2011 Packers (15-1) had the worst defense

[BlindFaith]

I could see something like that; although you must know something about Bass that I don't. I just have not seen him. He didn't play last preseason and I don't remember if he played much the previous season. The only information I have is that Hatcher proclaimed both Bass and Crawford as future star players. I don't even know if he is more of a 1 or 3 tech.

Hes the same size as McClain, just quicker. He has the ability to play end as well. Hes had two very good training camps. Just cant stay healthy. He could play either the one or three.

 

[Idgit]

But I thought TOs created by the defense don't affect the output of the game. That's what the Garrett-homers kept telling me when they said it was all the defense's fault and I was saying this offense didn't capitalize multiple times on the chances this defense provided them with. We were 13th in turnovers, what were we the year before with Rob Ryan? Pretty bad, bottom-feeder bad..

In fact that was the excuse Garrett said following the firing of Rob and the hiring of Kiffen and Marinelli, i.e. the defense needs to give the offense more chances. So we upped the TOs dramatically, but were still 8-8..

Got to love how the standards keep changing for Garrett...

Are you maybe thinking about the thread where the made up argument that the offense wasn't effective when they weren't handed a turnover was exploded? Or the one where it shifted to pretend we then weren't effective offensively after turnovers until that got exploded?

Because I can't imagine many Garrett supporters actually arguing that takeaways on defense don't help you win NFL games. Garrett supporters tend to be posters who actually take measurements and statistics into account.

 

[xwalker]

Hes the same size as McClain, just quicker. He has the ability to play end as well. Hes had two very good training camps. Just cant stay healthy. He could play either the one or three.

When was his last injury. I thought he missed all of the 2013 preseason.

 

[BlindFaith]

When was his last injury. I thought he missed all of the 2013 preseason.

He dislocated his shoulder in September. He played in one or two preseason games I think.

 

[BlindFaith]

Ware did not put up phenomenal numbers obviously, but it doesn't mean it will be easy to replace his numbers with Lawrence because, like you said, we don't know. It certainly doesn't mean it will be easy to replace his numbers with Mincey because we don't know.

If someone wants to tell me one of these guys, or both of them combined, will be better than No. 8 in the league in providing pressure next year, I'd be relieved to hear it because we need them to be. We needed Ware to be that, too, but he wasn't. That still doesn't guarantee that the ends we have are going to put up similar or better numbers.

It's possible that they will, and I hope that they will, but it's silly to just believe that they will simply because Ware's numbers weren't spectacular. Less than spectacular is still better than nothing, which is what we might get. Anyone who doesn't believe that's possible hasn't been paying attention to the many draft busts that occur each year or the free agents that don't pan out, especially when they are castoffs.

Again, I don't mean that Ware set the bar high. Simply that we might not have the players to reach it. Until I see that we do, I'm not going to get too excited about this defense's chances.

Willie Young - 15 hurries
Everson Griffen - 13 hurries
Adrian Clayborn - 13 hurries
Fletcher Cox - 13 hurries

Hurries just means that he was a step late from getting a sack. Lot of guys you've never probably heard of with lots of hurries. For a young up and comer, hurries without sacks is probably a great stat to look at. Means he's getting close.

Hurries without sacks for a oft injured, older vet means he's lost a step or two.

And as far as replacing his production. Look at our own George Selvie. He came in as a complete nobody and contributed 11 hurries and 7 sacks. Very similar production to Ware.

I agree with Xwalker. Lawrence plus (Rayford/Wilson/Mincey) should give us at least what we got out of Ware plus (insert scrub of the week). I'm actually expecting more contribution from our new pairing, but that's purely hopefulness until we see what we got.

I also expect more contribution from our 1 tech this year. Hayden managed 7 hurries last year. He's about as explosive as a tree stump. Crawford will most likely move inside on passing downs. I could see 7 sacks and 15 hurries from him alone. Major upgrade.

Melton, if fully recovered from his knee injury, will give us MORE than Hatcher did. I believe that he's more talented than Hatcher and is really just now turning into a complete d tackle. Remember, he was a running back for half of his college career. Then he played DE. Was moved to DT in the pros. He has a much higher ceiling than Hatcher ever had.

Selvie is still the concern here. Teams now have a full years worth of tape on him in this scheme. Limiting his snaps will help. But I'm not counting on the same production he put up last year. Maybe a guy like Gardner splitting time with him could be a good combo. Also having Crawford playing on first downs.

