3-4 Update

[joseephuss]

1) Kenyon Coleman is a backup 3-4 and has nothing to do with NT depth like Glover

2) Yes, they could have restructured Glover but did not. Its not a Cap decision - they had till Sunday to retract his cut. It did not happen in fact DC.Com reaffirmed his cut. He's NOT in our plans - CBA or not. I love all this he's coming back hope - its really misguided!


Canty
Watson
Spears

Ware
Shanle
James
Carpenter

Good to go for a decade!

I never thought he was coming back. Why would he want to restructure and accept less money when he has value and can make money with other teams? I hoped he would come back and there is nothing wrong with that. He is quality and the team needs quality players. I have read enough of your posts over the years to know that you don't like quality players.

 

[DLCassidy]

A few of my own random ramblings.

Ngata does make sense for Buffalo with their dire tackle situation but that is a team that simply cannot afford to draft for need with as many holes as they have. Ngata did not have a great combine and he could slip a little, although probably not to 18. Buffalo is likely to lose Moulds so they may want to replace his offense with a Vernon Davis as an H back.

I think BP will take a lot of the pressure off of this draft in FA. There is no doubt in my mind he is "going for it" in 2006. People need to take a breath when they start to get worked up about the age of the OL if we bring in a couple more aging vets. I think we will and I agree with the strategy. Old is ok IF you're developing younger players to step in.

FA's- Marcus Coleman, Jason Fabini, Kevin Mawae, Sam Cowart, Ryan Longwell, Terrell Owens.

I think this is a draft we will be wheeling and dealing, trading down a couple times for more picks. At the end of the two days I see us coming out, in roughly this order with: OLB, OG, WR, NT, OT, ILB, TE, FB.

 

[TheHustler]

There was no cap reason to cut Glover - $1.5M bonus is peanuts and could have been restructured.

How about a $6 million salary? That peanuts too?

 

[CaptainAmerica]

I highly doubt we take a backup NT in Rd 1 when we need starters

Agree, trade down and pick up more picks is a possibility. He should go lower than Wilfork did.

 

[playit12]

I know Nors thinks that you must have a an "Anchor" NT, but I'm not sure that is the way we'll go with our second NT. There really is two lines of thoughts with regards to the interior 3-4.

The first is to use a huge 350 pound NT that effectively ties up two blockers but doesn't make tackles. He doesn't collapse the pocket, but by tying up blockers you can keep smaller, faster ILBs to make tackles. The pocket is controlled by the DEs, who then must be slightly smaller and faster.

The other method is to use a quicker NT that requires 1.5 blockers (either the center or guard full time and at least the other for a short time after the play starts). In this method the NT isn't required to hold the center of the line, but is expected to break pocket integridy and disrupt running plays behind the LOS. Because you have linemen getting past the first level, you need much large ILBs that can take on blockers and still clog the run lanes. You can also keep slower DEs, because they aren't expected to always pinch the pocket.

The patriots really should be the example for all 3-4 teams to aspire. They alternative between Vince Wilfork (our Fergy) and Ty Warren (the quicker NT) along their front. Neither guy is the body that Ted Washington was while at NE. Wilfork is more of a hybrid (like Fergy) while Warren can shoot the gaps and get to the QB. Of course this means that you need big ILBs. The Patriots have 6'1" 247 Bruschi and either McGinest 6'5" 270 or Vrabel 6'4" 261 at the other spot (depending on what depth chart you are going by). By the way, all three guys were converted DEs.

Instead of drafting a huge NT, I'd prefer to see the team use what we have... Thomas and Fergy with perhaps a low priced FA.

Then bring in some real meat to put besides James. I'm not looking at a College ILB or MLB. I'd prefer a DE around 245-250 and at least 6'3". We can bulk them up to 260+ in the off-season. I think this plays to our strengths. The guys we have at DE (except Ellis) are more strong than quick, and don't collapse the pocket quick enough. Plus teams would have much more to deal with if we combine Ware's outside rush with an inside penetration, compared to all the rush coming from the outside.

 

[Woods]

A few of my own random ramblings.

Ngata does make sense for Buffalo with their dire tackle situation but that is a team that simply cannot afford to draft for need with as many holes as they have. Ngata did not have a great combine and he could slip a little, although probably not to 18. Buffalo is likely to lose Moulds so they may want to replace his offense with a Vernon Davis as an H back.

