2009 Cowboys vs. 2009 Giants

[firehawk350]

I don't have a horse in this race, but I thought I'd comment on a couple of things.

I wouldn't expect much from Canty other than holding his own against the run, he plays too tall to mount much of a pass-rush, and it will be even harder when he's going up against squatty OGs and Cs inside at DT, Bernard, meh, but you do have a good group

The Giants DL coach has turned crap into gold a couple of times before. We'll see.

Boley can rush the passer, but c'mon now, he's more of a sideline-to-sideline player and a guy who can drop into coverage very well, Sintim is a major threat though

there isn't that much that seperates Igor from Canty, our coaches have said so, and we drafted 2 OLBs who combined for 25 sacks last year, I think we'll be ok w/o Ellis

I wouldn't take the coaches word for it, you can't expect them to come out and say, yeah, we've seriously downgraded.

I also wouldn't hang your hat on your draft picks either. They'll be lucky if they combine for half of Ellis' production.

and then we have former, 1st round choice Anthony Spencer who actually overtook Ellis as a starter last year

No, he didn't. He didn't start a single game last year. And even so, I wouldn't hang your hat on his 34 tackles and 1.5 sacks.

that's what are gameplan is going to be too, Phillip's Ds are always aggressive, but the #1 priority is stopping the run

I disagree. A 1 gap system like you play is designed to penetrate into the backfield, namely to get the QB. You give up running lanes to a RB with good vision. Hence the reason why Baltimore scored those two long TDs in the 4th (which, BTW, Spencer was mostly at fault for).

on O, getting rid of TO allows Romo to revert to his '07 form where he spreads the ball all around the field, and we have a great group of backs too, Felix Jones is going to turn into one of the most dynamic backs in all the NFL IMO

We'll see. A lot of 2007 was predicated on having TO draw double teams and being able to keep teams off-balance. You'll have to be a more balanced team because you won't have a top-2 receiver on the team.

 

[BBWC]

Re: the Giants, though, you're not at all concerned about losing your DC? Whatever you may think about your personnel, you're field position game changed dramatically when Plexico shot himself in the leg. On top of that you lose a star coach--that's going to have an impact on next season. In a tight division, even a game drop-off is going to matter.

Of course there is a concern, Spags was a great defensive mind. But I think we'll get by just fine with Sheridan. The attacking scheme will remain intact and we've made considerable upgrades to our personnel over the previous year.

This is a championship caliber team with most of key pieces in place from our Super Bowl team, losing Plaxico sucks but if any team has the grit and character to adjust to his absence its this team.

 

[firehawk350]

Of course there is a concern, Spags was a great defensive mind. But I think we'll get by just fine with Sheridan. The attacking scheme will remain intact and we've made considerable upgrades to our personnel over the previous year.

This is a championship caliber team with most of key pieces in place from our Super Bowl team, losing Plaxico sucks but if any team has the grit and character to adjust to his absence its this team.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. When the Chargers lost Wade to the Cowboys, they went from being a top-5 defense to middle of the pack in one year. Don't underestimate the power of a great DC.

 

[Idgit]

I don't have a horse in this race, but I thought I'd comment on a couple of things. ..

Commanders fan can't say he doesn't have a horse in the race in a comparison that includes the Cowboys. The team's really high on Spencer and clearly perfectly happy to hang our hat on him. We'll see how it turns out. Olshansky was a good signing considering the alternative and we'll have to live with that. TO hasn't been a top-2 WR for a long, long time, and the player OCs around the league scheme around is Jason Witten, anyway. Hands down. For the record, you're speaking out of your *** re: our run defense.

Of course there is a concern, Spags was a great defensive mind. But I think we'll get by just fine with Sheridan. The attacking scheme will remain intact and we've made considerable upgrades to our personnel over the previous year.

This is a championship caliber team with most of key pieces in place from our Super Bowl team, losing Plaxico sucks but if any team has the grit and character to adjust to his absence its this team.

I agree that the Giants are likely to be one of the best teams in the NFC. The Eagles and Cowboys are also on that list, though. One of those three teams is going to turn into a pumpkin this season. I go back and forth on which one I thin it will be.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

I don't have a horse in this race, but I thought I'd comment on a couple of things.

that's a ****ing lie

The Giants DL coach has turned crap into gold a couple of times before. We'll see.

no ****

I wouldn't take the coaches word for it, you can't expect them to come out and say, yeah, we've seriously downgraded.

so I should take a biased Commander and Giant fan's word for it?