 

[khiladi]

Are you maybe thinking about the thread where the made up argument that the offense wasn't effective when they weren't handed a turnover was exploded? Or the one where it shifted to pretend we then weren't effective offensively after turnovers until that got exploded?

Because I can't imagine many Garrett supporters actually arguing that takeaways on defense don't help you win NFL games. Garrett supporters tend to be posters who actually take measurements and statistics into account.

No, that was only your imagination that my argument was exploded.

It was the thread where you embarrassingly thought starting field position correlated to whether we capitalized on turnover or not..

 

[gimmesix]

Willie Young - 15 hurries
Everson Griffen - 13 hurries
Adrian Clayborn - 13 hurries
Fletcher Cox - 13 hurries

Hurries just means that he was a step late from getting a sack. Lot of guys you've never probably heard of with lots of hurries. For a young up and comer, hurries without sacks is probably a great stat to look at. Means he's getting close.

Hurries without sacks for a oft injured, older vet means he's lost a step or two.

And as far as replacing his production. Look at our own George Selvie. He came in as a complete nobody and contributed 11 hurries and 7 sacks. Very similar production to Ware.

Yes, we can make a list of quite a few players who had hurries similar to Ware's. We can also make a list of quite a few players who did not.

Again, we do not know which side of the fence our guys will end up. That's all.

What Ware provided last year also was not enough for this defense to be better than 32nd, so we actually need more from the new guys we've got in order to improve.

I believe the top guys on that list I provided had somewhere around 27 hurries, so we need something closer to that range from some combination of players in addition to what the others provided for this defense to be successful. I'm not counting on that.

I don't worry about sacks because pressure isn't limited to sacks. The key for this defense is to make the QB uncomfortable, force him to move, force him to throw off his back foot, etc. If we can do that, we can be successful ... and likely the sacks will come.

 

[gimmesix]

I agree with Xwalker. Lawrence plus (Rayford/Wilson/Mincey) should give us at least what we got out of Ware plus (insert scrub of the week). I'm actually expecting more contribution from our new pairing, but that's purely hopefulness until we see what we got.

I also expect more contribution from our 1 tech this year. Hayden managed 7 hurries last year. He's about as explosive as a tree stump. Crawford will most likely move inside on passing downs. I could see 7 sacks and 15 hurries from him alone. Major upgrade.

Melton, if fully recovered from his knee injury, will give us MORE than Hatcher did. I believe that he's more talented than Hatcher and is really just now turning into a complete d tackle. Remember, he was a running back for half of his college career. Then he played DE. Was moved to DT in the pros. He has a much higher ceiling than Hatcher ever had.

Selvie is still the concern here. Teams now have a full years worth of tape on him in this scheme. Limiting his snaps will help. But I'm not counting on the same production he put up last year. Maybe a guy like Gardner splitting time with him could be a good combo. Also having Crawford playing on first downs.

These are a bunch of maybes.

Maybe Lawrence plus whoever gives us what Ware plus scrub gave us or the more that we really need. Like you said, it's purely hopefulness ... but again, the bar isn't set real high. The question is simply whether Mincey and Co. are better than those scrubs and Lawrence isn't a bust.

Maybe we can expect more of our 1-tech, but has McClain really shown more in his career or Crawford in his one year. The expectations can't be high based on their career numbers so far ... but the potential for more is certainly there.

Melton has never put up the sack numbers that Hatcher did last year. Does he have that in him? Maybe, along with the ability to put up better pressure numbers. Of course, the fully recovered thing is a big maybe.

Maybe Selvie will put up similar numbers or even better ones than last year. Maybe Gardner will make the team.

 

[Idgit]

No, that was only your imagination that my argument was exploded.

It was the thread where you embarrassingly thought starting field position correlated to whether we capitalized on turnover or not..

Oh, I remember the thread well. That's how I knew you were misrepresenting what was actually said by pretending anybody anywhere said that takeaways on defense don't matter.

 

[khiladi]

Oh, I remember the thread well. That's how I knew you were misrepresenting what was actually said by pretending anybody anywhere said that takeaways on defense don't matter.

There you go with imagining things again.

I mean for the life of me, I remember a lot of the discussion around something like a 4 TO game in Detroit and us losing that game, and that being blown aside because our defense as bad, because we gave up a lot of yardage, i.e. 'the defense was at fault.'

But yeah, keeping hanging your head on clear hyperbole as your 'saving grace'...

 

[Clove]

Not really when it all is said and done it is about giving up points. Biggest stat by any defense and offense is points. No one won based on yardage you win because you put up more points and gave up less points. Turnovers clearly are a big help since it takes the ball away and gives your offense a chance to score but in the end it comes down to point

I agree with this. You must outscore your opponent at the end of the day. Now it's easier to do that when the defense isn't giving up that many points.

