2009 Cowboys vs. 2009 Giants

[Chocolate Lab]

I'm not a Giants fan. Regardless, you can't EXPECT a low-drafted rookie to put up anything resembling a decent pass rush in the first year. It's as counter-factually incorrect as expecting a rookie receiver to break through. It happens but not often.

No kidding. I was obviously addressing BBWC.

And hey mods, I love that little piece of nonsensical redundancy "Counter-Factually Incorrect". Can you put that under my av? The 8 reps thing as a nod to Felix's urban legend bench performance is a little stale.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

And there's no way in the world Wade is biased, right? Coaches NEVER pimp players (*cough* Tank Johnson *cough*).

and there's no way people who don't know Igor or Canty, don't know what the **** they're talking about? there's nothing that states that Canty is so monumentally better than Igor

don't teams make free agent, signing mistakes all the time?

Your premise is that Wade knows defensive talent and because he knows defensive talent, these guys HAVE to be good. Forget that two are low drafted rookies and the other is average 2.25 sacks a year. And it's not like Ware is a new addition, he played opposite Spence during Spencer's entire career and Spencer hasn't done squat yet.

I never said they all are going to be good, the 1st thing I said is that our pass-rush shouldn't fall off the face of the Earth because we're getting rid of Ellis, that at least one of the 3 players is going to be just fine as a pass-rusher opposite Ware

Wow, you are full of fail. There are 6 gaps, you forgot about off-tackle. And that's not even taking the FB or a TE into account. Of course, it would work in a 4 wide, but you'd leave the receivers completely uncovered. Any QB worth his salt would see that and isolate the receivers on the OLBs.

I didn't forget about off-tackle, those are the OLB's responsibilities

isolate the receivers on the OLBs? that's genius! I wonder why teams rarely do that??

Taking on a block instead of shooting a gap? Two gap instead of one gap? But I thought the one gap scheme was the greatest defensive idea since the blitz was created... You just proved my point.

you should really stop putting words in people's mouths, I never said one-gap was the greatest, I just countered your foolish assertion that it can't be used to stop the run, when that's Wade Phillips' scheme, which has been PROVEN to be able to stop the run

Show me one place where anybody with offensive authority indicated that you'll run more. At this point, it's conjection.

it's about as much conjecture as assuming the offensive scheme will remain the same, except for my conjecture is rooted in common sense

why are we going to continue such an uneven pass-to-run ratio that doomed our season last year? only a gay, Commander fan who wants Dallas to fail is going to believe that

 

[Bob Sacamano]

No kidding. I was obviously addressing BBWC.

And hey mods, I love that little piece of nonsensical redundancy "Counter-Factually Incorrect". Can you put that under my av? The 8 reps thing as a nod to Felix's urban legend bench performance is a little stale.

mods, can I have "Rock Cartrwright doesn't play special teams for the Commanders" underneath my s/n too?

 

[Rampage]

You're the only one on this thread that has actually tried to engage me with some smart football analysis, instead of the ignorant rants this thread is filled with, so let me just thank you in advance.

You raise a good point about teams getting by with talent deficiencies for a while before defenses make the necessary adjustments. Fortunately the Giants have plenty of talent, just not a lot of experience. This idea that an offense can't be successful without a true number one wideout has been proven false time after time.

And just as defenses can make adjustments, so can offenses themselves. This is going to be a very different offense to the one the Giants have fielded the past few years, but different doesn't always correlate to worse.

And I feel like I've had this Canty/Olshansky debate about a hundred times now, stats are useless in comparing these guys. Do you actually think coaching staffs base their valuations of a player on stats alone? This is not baseball, you learn about a player in the film room, so lets put the facts on the table and see if we can't find a difference between these two players.

The Commanders, Giants, Packers and Seahawks were all interested in Canty. The Giants scouting department is in love with this guys potential, he's versatile and will be used in multiple positions for the Giants, he's also a great locker room guy, a guy who Parcells gave nothing but praise to.

Olshansky was given his walking papers by the Chargers, a team that was in need of a DE, the made absolutely no attempt to sign him, in fact they wanted him out. He was benched last season because his coaching staff believed he quit on the team, he was also a pariah in the locker room.

So yeah, stats don't tell the whole story. Having a meat head that's obsessed with himself in the locker room and willing to quit on the team if things go south should be a concern. There is a reason there was almost no interest in the guy around the league.

the reigning defensive player of the year was a guy who was cut several times and nobody wanted him. you're gonna be disapointed in Canty. I thought at 1st Canty would do really well in with the giants because he will have pass rushers all around him. but than again I thought he was playing in between 2 guys(Ware and Ratliff) who combined for 27 and a half sacks last season.

 

[DFWJC]

No doubt, if it's just the Cowboys vs the Giants straight up...we (da Boys) are pretty much even. But there is a 16 game schedule and playoffs to played.