I also wouldn't hang your hat on your draft picks either. They'll be lucky if they combine for half of Ellis' production.

No, he didn't. He didn't start a single game last year. And even so, I wouldn't hang your hat on his 34 tackles and 1.5 sacks.

Ellis' starting was cursory, he was replaced on running downs, which are usually 1st down

take away Ellis, Spencer gets 0 sacks this year, and the rookies bust, that's still 46.5 sacks (minus Canty's 3), good for 4th place in the NFL last 2 years

disagree. A 1 gap system like you play is designed to penetrate into the backfield, namely to get the QB. You give up running lanes to a RB with good vision. Hence the reason why Baltimore scored those two long TDs in the 4th (which, BTW, Spencer was mostly at fault for).

that's well and good, but Wade Phillips has come out and said that stopping the run is his #1 priority, just look at his San Diego Ds who annually ranked top 5 against the rush, Ds Igor Olshansky coincidentally started in

We'll see. A lot of 2007 was predicated on having TO draw double teams and being able to keep teams off-balance. You'll have to be a more balanced team because you won't have a top-2 receiver on the team.

we will be more balanced this year

 

[Idgit]

I wouldn't be so sure about that. When the Chargers lost Wade to the Cowboys, they went from being a top-5 defense to middle of the pack in one year. Don't underestimate the power of a great DC.

Yep. It doesn't take too many bad decisions or slow adjustments to make a good unit mediocre in this league. The Giants defense is going to be put in some lower-percentage situations this year, and we'll see how they perform. For most of last year they looked like world-beaters, though, and they're definitely a deep and talented unit.

 

[BBWC]

I wouldn't be so sure about that. When the Chargers lost Wade to the Cowboys, they went from being a top-5 defense to middle of the pack in one year. Don't underestimate the power of a great DC.

Yeah, but they replaced him with Ted Cottrell one of the absolute worst defensive coordinators in the league. I don't know how good Bill Sheridan will be, but I'm going to give him the benefit of doubt.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

I also wouldn't hang your hat on your draft picks either. They'll be lucky if they combine for half of Ellis' production.

Greg Ellis had eight sacks last year.

When Phillips was at San Diego, a single rookie fourth rounder named Shaun Phillips had four sacks. And that was with definition-of-journeyman Steve Foley at OLB, who was less talented than Anthony Spencer.

I'm enjoying the HOF-level homerism of the Giants fan, though. Yes, I'm sure the Panthers game the next week was the reason you didn't mind letting Eli take a beating with eight sacks -- eight! -- in that one game.

Oh, and how did that grit and character work for you against the Eagles last year? You know, when it counted.

 

[AsthmaField]

And I guess nobody's respecting the Commanders. We only finished 1 game ahead of Washington last year. The Skins added a dominant player in Haynesworth, and they drafted a pretty solid prospect in Arakpo. The Skins ranked 4th in total defense, and 6th in PPG in 2008, and they could be much better this year. The Skins were a team that played better than they were on paper, now they're starting to look good on paper too.

The skins did add Haynesworth who is a good player. Not worth what they paid, but he is good if motivated.

Orakpo was a solid pick at #13 too... however, the Skins are playing him at SOLB. If they continue to play him there, he's going to have little to no impact this season. He will be replacing M Washington and I doubt seriously that he will have much success covering backs and TE's. Can you imagine Orakpo trying to cover Witten, Felix, or Martellus Bennett? I can't. He's going to be eaten alive if they try that. Not to mention that they are taking away the one thing that he can do well (rushing the QB). The one thing that got him drafted at the top of round 1.

He is a good prospect, but as for how much he will help them this season at SOLB... they would have been MUCH better off with Washington still manning that spot and Orakpo taking his snaps in a DE rotation.

However, the main reason Washington is going nowhere is because of their offense. With Campbell at QB, it is going to be more of the same for them.

You mention that they only won a single game less than Dallas last year... but you don't mention that they won them all at the beginning of the year. Early on teams didn't know how Zorn would be using the players and what plays he would use. He wisely had campbell using plays that had little decision making (for the QB) involved. He had one or two option plays and a good running game.

Once defenses figured out what they were doing, they put a stop to those simple reads for Campbell and stopped Portis, and made Campbell try to beat them. As you can tell from the second half of last year, he couldn't. Heck, he couldn't even beat teams like Cincy. Just look at who they lost to in the last 8 games of last year.

They better hope that their defense is incredible... because that's the only way they're going to win many games in '09.

 

[Idgit]

Greg Ellis had eight sacks last year.