What I will add to this though is, no matter how many points you score, or points you give up, when the game is on the line and we have a chance to score and win, yet we don't, then other factors
come in to play. So again, we need to work on being opportunistic when the time presents itself. I'd like to simply blow every team out, but that'snot going to happen. So since this isn't going to happen, the next best thing is to control the ball, be efficient on offense, meaning less 2nd down and 16's. When your offense makes a dumb mistake and moves the team back 5 to 10 yards, you are not being efficient and therefore, you're giving the ball back to their offense.

There were times last year that the defense was doing so good, yet the offense couldn't put points on the board, or only put up 3 points. Defense couldn't hold up, start giving up points. Then we would score a bunch to catch up in the late 3rd, 4th. This is not good offense. This is not efficient offense. You can't simply wait late to start showing up and putting up empty stats late in games. Control the game from the 1st quarter. Control the clock, control the ball, and most of all, put 7 points on the board.

Defensively, we were just bad but we did have times we held up, just couldn't keep it up all game long and that sucks.

I think this year I'm going to keep a Diary and we all should. Make a synopsis of each quarter as it happens. The reason I'm doing this is because at the end of the game, or end of the year, we look at the complete stats instead of keeping up with things as they happen. For example, we may have lost 31 to 30 and it looks at the end of the day that our offense was unstoppable. Yet when you break the game down, we didn't score our last 20 points until the 4th qtr. Maybe the defense held them to 10 until late third and we kept giving the ball back to the offense.

How you ended up with the score has a lot to do with the 1st, and 2nd quarters. If you're scoring on nearly every possession, mainly touch downs, then your offense is efficient. But if you're getting chunks of yards in small spurts, you're gambling. And gambling to win is a mediocre style of football. Hoping that other teams lose, or other teams have injuries, or that you're score 30 in 2 quarters, those things will keep you at 8-8.

 

[Idgit]

There you go with imagining things again.

I mean for the life of me, I remember a lot of the discussion around something like a 4 TO game in Detroit and us losing that game, and that being blown aside because our defense as bad, because we gave up a lot of yardage, i.e. 'the defense was at fault.'

But yeah, keeping hanging your head on clear hyperbole as your 'saving grace'...

What are you talking about, exactly? I can't even guess as to which direction you're floundering right now.

Turnovers affect the outcomes of games. Significantly. Nobody you were arguing with in that other thread said otherwise. If you think they did, you're misunderstanding their actual argument or misrepresenting it on purpose.

 

[burmafrd]

I watched him play you can go to any sight you want fact is Ware looked like trash last year when Dallas needed big plays from a big player he was not there, I don't want to be cruel but that is what I saw a guy who was no longer able to make a difference when games where on the line. You can talk pressure all you want but the object is not just pressure if you can’t get to the QB. As for the youth as I said I don't expect them to transform the defense into a top 10 but yes I think we can replace the little production we got from Ware. He lines up on the weak side and you bet I expect that side to bring pressure. Again as for Hatcher 1 time in how many years? Last season he played very good ball prior to that the most he ever got sack wise was 4.5 and yes under Marinelli system that is what helped Hatcher yet a lot of these guys we got they fit the bill with quickness off the snap shooting gaps exactly what Marinelli is looking for in his defensive fronts. Sorry but when people say I don’t know how we can replace Ware and his 6 sacks on the season? I say it is not that hard

in other words do not bother me with facts; my Mark 1 Eyeball trumps anything anyone else has to say.

 

[DFWJC]

I agree with this. You must outscore your opponent at the end of the day. Now it's easier to do that when the defense isn't giving up that many points.

What I will add to this though is, no matter how many points you score, or points you give up, when the game is on the line and we have a chance to score and win, yet we don't, then other factors
come in to play. So again, we need to work on being opportunistic when the time presents itself. I'd like to simply blow every team out, but that'snot going to happen. So since this isn't going to happen, the next best thing is to control the ball, be efficient on offense, meaning less 2nd down and 16's. When your offense makes a dumb mistake and moves the team back 5 to 10 yards, you are not being efficient and therefore, you're giving the ball back to their offense.

There were times last year that the defense was doing so good, yet the offense couldn't put points on the board, or only put up 3 points. Defense couldn't hold up, start giving up points. Then we would score a bunch to catch up in the late 3rd, 4th. This is not good offense. This is not efficient offense. You can't simply wait late to start showing up and putting up empty stats late in games. Control the game from the 1st quarter. Control the clock, control the ball, and most of all, put 7 points on the board.