I think BP will take a lot of the pressure off of this draft in FA. There is no doubt in my mind he is "going for it" in 2006. People need to take a breath when they start to get worked up about the age of the OL if we bring in a couple more aging vets. I think we will and I agree with the strategy. Old is ok IF you're developing younger players to step in.

FA's- Marcus Coleman, Jason Fabini, Kevin Mawae, Sam Cowart, Ryan Longwell, Terrell Owens.

I think this is a draft we will be wheeling and dealing, trading down a couple times for more picks. At the end of the two days I see us coming out, in roughly this order with: OLB, OG, WR, NT, OT, ILB, TE, FB.

I agree 100% with you in that JJ/BP are going to "go for it" this year.

I started a thread or two on this exact topic several weeks ago.

BP would not have stayed with the Cowboys or in coaching if he wouldn't have had a legitimate shot at the Super Bowl. IMO, that's the only significant reason he's hanging around. If he just wanted the money, he probably could have taken the GM spot with the Jets or another organization without as much direct and daily pressure.

I expect us to be active in FA, though probably with multiple "mid-ranged" acquisitions. And, this seems like a terrific draft to trade down, if you can find a partner. It appears some very solid players will be available in Round 2 and 3 for sure.

I'm not sure how successful we're going to be in finding a trading partner, however (at least where we get even value). It's the obvious trade this year.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

The patriots really should be the example for all 3-4 teams to aspire. They alternative between Vince Wilfork (our Fergy) and Ty Warren (the quicker NT) along their front. Neither guy is the body that Ted Washington was while at NE. Wilfork is more of a hybrid (like Fergy) while Warren can shoot the gaps and get to the QB.

The thing is Wilfork sucks. I laughed this year when he would get praise because mainly he was a first round pick playing for New England, only to watch him get dominated every game.

He was so bad that the Pats were forced to move Vrabel to ILB because teams were running with ease up the gut against the Patriots.

I remember Sal Palaontonio claiming that Wilfork was a force before the Denver playoff game and then watching Tom Nalen obliterate him all game long.

Warren is really an underappreciated player on the Pats because he can play some Nose Guard and is really good as a 3-4 DE and a 4-3 DT. They also have something great in Seymour.

What the Pats do so well is that they have a few guys that can play different positions very well and that adds to their depth and makes their defensive looks more complex.


Rich........

 

[DLCassidy]

The thing is Wilfork sucks. I laughed this year when he would get praise because mainly he was a first round pick playing for New England, only to watch him get dominated every game.

He was so bad that the Pats were forced to move Vrabel to ILB because teams were running with ease up the gut against the Patriots.

I remember Sal Palaontonio claiming that Wilfork was a force before the Denver playoff game and then watching Tom Nalen obliterate him all game long.

Warren is really an underappreciated player on the Pats because he can play some Nose Guard and is really good as a 3-4 DE and a 4-3 DT. They also have something great in Seymour.

What the Pats do so well is that they have a few guys that can play different positions very well and that adds to their depth and makes their defensive looks more complex.


Rich........

When Seymour was injured teams double teamed Wilfolk and he was dominated badly- couldn't anchor. When Seymour came back, presto NE could stop the run again because you have to double team Seymour. If I was starting a football team right now Seymour might be the 1st player I selected. He is an absolute beast.

 

[playit12]

The thing is Wilfork sucks. I laughed this year when he would get praise because mainly he was a first round pick playing for New England, only to watch him get dominated every game.

He was so bad that the Pats were forced to move Vrabel to ILB because teams were running with ease up the gut against the Patriots.

I remember Sal Palaontonio claiming that Wilfork was a force before the Denver playoff game and then watching Tom Nalen obliterate him all game long.

Warren is really an underappreciated player on the Pats because he can play some Nose Guard and is really good as a 3-4 DE and a 4-3 DT. They also have something great in Seymour.

What the Pats do so well is that they have a few guys that can play different positions very well and that adds to their depth and makes their defensive looks more complex.


Rich........

I'm not a Wilfork fan either.... I say he's a hybrid more because he doesn't do either type of NT well. However even with Vrable on the outside, the Pats are very large inside. I think that's the model. Let your NT penetrate and let your ILBs plug the gaps. Now with Dat out of the picture, I'd love to see us adopt this policy.