When Phillips was at San Diego, a single rookie fourth rounder named Shaun Phillips had four sacks. And that was with definition-of-journeyman Steve Foley at OLB, who was less talented than Anthony Spencer.

I'm enjoying the HOF-level homerism of the Giants fan, though. Yes, I'm sure the Panthers game the next week was the reason you didn't mind letting Eli take a beating with eight sacks -- eight! -- in that one game.

Oh, and how did that grit and character work for you against the Eagles last year? You know, when it counted.

They let Eli take the sacks because the game didn't matter. Or was it the QB that didn't matter? So hard to say.

I give Giants fan leeway in being a homer for his team for another year. They've earned it. Hell, I spend 90% of my time on this board trying to encourage enthusiasm from Cowboy fans. I'm not going to knock it too hard from a fan whose team has actually won something recently.

 

[BBWC]

I'm enjoying the HOF-level homerism of the Giants fan, though. Yes, I'm sure the Panthers game the next week was the reason you didn't mind letting Eli take a beating with eight sacks -- eight! -- in that one game.

Don't put words in my mouth, my point was in reference to the fact that the Cowboys have not beaten the Giants when it mattered most. The fact remains that last years game was next to meaningless for the Giants.

Oh, and how did that grit and character work for you against the Eagles last year? You know, when it counted.

World's better than it worked out for the Cowboys I'll say. We gave the Eagles a tough fight, two missed field goals, and a great defensive effort until our beat up defensive line finally faltered late. It would have been a difficult game even with Plaxico considering the high winds.

 

[firehawk350]

that's a ****ing lie

I hate you both. Would it be better if I said I hope both horses fall?

no ****

so I should take a biased Commander and Giant fan's word for it?

Stop being so dense. I never said you should take my word for it or anybody's word for it. I haven't even put forth my opinion on Olshansky vs. Canty, all I'm saying is that saying a coach said it provides very little in the terms of credibility (unless it's a team which isn't involved with either player).

Ellis' starting was cursory, he was replaced on running downs, which are usually 1st down

take away Ellis, Spencer gets 0 sacks this year, and the rookies bust, that's still 51 sacks

That's pretty sad then. To only amass 34 tackles and 1.5 sacks as a 3-4 OLB playing 67% of the snaps. Regardless, if you think simple addition and subtraction like that holds any water, you should really learn more about football. Without a legit pass rush threat from the other side, teams can now double Ware. He'll undoubtedly beat some of those, but you can't pretend that won't affect his ability to provide pressure.

that's well and good, but Wade Phillips has come out and said that stopping the run is his #1 priority, just look at his San Diego Ds who annually ranked top 5 against the rush

He should play a scheme designed to do that then.

FYI, you ranked 12th in YPC, 21st in total rushing yards allowed and allowed the two longest runs of the season (82 yards twice).

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categoryst...true&Submit=Go&tabSeq=2&role=OPP&d-447263-p=1

we will be more balanced this year

We'll see. Jason Garrett has been in love with the pass and Jerry Jones came out and said you are going to make the offense more "Romo-friendly". I doubt he meant by taking the ball out of his hands more.

 

[firehawk350]

Yeah, but they replaced him with Ted Cottrell one of the absolute worst defensive coordinators in the league. I don't know how good Bill Sheridan will be, but I'm going to give him the benefit of doubt.

Then you are horribly biased and that undermines a lot of what you say. Unless of course you can provide some evidence to why you think that way.

 

[firehawk350]

Greg Ellis had eight sacks last year.

When Phillips was at San Diego, a single rookie fourth rounder named Shaun Phillips had four sacks. And that was with definition-of-journeyman Steve Foley at OLB, who was less talented than Anthony Spencer.

I'm enjoying the HOF-level homerism of the Giants fan, though. Yes, I'm sure the Panthers game the next week was the reason you didn't mind letting Eli take a beating with eight sacks -- eight! -- in that one game.

Oh, and how did that grit and character work for you against the Eagles last year? You know, when it counted.

I'm not a Giants fan. Regardless, you can't EXPECT a low-drafted rookie to put up anything resembling a decent pass rush in the first year. It's as counter-factually incorrect as expecting a rookie receiver to break through. It happens but not often.

 

[ScipioCowboy]

You're the only one on this thread that has actually tried to engage me with some smart football analysis, instead of the ignorant rants this thread is filled with, so let me just thank you in advance.

You raise a good point about teams getting by with talent deficiencies for a while before defenses make the necessary adjustments. Fortunately the Giants have plenty of talent, just not a lot of experience. This idea that an offense can't be successful without a true number one wideout has been proven false time after time.