Defensively, we were just bad but we did have times we held up, just couldn't keep it up all game long and that sucks.

I think this year I'm going to keep a Diary and we all should. Make a synopsis of each quarter as it happens. The reason I'm doing this is because at the end of the game, or end of the year, we look at the complete stats instead of keeping up with things as they happen. For example, we may have lost 31 to 30 and it looks at the end of the day that our offense was unstoppable. Yet when you break the game down, we didn't score our last 20 points until the 4th qtr. Maybe the defense held them to 10 until late third and we kept giving the ball back to the offense.

How you ended up with the score has a lot to do with the 1st, and 2nd quarters. If you're scoring on nearly every possession, mainly touch downs, then your offense is efficient. But if you're getting chunks of yards in small spurts, you're gambling. And gambling to win is a mediocre style of football. Hoping that other teams lose, or other teams have injuries, or that you're score 30 in 2 quarters, those things will keep you at 8-8.

There are websites that keep track of every down of every game if you are interested. But it sounds like you may want to write additional notes as well....not sure.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/

 

[burmafrd]

I agree with this. You must outscore your opponent at the end of the day. Now it's easier to do that when the defense isn't giving up that many points.

What I will add to this though is, no matter how many points you score, or points you give up, when the game is on the line and we have a chance to score and win, yet we don't, then other factors
come in to play. So again, we need to work on being opportunistic when the time presents itself. I'd like to simply blow every team out, but that'snot going to happen. So since this isn't going to happen, the next best thing is to control the ball, be efficient on offense, meaning less 2nd down and 16's. When your offense makes a dumb mistake and moves the team back 5 to 10 yards, you are not being efficient and therefore, you're giving the ball back to their offense.

There were times last year that the defense was doing so good, yet the offense couldn't put points on the board, or only put up 3 points. Defense couldn't hold up, start giving up points. Then we would score a bunch to catch up in the late 3rd, 4th. This is not good offense. This is not efficient offense. You can't simply wait late to start showing up and putting up empty stats late in games. Control the game from the 1st quarter. Control the clock, control the ball, and most of all, put 7 points on the board.

Defensively, we were just bad but we did have times we held up, just couldn't keep it up all game long and that sucks.

I think this year I'm going to keep a Diary and we all should. Make a synopsis of each quarter as it happens. The reason I'm doing this is because at the end of the game, or end of the year, we look at the complete stats instead of keeping up with things as they happen. For example, we may have lost 31 to 30 and it looks at the end of the day that our offense was unstoppable. Yet when you break the game down, we didn't score our last 20 points until the 4th qtr. Maybe the defense held them to 10 until late third and we kept giving the ball back to the offense.

How you ended up with the score has a lot to do with the 1st, and 2nd quarters. If you're scoring on nearly every possession, mainly touch downs, then your offense is efficient. But if you're getting chunks of yards in small spurts, you're gambling. And gambling to win is a mediocre style of football. Hoping that other teams lose, or other teams have injuries, or that you're score 30 in 2 quarters, those things will keep you at 8-8.

there were VERY few times last year when the D really did much of anything. By midseason everyone understood that whatever happened this year would be because of the Offense only. That kind of mindset then causes other problems; but the blame lies with the D.

 

[BlindFaith]

These are a bunch of maybes.

Maybe Lawrence plus whoever gives us what Ware plus scrub gave us or the more that we really need. Like you said, it's purely hopefulness ... but again, the bar isn't set real high. The question is simply whether Mincey and Co. are better than those scrubs and Lawrence isn't a bust.

Maybe we can expect more of our 1-tech, but has McClain really shown more in his career or Crawford in his one year. The expectations can't be high based on their career numbers so far ... but the potential for more is certainly there.

Melton has never put up the sack numbers that Hatcher did last year. Does he have that in him? Maybe, along with the ability to put up better pressure numbers. Of course, the fully recovered thing is a big maybe.

Maybe Selvie will put up similar numbers or even better ones than last year. Maybe Gardner will make the team.

I'm not saying we will be good this year. Actually, if our defense is only average I'd be ecstatic. I'm just saying that losing Ware at his current state of decline is not something that is hard to overcome. But I also agree with you in that the bar should be much higher than just trying to be as good as last year - which was not good at all.