Here are few other points:

* I think the main thing right now is that the jury is still out on the head coaching spot. They have a very good one and we have one who some say should already be gone.

* They were missing 2 time Pro Bowler Osi Umenyiora last season. He is 10-15 sacks waiting to happen.

* Ward was good, but there are only so many carries to divide. They still have Jacobs and Bradshaw..plus they added Andre Brown in the draft....and he will be very good, imo. Now if Jacobs goes down, then they will miss Ward until the new guy gets going.

* The Canty/Olshansky tradeoff will not make a difference.

* They drafted 2 good WRs, but as rookies it's debateable how much they'll help.

I'm sure someone has mentioned this, but being lazy, I'm not going to read every post.

 

[AsthmaField]

Spencer is flirting with a bust title and Brandon Williams and Victor Butler are low drafted rookies. It's a possibility borderlining on a probability.

Bust? That's crazy. The staff loves Spencer. Enough that they're looking to unload Ellis because Spencer has made him a bit player.

Also, Phillips liked Spencer a good deal, even comparing him to Ware on numerous occasions. How is that working out for you guys?

Well. Spencer is going to be a good player for a long time.

 

[theebs]

well this is an interesting thread.

Its fun reading the skins and giants fans opinions on how much we stink and how great they are.

and as far as canty is concerned, of course the giants like him. He played excellent against the giants, all of his best games were against ny.

and the most important thing about canty, he played for al groh former giant defensive coordinator and Bill parcells foremer head coach of the giants, both close friends who share the exact same philosophy as Tom Coughlin. So, its not hard to see why they value him.

for the record, I think canty is a better player than olshansky and I think he is going to have alot of success in NY. With all that speed on the outside and then canty's size in the middle I think they are going to overwhelm most teams up front. Canty putting his hands up while romo is trying to look downfield scares me. Plus even if canty is average, against Dallas he will be above average because he will be all fire up like the rest of those trash talkers in NY.

oh and if the giants dont win the east and make some noise in the playoffs something is wrong with them. They have a superior coaching staff to Dallas and the relief of having arleady gotten over the hump, although they returned last year to their normal december mediocrity and early playoff loss ways just like Dallas suffers from.

I think a good season brings us a wild card and the reason is I think the giants should win this division, their defense is just going to be outstanding.

I do have one caveat, and that is canty's signing could end up like trotters signing in washington, a team he always played well against while in Philly.

and also in the past we have seen teams win championships on defense and then for whatever reason never seem to be able to have that magical run again like Baltimore, losing some players and their coordinator only to add more talent in the future but never grasp that magic again.

So who knows, right now for me I see the giants as the best team in the east.

oh and the comment that the giants didnt care about losing that game in december to Dallas, Please. that is simply as foolish as coughlin's made up story of jerry putting in nfc championship tickets in everybody's locker.

and I will end with this, I cant wait to see how the giants spin the cowboys having a new stadium will be turned into the cowboys being showoffs, soft, primadonna's and somehow insulting the giants so they can fire themselves up.

Just like that box of rocks tuck who said Dallas was trying to buy a championhsip last year, only to not realize the giants have signed more free agents than Dallas, then you throw in this season and that comment makes tuck come across as even less intelligent, if possible.

 

[dstew60105]

Hahahahaha...

Sintim will be eased into the defense, his primary responsibility will be to rush the passer and stop the run, the Giants coaching staff has already come out and said the knock against his coverage skills have been overblown since most analysts' were basing their evaluation on one on one drills during the combines.

And unlike Kiwanuka who spent his entire college football career lining up exclusively at DE, Sintim has plenty of experience dropping into coverage and you can be sure he will rarely be asked to cover Witten one on one.

Honestly who really cares what a Giant fans thinks. I guess we shouldn't even show up on game day. But going back the last 4 years or so we still have won the last 5 out of 9 ball games. We still sacked Eli 12 times last year and the Giants have what's considered one of the best OL's in the league. Give it a rest already, the Eagles are a bigger concern.

 

[dstew60105]

You mean the game Brandon Jacobs could have suited up for, but instead was saved for the following week? That game?

Yeah the same game that our 4th round pick almost hung a 100 on your defense. The same game that Barber played with one foot and Felix Jones watched from IR. What's your point? Wasn't that the same game where Eli watched the game from his backside?(sacked 8 times)

 

[BourbonBalz]

You're only missing a team that went 12-4 and won the Super Bowl 2 years ago, that's all. Also offensively the Giants had little problem putting points on the board against the Cardinals, Panthers, Commanders and Seahawks all without Plaxico. We also moved the ball pretty well against the Vikings for the half the starters actually played, a game that meant nothing to us and absolutely everything to the Vikings.

