2009 Cowboys vs. 2009 Giants

[BBWC]

ScipioCowboy

I respect your opinion, I really do, but we're going to have to agree to disagree and leave it at that. Every time I enter a discussion on the Giants in this site it invariably ends up with a conversation about Canty vs. Olshansky and I'd rather just discuss something else at this point.

 

[BBWC]

In really the only game that was apples to apples last year your beloved Giants ran for a whopping 72 yards at Dallas in December.

You mean the game Brandon Jacobs could have suited up for, but instead was saved for the following week? That game?

 

[firehawk350]

Giving your coaching staff the benefit of doubt that they won't be as bad as Ted Cottrell is horribly biased? In what respect? Ted Cottrell has been run out of town from New York, Minnesota and now San Diego. So I'm supposed to hope Bill Sheridan will match that level of incompetence?

He's been a respected coach for the Giants for years, he was our linebackers coach the last couple of years under Spags who gave the guy a ringing endorsement, he gave Spags advice on blitz packages to call during games as well. So yeah, I'm going to continue giving him the benefit of doubt that he will serve as an adequate replacement...

You can't expect everybody else to give him the benefit of the doubt.

you hate the Cowboys more

Granted.

that's pretty convenient

btw, Wade Phillips has coached both Igor and Canty, so his opinion is more than just lip-service

Not after the fact it isn't. You don't talk up your old girlfriend over your new girlfriend.

who says he won't have help from Spencer on the otherside? are you telling me that out of Spencer, Brandon Williams and Victor Butler, not one will step up?

Spencer is flirting with a bust title and Brandon Williams and Victor Butler are low drafted rookies. It's a possibility borderlining on a probability.

guys Wade Phillips has scouted and given the OK sign to?

Holds about as much water as BBW's "because Spags liked him" argument. Also, Phillips liked Spencer a good deal, even comparing him to Ware on numerous occasions. How is that working out for you guys?

he does, if you look at Wade Phillips' entire coaching career, '08 was an aberration

Are you even familiar with the fundamentals behind a 1-gap system?

when that means he will have less opportunities to get hit, you bet it does

we have 3 talented backs, arguably the best TE in football, we will be more balanced this year

Speculation.

I do agree that it doesn't happen often. However, if I had to bet on one guy getting a mid-round rookie some sacks... it probably would be Wade Phillips. Buddy Ryan also had a knack for finding good defensive guys. Some coaches simply have a knack for it. Phillips definitely has it.

If either B Williams or V Butler see many snaps... I honestly expect to see some sack production from them. Not because they're awesome... but because Phillips is using them in his scheme.

As always, JMO.

I think they may get a couple but I doubt they'll make a serious impact. Enough to warrant a place in this discussion.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Not after the fact it isn't. You don't talk up your old girlfriend over your new girlfriend.

uh, what? I guess we should never believe what coaches say then

Spencer is flirting with a bust title and Brandon Williams and Victor Butler are low drafted rookies. It's a possibility borderlining on a probability.

you would like to think so

Holds about as much water as BBW's "because Spags liked him" argument. Also, Phillips liked Spencer a good deal, even comparing him to Ware on numerous occasions. How is that working out for you guys?

you're right, Phillips can't scout defensive players

Are you even familiar with the fundamentals behind a 1-gap system?

it allows your front 3 to get into the backfield quicker, what's your point?

Speculation.

so we're going to repeat the disaster of last year? I'm sure Jerry Jones wants Tony Romo to miss games again

 

[firehawk350]

uh, did Wade say anything bad about Canty?

You don't understand. It's okay, I didn't expect you to.

you would like to think so

Good rebuttal. I mean really. I'm surprised you came up with this so quick, all by yourself.

you're right, Phillips can't scout defensive players

What's it called when you incorrectly frame my argument so as to create a position that's more easily assailable? Don't worry, I was being a bit facetious, I know you don't know that answer. It's a scarecrow and you just provided a perfect example of it.

it allows your front 7 to get into the backfield quicker, what's your point?