That's why I can't wait for training camp. We have soooo many questions this year on defense. We have guys with high potential that just haven't panned out at other stops. We have guys with high potential that are coming off of injuries. We have guys that have been solid and been to Pro Bowls coming off of injuries. New guys with potential but are completely unknown.

All in all, I feel our roster has more POTENTIAL than what we started the year with last year. If Crawford and Lawrence are what we hope they can be, and if Carter can step it up and we find a middle LBer and if we get a solid safety tandem - we could be a solid defense. Not spectacular, but solid.

I'm not a Romo guy, but many believe he's elite. We have what looks to be a top 5 oline, we have a top 5 WR, we have a top 5 TE, we have a top 10 RB, we have a number 2 WR that many are saying could be a number 1, we have another weapon at TE if utilized. We have a hand picked OC. There should be no excuses for this offense to not be a top 5 scoring offense.

If we get that and a solid defense, we could make the playoffs.

But still a lot of questions to be answered.

 

[DFWJC]

I'm not saying we will be good this year. Actually, if our defense is only average I'd be ecstatic. I'm just saying that losing Ware at his current state of decline is not something that is hard to overcome. But I also agree with you in that the bar should be much higher than just trying to be as good as last year - which was not good at all.

That's why I can't wait for training camp. We have soooo many questions this year on defense. We have guys with high potential that just haven't panned out at other stops. We have guys with high potential that are coming off of injuries. We have guys that have been solid and been to Pro Bowls coming off of injuries. New guys with potential but are completely unknown.

All in all, I feel our roster has more POTENTIAL than what we started the year with last year. If Crawford and Lawrence are what we hope they can be, and if Carter can step it up and we find a middle LBer and if we get a solid safety tandem - we could be a solid defense. Not spectacular, but solid.

I'm not a Romo guy, but many believe he's elite. We have what looks to be a top 5 oline, we have a top 5 WR, we have a top 5 TE, we have a top 10 RB, we have a number 2 WR that many are saying could be a number 1, we have another weapon at TE if utilized. We have a hand picked OC. There should be no excuses for this offense to not be a top 5 scoring offense.

If we get that and a solid defense, we could make the playoffs.

But still a lot of questions to be answered.

Yeah, barring major injuries, this offense should be able to score in bunches.
I would be completely sure that would happen if Sean Payton was running the offense. But Linehan should do fine.

I truly do believe the defense will be better in both total defense and points allowed. How much so is what will make or break the season.

 

[Doomsday101]

in other words do not bother me with facts; my Mark 1 Eyeball trumps anything anyone else has to say.

No fact his over the last 2 years, he had a grand total of 6 sacks this past season and only 8.5 sacks over the last 22 games he has played that is Hardcore fact, he was also drawning a massive salery that too is FACT and yes you damn right a blind man could see it without looking at some stat by some person when fact is other stats show he did not get 30 some odd pressure I guess it depends on what the fool thinks is pressure. You want facts I gave you facts what you choose to believe or not is your deal not mine.

 

[CCBoy]

A chopper with a three man crew went down on a South Pacific Island. It was inhabited by Islanders that were headed by a chief.

Upon crashing, the 2LT, Sergeant, and PFC were quickly captured by the natives.

That night, a large campfire showed dancing and lots of chants. When suddenly it all stopped, and the chief walked up to the PFC and stated: 'You have a choice, either death or Bunji.' The PFC thought for a moment, and figured what ever Bunji was, that is was better than the alternative of death. so he stated, 'bunji!'

There was a loud roar, upon which the entire tribe took a turn at the PFC.

Well, the second night there was the same ceremony with the sudden silence and the chief walking up to the Sergeant. The same question was given to the Sergeant. He thought for a second, and decided a little humility was better than the alternative. So there again was a rancorous yell and each of the tribesmen took a turn on the poor Sergeant.

The Lieutenant was ready for the third night. When noise at the fire, he was prepared. He would set an example of pride for his men. So when the chief presented him with the same alternatives, the young Lieutenant responded with, 'Death!'

This time there was an even louder roar. To which the chief bellowed, 'Death by Bunji!'

 

[TheDude]

Are you maybe thinking about the thread where the made up argument that the offense wasn't effective when they weren't handed a turnover was exploded? Or the one where it shifted to pretend we then weren't effective offensively after turnovers until that got exploded?

Because I can't imagine many Garrett supporters actually arguing that takeaways on defense don't help you win NFL games. Garrett supporters tend to be posters who actually take measurements and statistics into account.

In all seriousness, I would love to know what you are referring to. Statistics supporting garrett or general observation that garrett supporters tend to be people who present stats in other arguements?