And just as defenses can make adjustments, so can offenses themselves. This is going to be a very different offense to the one the Giants have fielded the past few years, but different doesn't always correlate to worse.

And I feel like I've had this Canty/Olshansky debate about a hundred times now, stats are useless in comparing these guys. Do you actually think coaching staffs base their valuations of a player on stats alone? This is not baseball, you learn about a player in the film room, so lets put the facts on the table and see if we can't find a difference between these two players.

The Commanders, Giants, Packers and Seahawks were all interested in Canty. The Giants scouting department is in love with this guys potential, he's versatile and will be used in multiple positions for the Giants, he's also a great locker room guy, a guy who Parcells gave nothing but praise to.

Olshansky was given his walking papers by the Chargers, a team that was in need of a DE, the made absolutely no attempt to sign him, in fact they wanted him out. He was benched last season because his coaching staff believed he quit on the team, he was also a pariah in the locker room.

So yeah, stats don't tell the whole story. Having a meat head that's obsessed with himself in the locker room and willing to quit on the team if things go south should be a concern. There is a reason there was almost no interest in the guy around the league.

Stats may not be the source of all truth and absolute knowledge, but they're hardly useless.

Unfortunately, the following exchange is common to Internet message boards: Poster A asserts that one player is better than some other player. Poster B refutes the assertion with statistical data. Poster A rebuts with the statement that stats are "meaningless" or "useless", but fails to provide an actual case for his own position.

In my opinion, you can only ignore stats if you have other sources of fact to replace it; otherwise, you're making an unsubstantiated claim. Merely citing the flaws with statistical analysis is not sufficient evidence for your position.

There was a reason the Giants were the only team willing to shell out $42 million for Chris Canty -- he's a solid but unspectacular player. He's not a dominant pass rusher, and he's seldom disruptive.

Many people claim that Canty's position as a 3-4 defensive end curtailed his explosiveness and his ability to make plays. This simply isn't the case. Wade Phillips' defense is a one-gap scheme, meaning the linemen are responsible for attacking gaps rather than taking on blocks; no scheme is more conducive to creating penetration and negative yardage plays than Wade Phillips'.

Furthermore, Canty was not limited to a three man line; when the Cowboys would send in their nickel and dime packages, they would line up in a four man line with Canty at defensive tackle. Yet, despite being surrounded by pro bowlers (Demarcus Ware, Jay Ratliff, and Greg Ellis), Canty never amassed more than 3.5 sacks in a season.

Thus far, Canty has never demonstrated the explosiveness to be a truly dominant player. You're free to argue the merits of Canty's unrealized talent and potential, but remember this: Over the past two years, the Cowboys have been billed as the most talented team in the league. Their incessant failure to win a play off game has been explained away as chronic underachievement. But this is merely an excuse. As the great Bill Parcells once proclaimed, you are what you're record says you are

Talent is meaningless until it's manifested on the field of play -- this is true for the Dallas Cowboys, Chris Canty, and the Giants' young group of receivers.

 

[BBWC]

Then you are horribly biased and that undermines a lot of what you say. Unless of course you can provide some evidence to why you think that way.

Giving your coaching staff the benefit of doubt that they won't be as bad as Ted Cottrell is horribly biased? In what respect? Ted Cottrell has been run out of town from New York, Minnesota and now San Diego. So I'm supposed to hope Bill Sheridan will match that level of incompetence?

He's been a respected coach for the Giants for years, he was our linebackers coach the last couple of years under Spags who gave the guy a ringing endorsement, he gave Spags advice on blitz packages to call during games as well. So yeah, I'm going to continue giving him the benefit of doubt that he will serve as an adequate replacement...

 

[dstew60105]

The Giants had 42 sacks last year despite losing Strahan to retirement and Osi to injury for the year, that's pretty amazing when you really think about it. We've added Osi, Benard and Canty to the equation now, we have the deepest defensive line rotation in the league with 7 potential starters.

We also had absolutely no pass rush from our OLB's, we added a proven pass rusher in Boley, and drafted a SLB in the 2nd round that led his conference in sacks. The Cowboys 59 sacks were very impressive, but I don't see you repeating that number, not with the loss of Canty and the potential loss of Ellis. And I feel very confident we'll do better than 42 this year.

The Giants are all about the run, we run to set up the pass, we run to set up the run. That's what we do, reading some of the posts' on this thread you'd think the Giants will be lucky to score more than 10 points a game next year. We have weapons, Eli will spread the ball around, the coaching staff will make adjustment, and our passing game will get by. And we'll still run the ball down teams throats.