Oh, a teaching/learning opportunity! Yay! So how does the single gap do that?

so we're going to repeat the disaster of last year?

Maybe, maybe not. Who knows?

 

[AsthmaField]

Yup, that's exactly the reason the Skins went down. Had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that they lost their perennial pro-bowl LT to injury and had their star RB injured for a good portion of the second half of the season. Absolutely nothing.

And what I said had absolutely nothing to do with it either.

 

[firehawk350]

And what I said had absolutely nothing to do with it either.

Strawman. It was likely a combination of the two. Zorn will likely have learned his lessons and modified his system to take in the more effective portions. Portis and Samuels back healthy means we can continue our excellent running game while the passing game should be a bit more effective. Honestly, I see the offense being a good deal better but not to the point that we'll average more than 24-25 points.

 

[Primetime42]

the coaching staff is just ecstatic over in Clint Sintim

This is a bold-faced lie. I know for a FACT that the coaching staff at best is split 50/50 on the selection of Sintim.

You beat us last December in an absolutely meaningless game, it was all about the Panthers the following week, even if we beat the Cowboys if we lost the next game we would have been out the number 1 seed. When you beat us in January you'll have something to crow about.

More lies.

LMAO @ you if you think for a second the Giants would look past the Cowboys in a December game.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

You don't understand. It's okay, I didn't expect you to.

I misread it, I have a tendency to read things too quickly and tend to miss things, I went back and edited it

Good rebuttal. I mean really. I'm surprised you came up with this so quick, all by yourself.

your's was a ridiculous statement, Spencer has been plagued by injuries, and you don't stop getting good players after the 3rd round, the aforementioned, great Chris Canty was a 4th round pick, we got Marion Barber in the 4th round

Jay Ratliff -- 7th round

What's it called when you incorrectly frame my argument so as to create a position that's more easily assailable? Don't worry, I was being a bit facetious, I know you don't know that answer. It's a scarecrow and you just provided a perfect example of it.

I didn't incorrectly frame your argument, we're talking about finding a player to rush the passer opposite Ware, and Wade Phillips' ability to coach that player

you seem to doubt that we/he can

Oh, a teaching/learning opportunity! Yay! So how does the single gap do that?

by lining up on the shoulder of the Olineman and shooting the gap

now tell me how the single-gap scheme isn't conducive to stopping the run, since that is the contentious issue

Maybe, maybe not. Who knows?

use common sense

 

[lqmac1]

Help me becuase I know I'm not the smartest (okay the peanut gallery can shut up now), but I am really confused when I look at these teams...

I know why the media thinks we will be a 3rd place division team, but why are the Giants among the best in the NFC?

Did they not lose their DC (one of the game's best),

Did they not lose one of their "three headed beasts" at RB,

Did they not only lose Plaxico, but cut Toomer giving them NO PROVEN receivers sans a slot guy in Smith,

Did their biggest signing be a DL who would disappear at times on the field when he played with a star on the side of his head?

What am I not seeing...:starspin

amen

but thats okay let us be underdog's i'm down with that.
And correct me if i'm lying but was'nt every1 sayin " in order for the cowboys to be were they wanna be they have to eliminate the cancers of the team" and as soon as we do that were an awful team with no leader.

 

[BBWC]

This is a bold-faced lie. I know for a FACT that the coaching staff at best is split 50/50 on the selection of Sintim.

I'm guessing this is a good bit of sarcasm, so I'll address this to no one in particular.

It was confirmed that if Hakeem Nicks was off the board at 29 the Giants would have gone with Clint Sintim. As a matter of fact the vote inside the Giants draft room reportedly went 6-5 in favor of Nicks and the Giants were ecstatic to grab Sintim 45 overall.

