that they lost more talent this offseason than they added... so please, tell me how you see the Skins improving themselves this offseason... if you do, I'll promise to debate your points as calmly and fairly as I can...

Incidentally, I don't disagree with the last half of that sentence; with a good offseason next year, the Skins might indeed be poised to become a playoff contender again... but they're gonna need a better offseason than the one they've had this year...
 

silverbear

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Mr. S said:
Now, these are potential cuts, lets look at some of our cuts this season. Morton didnt fit.

So, you're saying the Skins made a mistake in signing him?? Sounds right to me, but the logical followup is to inquire what makes you so certain that the players signed this year weren't also mistakes??

Coles was our best receiver last year, but a best receiver with a numb toe (which he admitted to it hurting all the time) who posts 950 yards isnt hard to upgrade from.

Oh yeah, 90 catch receivers-- particularly 90 catch receivers who had pretty lousy quarterbacks-- grow on trees... that's why Coles was 6th in the league in receptions last year, 11th the year before, and 12th in 2002...

You want the complete list of WRs who have caught more passes than Coles' 261 over the last 3 years??

Marvin Harrison, 323 receptions...
Torry Holt, 302 receptions...
Hines Ward, 287 receptions...
Derrick Mason, 270 receptions...
Randy Moss, 266 receptions...

NOT included on that list are:

Joe Horn, 260 receptions...
Terrell Owens, 257 receptions...
Chad Johnson, 254 receptions...
Eric Moulds, 252 receptions...

And of course, Santana Moss, 149 receptions...

Only a homer would claim that it will be easy to upgrade from the receiver with the 6th most receptions in the NFL over the last 3 years... only a mindless home would try to claim that this upgrade can be accomplished with a WR who caught 112 fewer passes over the same span of time...

We may get rid of Gardner, again cause he doesnt fit our plans.

Explain to me why a WR who has averaged nearly 57 catches a season, for nearly 750 yards a season, wouldn't fit into your plans?? Especially when you're replacing him with an older, smaller wideout who has 62 fewer catches and 6 fewer TDs over those 4 years (David Patten)...

Oh yeah, replacing Gardner and Coles with Moss and Patten is a MAJOR upgrade...

Most people dont seem to realize some of our depth signings, guys who have played well in scenarios and can fill in well. MLB Clifton Smith extended 2 years.

A player with 1 career NFL assisted tackle... exactly what scenario did he play well in, and what on God's green earth makes you certain he "can fill in well"??

Lemar Marshall extended for 3 years.

44 career games, 88 career tackles... 2 career sacks, 1 career pass defensed...

Joe Salave'a extended for 3 years as well I think (and he is just as responsible for our defense being soo good in run stopping as Griffin is).

73 career games, 68 career tackles... only 19 of those last year... 7 career sacks...

Reynaldo Wynn actually converted some of his 2005 salary into bonus to help the team,

121 career games, 262 career tackles... 21 career sacks...

ALL of these players are mediocre, and some of them don't rise to that level...

as did Jansen, Brunell, Ramsey, Thomas.

Meanwhile, who have the Cowboys had to approach about converting salary into bonus to "help the team"?? Doing that is a BAD thing, unless you're cap-strapped; it just creates more problems down the road...

This is a lesson we Cowboys fans had driven home very forcefully, not too long ago... it's a less you Skins fans are just starting to learn...

For DB depth, we signed a buncha guys that Gregg Williams thought would fit, Pierson Prioleau,

The same Pierson Prioleau who was put on the bench by Izell Reese?? You know, the same Izell Reese the Cowboys signed a few weeks ago??

The same Pierson Prioleau who has ONE interception in 82 career games played??

Artrell Hawkins, Tony Dixon (though he may be camp fodder).

You'd better hope that Dixon is camp fodder, or that will be proof positive that the Skins' defensive backfield is in deep doo-doo...

Bluntly, of all the players you've listed here, the only two that would even remotely interest me if I was running the Cowboys are Hawkins and Salave'a... and even they are nothing more than journeymen...

Contrast that to Jason Ferguson, Anthony Henry, Marco Rivera, Aaron Glenn, Izell Reese...
 

silverbear

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Mr. S said:
Samuels let in only 1, count it, 1 Sack last season.

I see AdamJT13 has already laid waste to that lie... and of course, you don't mention how he fared in the running game; well, we'll just say that Clinton Portis averaged 5.5 yards per carry his first 2 years in Denver, 3.9 yards per carry with the Skins last year... that should tell you all you need to know about the quality of the run blocking he received...

His play was not "Elite" but it was still strong and solid.

No, it wasn't... it was up and down like a yo-yo... this is the second straight season you could say that about him...

Thomas has been our best o-lineman for 2 seasons now, there is no reason to rag on him, he even comes back slightly injured and still dominates.

Ahhhh, that explains all his Pro Bowl appearances... it also explains why the Skins have been able to protect their quarterbacks so well against pressure up the middle, and why Portis was suddenly able to run wild between the tackles...

The longer you argue, the more your credibility sinks, homer...

Rabach I wont judge since he has not played yet,

He HAS played... and his team was ranked even lower offensively than the Skins were last year... from what I read, Gibbs likes him because he's mobile, able to get out to the linebacker... but he is pretty weak at the point of attack...

but other than Brunell, we have not gone wrong with many of our pickups yet,

John Hall... Laveraneus Coles... Chad Morton... shall I continue??

Im not a fan of Dockery, but hes been working to improve, and if not, ole man Brown and the 2 second year tackles can probably fit in now.

How exactly do you figure two TACKLES can fill in if Dockery disappoints again??

As for Dockery "working hard", permit this long-time Longhorns fan to tell you that if he is, it's the first time in his career, college or pro... that was always the knock on Derrick, that he was not possessed of the greatest work ethic...

With injuries, honestly, you think your line would be as good if your best guy got injured?

Nope, but we'd still have 2 other guys who have played in the Pro Bowl the last 2 years, since you can say that about Larry Allen, Flozell Adams and Marco Rivera... and how many Pro Bowl appearances have the Skins' offensive linemen had over that time??

Sure, you may have better depth

"May have"?? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...

but ole man Brown really did pretty solid

Yeah, he's a freak of nature... he's also the only backup worth a hammered crap (unless either Wilson or Molinaro proves to be somewhat better than their late round draft status suggests they'll be, which is always possible)...

Raymer is obviously not good, but there may be other options as well up the coaches sleeve.

Yeah, they've got mighty Lennie Friedman... all 285 pounds of him... surely you remember how he got tossed around like a rag doll for the Skins every time he entered the game...

Rogers wont be as good as Smoot as a rookie, but Rogers is stronger and tackles better, and may become our starting guy for years to come, just as Smoot/Bailey were supposed to.

I have a hunch that Carlos will develop into a solid NFL player... I also have a hunch it won't happen this year, given the current state of his ankle...
 
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