So yeah, I'm sure adding 3 high draft picks to the passing game will make us considerably worse offensively, somehow. And Derrick Ward a big blow? The guy who was on IR when we won our Super Bowl? News flash fellas, the Giants are a RB factory, have you not seen what we've done in the draft the last few year? Keep your eye out for Andre Brown and Danny Ware this year. Our strength is up front on the offensive line, that's where it all begins. That's why a 7th round Jets castoff named Derrick Ward cracked 1,000 yards rushing for the first time in his career and made a name for himself.

The only irreplaceable member of our backfield is the tone setter Jacobs. Defensively we will offset the loss of Spags by introducing NFC East QB's to a defensive line that has a great chance to surpass the one we had during our Super Bowl season. Adding Osi back into the fold is almost unfair, the guy is a top 5 DE, a stalwart against the run and a premier pass rusher. One of the most underrated performers in the ***wiping we gave the Patriots. Combine him with Tuck and Kiwi who is now a full time DE? It should be illegal.

Add guys like Bernard, Canty and Boley to a defense which was already very good to begin with, in addtion to a LB in the 2nd round the coaching staff is just ecstatic over in Clint Sintim and you are going to give opposing offensive coordinators some sleepless night.

But yeah, none of these moves come close to the additions the Cowboys made this offseason, losing a Hall of Famer like Owens will absoltely make you better. And how can you not see an upgrade in replacing a solid contributor in Canty, for a headcase that was benched for quitting on his team last year in Olshansky? Not to mention all of those stud 5th rounders you guys picked up, or the upcoming loss of Greg Ellis. Shoot the media is nuts not to crown you guys future Super Bowl Champs, let alone rate you above the Giants.

All this rant and yet you fail to see you have no proven receivers on your entire roster. Your TE situation is average at best and you lost a 1,000 yard rusher. If you really think your offense isn't going to suffer this year, you're just too blind to see it.

 

[Primetime42]

and as far as canty is concerned, of course the giants like him. He played excellent against the giants, all of his best games were against ny.

Ask the Seahawks how that worked out with Julius Jones.

 

[Quarterback Coach]

I could see us finishing last in the division. The Eagles and Giants will be as tough or tougher than they were last year.

And I guess nobody's respecting the Commanders. We only finished 1 game ahead of Washington last year. The Skins added a dominant player in Haynesworth, and they drafted a pretty solid prospect in Arakpo. The Skins ranked 4th in total defense, and 6th in PPG in 2008, and they could be much better this year. The Skins were a team that played better than they were on paper, now they're starting to look good on paper too.


Also I think people are favoring the Giants and Eagles because even if they dont win the division, they could still easily make the playoffs, and unlike Dallas, they actually win playoff games. That's the harsh reality.

Agreed...the Commanders have a solid record of personnel moves in free agency and the draft...

 

[Quarterback Coach]

Agreed...the Commanders have a solid record of personnel moves in free agency and the draft...

just in case...this is meant to be sarcastic.

 

[Quarterback Coach]

You're the only one on this thread that has actually tried to engage me with some smart football analysis, instead of the ignorant rants this thread is filled with, so let me just thank you in advance.

You raise a good point about teams getting by with talent deficiencies for a while before defenses make the necessary adjustments. Fortunately the Giants have plenty of talent, just not a lot of experience. This idea that an offense can't be successful without a true number one wideout has been proven false time after time.

And just as defenses can make adjustments, so can offenses themselves. This is going to be a very different offense to the one the Giants have fielded the past few years, but different doesn't always correlate to worse.

And I feel like I've had this Canty/Olshansky debate about a hundred times now, stats are useless in comparing these guys. Do you actually think coaching staffs base their valuations of a player on stats alone? This is not baseball, you learn about a player in the film room, so lets put the facts on the table and see if we can't find a difference between these two players.

The Commanders, Giants, Packers and Seahawks were all interested in Canty. The Giants scouting department is in love with this guys potential, he's versatile and will be used in multiple positions for the Giants, he's also a great locker room guy, a guy who Parcells gave nothing but praise to.

Olshansky was given his walking papers by the Chargers, a team that was in need of a DE, the made absolutely no attempt to sign him, in fact they wanted him out. He was benched last season because his coaching staff believed he quit on the team, he was also a pariah in the locker room.

So yeah, stats don't tell the whole story. Having a meat head that's obsessed with himself in the locker room and willing to quit on the team if things go south should be a concern. There is a reason there was almost no interest in the guy around the league.

Of course two years ago you were probably screaming from the hills to can Coughlin...so, basically you points mean nothing...you can go now...thanks.

 

[theebs]

Ask the Seahawks how that worked out with Julius Jones.

I hope it turns out the same for that no good rat.

But, again the logic works for the giants, they need a versatile player they have a good background on who will work in their system and who can excel with their style of coaching.

they get that with canty.