 

[firehawk350]

I misread it, I have a tendency to read things too quickly and tend to miss things, I went back and edited it

Does the term grain of salt mean anything to you?

your's was a ridiculous statement, Spencer has been plagued by injuries, and you don't stop getting good players after the 3rd round, the aforementioned, great Chris Canty was a 4th round pick, we got Marion Barber in the 4th round

Jay Ratliff -- 7th round



I didn't incorrectly frame your argument, we're talking about finding a player to rush the passer opposite Ware, and Wade Phillips' ability to coach that player

You had a ridiculous premise. Just because Wade picked him doesn’t make them contributors. Your scouting consists of, “if Wade got him, he’s good” which is absolutely insane in any form of a debate.

by shooting the gap

now tell me how the single-gap scheme isn't conducive to stopping the run, since that is the contentious issue

You shoot the gap which leaves the OTHER gap open. Sure, you can stop the run in the backfield, but if the RB is hitting the hole you just vacated and does so faster than you can beat your blocker, you will give up a HUGE run. That’s what happened against Baltimore. Spencer shot the gap outside either the guard or tackle (I forget which one) and the B-more RB hit the inside gap. This effectively took Spencer out of the play. All b-more had to do was making a crashing safety miss (not overly difficult) and it was gravy. A 2-gap would have likely stopped that run by allowing Spencer to make a play on the RB. Even if he didn’t get the tackle, he would have stopped momentum and allowed Hamlin to get a better angle.

use your senses

You have a sense that can see the future? Really?

 

[DallasDomination]

Help me becuase I know I'm not the smartest (okay the peanut gallery can shut up now), but I am really confused when I look at these teams...

I know why the media thinks we will be a 3rd place division team, but why are the Giants among the best in the NFC?

Did they not lose their DC (one of the game's best),

Did they not lose one of their "three headed beasts" at RB,

Did they not only lose Plaxico, but cut Toomer giving them NO PROVEN receivers sans a slot guy in Smith,

Did their biggest signing be a DL who would disappear at times on the field when he played with a star on the side of his head?

What am I not seeing...:starspin

They still have a good running attack. Their D improved over the SB year and now they are getting OSi back.

Losing Plaxico Burres is the only thing that might be tough. Toomer is non important, easilly replaced. The D Cord, was a hot ticket. They'll be fine without Him.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Does the term grain of salt mean anything to you?

if it weren't a great judge of defensive talent whose seen and coached a player, yeah, I would take it w/ a grain of salt

You had a ridiculous premise. Just because Wade picked him doesn’t make them contributors. Your scouting consists of, “if Wade got him, he’s good” which is absolutely insane in any form of a debate.

my premise is that we'll once again have a fearsome pass-rushing group

out of 3 players, we should find one who can rush the passer to help Ware, and Ware's mere presence is going to help that happen since Spencer will be seeing less attention

You shoot the gap which leaves the OTHER gap open. Sure, you can stop the run in the backfield, but if the RB is hitting the hole you just vacated and does so faster than you can beat your blocker, you will give up a HUGE run.

5 linemen, that means there are 4 gaps, the LDE plugs the gap between the RT and the RG, the RDE plugs the gap between the LT and the LG, and the NT takes on the C and one of the OGs

that leaves one gap that needs to be plugged by the strong-side, inside LB

there is no vacating gaps, even when you go through them, you're still responsible for that area, the single-gap just means there is a greater chance of the linemen making the play than the LBs, than if it were a double-gap scheme

That’s what happened against Baltimore. Spencer shot the gap outside either the guard or tackle (I forget which one) and the B-more RB hit the inside gap. This effectively took Spencer out of the play. All b-more had to do was making a crashing safety miss (not overly difficult) and it was gravy. A 2-gap would have likely stopped that run by allowing Spencer to make a play on the RB. Even if he didn’t get the tackle, he would have stopped momentum and allowed Hamlin to get a better angle.

that's not what happened, Spencer was supposed to take on a block, he ran around it, taking himself out of the play and leaving a blocker to take on someone else

You have a sense that can see the future? Really?

I meant common sense
but of course you would like Dallas to continue using an offensive scheme that isn't successful, and which nearly got Romo killed

 

[Bob Sacamano]

ScipioCowboy

I respect your opinion, I really do, but we're going to have to agree to disagree and leave it at that. Every time I enter a discussion on the Giants in this site it invariably ends up with a conversation about Canty vs. Olshansky and I'd rather just discuss something else at this point.

don't you mean Canty = Olshansky?