Not when it counts.

In really the only game that was apples to apples last year your beloved Giants ran for a whopping 72 yards at Dallas in December.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

I hate you both. Would it be better if I said I hope both horses fall?

you hate the Cowboys more

Stop being so dense. I never said you should take my word for it or anybody's word for it. I haven't even put forth my opinion on Olshansky vs. Canty, all I'm saying is that saying a coach said it provides very little in the terms of credibility (unless it's a team which isn't involved with either player).

that's pretty convenient

btw, Wade Phillips has coached both Igor and Canty, so his opinion is more than just lip-service

That's pretty sad then. To only amass 34 tackles and 1.5 sacks as a 3-4 OLB playing 67% of the snaps. Regardless, if you think simple addition and subtraction like that holds any water, you should really learn more about football. Without a legit pass rush threat from the other side, teams can now double Ware. He'll undoubtedly beat some of those, but you can't pretend that won't affect his ability to provide pressure.

who says he won't have help from Spencer on the otherside? are you telling me that out of Spencer, Brandon Williams and Victor Butler, not one will step up?

guys Wade Phillips has scouted and given the OK sign to?

He should play a scheme designed to do that then.

FYI, you ranked 12th in YPC, 21st in total rushing yards allowed and allowed the two longest runs of the season (82 yards twice).

he does, if you look at Wade Phillips' entire coaching career, '08 was an aberration

We'll see. Jason Garrett has been in love with the pass and Jerry Jones came out and said you are going to make the offense more "Romo-friendly". I doubt he meant by taking the ball out of his hands more.

when that means he will have less opportunities to get hit, you bet it does

we have 3 talented backs, arguably the best TE in football, we will be more balanced this year

 

[AsthmaField]

I'm not a Giants fan. Regardless, you can't EXPECT a low-drafted rookie to put up anything resembling a decent pass rush in the first year. It's as counter-factually incorrect as expecting a rookie receiver to break through. It happens but not often.

I do agree that it doesn't happen often. However, if I had to bet on one guy getting a mid-round rookie some sacks... it probably would be Wade Phillips. Buddy Ryan also had a knack for finding good defensive guys. Some coaches simply have a knack for it. Phillips definitely has it.

If either B Williams or V Butler see many snaps... I honestly expect to see some sack production from them. Not because they're awesome... but because Phillips is using them in his scheme.

As always, JMO.

 

[firehawk350]

The skins did add Haynesworth who is a good player. Not worth what they paid, but he is good if motivated.

We'll see. He hasn't ballooned up yet which is a good indication but still...

Orakpo was a solid pick at #13 too... however, the Skins are playing him at SOLB. If they continue to play him there, he's going to have little to no impact this season. He will be replacing M Washington and I doubt seriously that he will have much success covering backs and TE's. Can you imagine Orakpo trying to cover Witten, Felix, or Martellus Bennett? I can't. He's going to be eaten alive if they try that. Not to mention that they are taking away the one thing that he can do well (rushing the QB). The one thing that got him drafted at the top of round 1.

He is a good prospect, but as for how much he will help them this season at SOLB... they would have been MUCH better off with Washington still manning that spot and Orakpo taking his snaps in a DE rotation.

My understanding is they'll be using him much in the same way they used Washington. If he DOES do any coverage, it'll be in the flats which he would have had to do at DE anyways on occasion. For a good portion of it, he'll be rushing the QB and trying to get into the backfield. Using him as a LB keeps OTs off of him and allows him to take advantage of generally favorable match-ups (TEs and RBs). That's just my understanding, we'll see when the bullets are live.

However, the main reason Washington is going nowhere is because of their offense. With Campbell at QB, it is going to be more of the same for them.

You mention that they only won a single game less than Dallas last year... but you don't mention that they won them all at the beginning of the year. Early on teams didn't know how Zorn would be using the players and what plays he would use. He wisely had campbell using plays that had little decision making (for the QB) involved. He had one or two option plays and a good running game.

Once defenses figured out what they were doing, they put a stop to those simple reads for Campbell and stopped Portis, and made Campbell try to beat them. As you can tell from the second half of last year, he couldn't. Heck, he couldn't even beat teams like Cincy. Just look at who they lost to in the last 8 games of last year.

They better hope that their defense is incredible... because that's the only way they're going to win many games in '09.

Yup, that's exactly the reason the Skins went down. Had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that they lost their perennial pro-bowl LT to injury and had their star RB injured for a good portion of the second half of the season. Absolutely nothing.