I hope he finishes with 20 tackles and is one of the top busts of free agency though, but I just dont see that happening.

 

[28 Joker]

I hear Giants.


Run, Felix run!

 

[Soth]

Wow, you are full of fail. There are 6 gaps, you forgot about off-tackle. And that's not even taking the FB or a TE into account. Of course, it would work in a 4 wide, but you'd leave the receivers completely uncovered. Any QB worth his salt would see that and isolate the receivers on the OLBs.

There's actually 7 gaps in a normal (non-goal line play) with 1 TE. But each GAP is covered by someone (front seven). No gap is ever left uncovered, that is plain stupid. If the TE goes for a pass, then that removes 1 gap and the DE has the off tackle gap now. The LBs need to decide if they shoot the gap or cover the pass in a lot of situations (ie. covering the RB/TE).

The FB has no impact on this. The FB will just hit the gap before the RB and whoever is defending that gap will need to shed that block.

 

[Soth]

There's actually 7 gaps in a normal (non-goal line play) with 1 TE. But each GAP is covered by someone (front seven). No gap is ever left uncovered, that is plain stupid. If the TE goes for a pass, then that removes 1 gap and the DE has the off tackle gap now. The LBs need to decide if they shoot the gap or cover the pass in a lot of situations (ie. covering the RB/TE).

The FB has no impact on this. The FB will just hit the gap before the RB and whoever is defending that gap will need to shed that block.

Before I get a smart *** reply. I realize the outside "gaps" are not true gaps, but I call them like this for simplicity purposes. The RB can run through any of the 5 inside gaps or on the outside. For football purposes it doesn't matter if its the outside or inside gap, someone has to cover that running lane.

 

[SaltwaterServr]

No doubt, if it's just the Cowboys vs the Giants straight up...we (da Boys) are pretty much even. But there is a 16 game schedule and playoffs to played.

Here are few other points:

* I think the main thing right now is that the jury is still out on the head coaching spot. They have a very good one and we have one who some say should already be gone.

* They were missing 2 time Pro Bowler Osi Umenyiora last season. He is 10-15 sacks waiting to happen.

* Ward was good, but there are only so many carries to divide. They still have Jacobs and Bradshaw..plus they added Andre Brown in the draft....and he will be very good, imo. Now if Jacobs goes down, then they will miss Ward until the new guy gets going.

* The Canty/Olshansky tradeoff will not make a difference.

* They drafted 2 good WRs, but as rookies it's debateable how much they'll help.

I'm sure someone has mentioned this, but being lazy, I'm not going to read every post.

The bolded I highly disagree with. Osi has two seasons with 10+ sacks. Both came with Strahan on the field.

Of his 2007 production of 13 sacks, 6 came in one game. 7 sacks in 15 games is what we got with our nose tackle last year.

I think this will be the year that Osi shows that he can carry the load or he benefitted hugely from the attention that Strahan got on the other side.

-------
I laugh at BBWC. Since we don't want to shine the jewels of the Giants, we're not worthy of debate? Sorry chump, but when your team loses its top 2 WR's and a 1000 yard rusher you've got just about as much to prove on that side of the ball as any bottom third team in the league.

It is so laughingly absurd that the hometown mediots are slurping up every bit of leftover slop the Giants have spilled and thinking they're actually eating at the French Laundry.

Can you go through the entire NFL's team list, knock off their top 2 recievers, remove a 1000 yard running back, and then think they'd be as promoted as the Giants are this offseason??? It is disgustingly ludicrous.

No team who loses it's top 2 recievers and a 1000 yard running back should be considered a contender for anything especially in the NFC East.

 

[Primetime42]

The bolded I highly disagree with. Osi has two seasons with 10+ sacks. Both came with Strahan on the field.

Of his 2007 production of 13 sacks, 6 came in one game. 7 sacks in 15 games is what we got with our nose tackle last year.

I think this will be the year that Osi shows that he can carry the load or he benefitted hugely from the attention that Strahan got on the other side.

-------
I laugh at BBWC. Since we don't want to shine the jewels of the Giants, we're not worthy of debate? Sorry chump, but when your team loses its top 2 WR's and a 1000 yard rusher you've got just about as much to prove on that side of the ball as any bottom third team in the league.

It is so laughingly absurd that the hometown mediots are slurping up every bit of leftover slop the Giants have spilled and thinking they're actually eating at the French Laundry.

Can you go through the entire NFL's team list, knock off their top 2 recievers, remove a 1000 yard running back, and then think they'd be as promoted as the Giants are this offseason??? It is disgustingly ludicrous.

No team who loses it's top 2 recievers and a 1000 yard running back should be considered a contender for anything especially in the NFC East.

Yeah, they won't miss Ward either.

Nevermind that Jacobs is good to miss 3 games every season.