 

[Primetime42]

I'm guessing this is a good bit of sarcasm, so I'll address this to no one in particular.

It was confirmed that if Hakeem Nicks was off the board at 29 the Giants would have gone with Clint Sintim. As a matter of fact the vote inside the Giants draft room reportedly went 6-5 in favor of Nicks and the Giants were ecstatic to grab Sintim 45 overall.

Less than 5 minutes after Sintim was drafted I talked to someone at Giants headquarters and this person (who has absolutely no reason to lie to me) told me what I typed earlier.

This is not verbatim, but it went along the lines of "He's a great pass rusher, but they have major concerns about him coverage wise as a SLB in this scheme"

In other words, you may as well put Kiwanuka back at LB again. Witten will eat this guy for breakfast if you dare to leave him there.

 

[BBWC]

Less than 5 minutes after Sintim was drafted I talked to someone at Giants headquarters and this person (who has absolutely no reason to lie to me) told me what I typed earlier.

This is not verbatim, but it went along the lines of "He's a great pass rusher, but they have major concerns about him coverage wise as a SLB in this scheme"

Hahahahaha...

In other words, you may as well put Kiwanuka back at LB again. Witten will eat this guy for breakfast if you dare to leave him there.

Sintim will be eased into the defense, his primary responsibility will be to rush the passer and stop the run, the Giants coaching staff has already come out and said the knock against his coverage skills have been overblown since most analysts' were basing their evaluation on one on one drills during the combines.

And unlike Kiwanuka who spent his entire college football career lining up exclusively at DE, Sintim has plenty of experience dropping into coverage and you can be sure he will rarely be asked to cover Witten one on one.

 

[Primetime42]

Laugh all you want.

It doesn't make it untrue. But keep spinning away.

 

[firehawk350]

if it weren't a great judge of defensive talent whose seen and coached a player, yeah, I would take it w/ a grain of salt

And there's no way in the world Wade is biased, right? Coaches NEVER pimp players (*cough* Tank Johnson *cough*).

my premise is that we'll once again have a fearsome pass-rushing group

out of 3 players, we should find one who can rush the passer to help Ware, and Ware's mere presence is going to help that happen since Spencer will be seeing less attention

Your premise is that Wade knows defensive talent and because he knows defensive talent, these guys HAVE to be good. Forget that two are low drafted rookies and the other is average 2.25 sacks a year. And it's not like Ware is a new addition, he played opposite Spence during Spencer's entire career and Spencer hasn't done squat yet.

5 linemen, that means there are 4 gaps, the LDE plugs the gap between the RT and the RG, the RDE plugs the gap between the LT and the LG, and the NT takes on the C and one of the OGs

that leaves one gap that needs to be plugged by the strong-side, inside LB

there is no vacating gaps, even when you go through them, you're still responsible for that area, the single-gap just means there is a greater chance of the linemen making the play than the LBs, than if it were a double-gap scheme

Wow, you are full of fail. There are 6 gaps, you forgot about off-tackle. And that's not even taking the FB or a TE into account. Of course, it would work in a 4 wide, but you'd leave the receivers completely uncovered. Any QB worth his salt would see that and isolate the receivers on the OLBs.

that's not what happened, Spencer was supposed to take on a block, he ran around it, taking himself out of the play and leaving a blocker to take on someone else

Taking on a block instead of shooting a gap? Two gap instead of one gap? But I thought the one gap scheme was the greatest defensive idea since the blitz was created... You just proved my point.

I meant common sense
but of course you would like Dallas to continue using an offensive scheme that isn't successful, and which nearly got Romo killed

Show me one place where anybody with offensive authority indicated that you'll run more. At this point, it's conjection.

 

[firehawk350]

Laugh all you want.

It doesn't make it untrue. But keep spinning away.

If it was me, I would put a LB underneath and a safety over the top of Witten. Put pressure on Romo and he'll try to force it to Witten. If it's a run, you'll have 8 in the box.