By the way, it also affects the other OLB position opposite of Ware. If you go big in the middle you need to keep an OLB that can drop into coverage. Personally I'd love to get a speedster over there. Something like a SS/LB tweener. He'd still be able to rush the passer and obviously drop into zone. But he'd also be able to cover a TE. The only weakness would be run support. But I think you can hide him behind someone like Canty. Just let Canty slide a little outside and your ILB stop the gaps inside of him.

 

[Nors]

I know Nors thinks that you must have a an "Anchor" NT, but I'm not sure that is the way we'll go with our second NT. There really is two lines of thoughts with regards to the interior 3-4.

The first is to use a huge 350 pound NT that effectively ties up two blockers but doesn't make tackles. He doesn't collapse the pocket, but by tying up blockers you can keep smaller, faster ILBs to make tackles. The pocket is controlled by the DEs, who then must be slightly smaller and faster.

The other method is to use a quicker NT that requires 1.5 blockers (either the center or guard full time and at least the other for a short time after the play starts). In this method the NT isn't required to hold the center of the line, but is expected to break pocket integridy and disrupt running plays behind the LOS. Because you have linemen getting past the first level, you need much large ILBs that can take on blockers and still clog the run lanes. You can also keep slower DEs, because they aren't expected to always pinch the pocket.

The patriots really should be the example for all 3-4 teams to aspire. They alternative between Vince Wilfork (our Fergy) and Ty Warren (the quicker NT) along their front. Neither guy is the body that Ted Washington was while at NE. Wilfork is more of a hybrid (like Fergy) while Warren can shoot the gaps and get to the QB. Of course this means that you need big ILBs. The Patriots have 6'1" 247 Bruschi and either McGinest 6'5" 270 or Vrabel 6'4" 261 at the other spot (depending on what depth chart you are going by). By the way, all three guys were converted DEs.

Instead of drafting a huge NT, I'd prefer to see the team use what we have... Thomas and Fergy with perhaps a low priced FA.

Then bring in some real meat to put besides James. I'm not looking at a College ILB or MLB. I'd prefer a DE around 245-250 and at least 6'3". We can bulk them up to 260+ in the off-season. I think this plays to our strengths. The guys we have at DE (except Ellis) are more strong than quick, and don't collapse the pocket quick enough. Plus teams would have much more to deal with if we combine Ware's outside rush with an inside penetration, compared to all the rush coming from the outside.

Good stuff - FYI tho the Pats won their SB's when they stuffed the inside with Ted Washington and Traylor bodies and later Wilfork.

They missed the stud NT rotation last year with undersized Warren in there - Wilfork lacks full time stamina.

I don't think you can controll LOS without a Massive anchor 3-4 NT. You need to keep your ILB clean also - or they all end up on IR and injured.

I want Kemoeatu, Ngata, Watson in there with Fergi.


Draft Carpenter, Wimbley, Anderson, Lawson on the other edge opposite Ware.

 

[playit12]

Good stuff - FYI tho the Pats won their SB's when they stuffed the inside with Ted Washington and Traylor bodies and later Wilfork.

They missed the stud NT rotation last year with undersized Warren in there - Wilfork lacks full time stamina.

I don't think you can controll LOS without a Massive anchor 3-4 NT. You need to keep your ILB clean also - or they all end up on IR and injured.

I want Kemoeatu, Ngata, Watson in there with Fergi.


Draft Carpenter, Wimbley, Anderson, Lawson on the other edge opposite Ware.

I think teams started to adapt to the Pats which lead to them getting smaller at NT. The Pats brought in Taylor after Ted don't forget. Taylor is not bad at that big body role, but in the end they dropped him and went smaller. Even Wilfork (who is listed at 325) is really not that large. I'd guess he's more like 310.

The only good big bodied NT in the league the last few years has been Grady Jackson. I can't think of anyone else that fills that role with any success. It's just too easy to defend.

For me it's not really about controlling the LOS. I really don't care about giving up 3 yard runs. I just want to limit them to 3 yards. No team is going to beat you running up the middle for short gains. So given the option of stopping at the LOS or giving up 3 yards in the middle... I consider both equally successful. On the other hand... the difference between old Ted Washington not getting one yard deep into the pocket and Ty Warren forcing the QB to escape the pocket (and thereby taking away half of the field of targets) is huge to the passing game. The more you can make the QB move, the more TO's you cause and Turn Overs are the single biggest contributor to team success defensively.

Certainly you won't be able to keep the ILBs clean with Warren Type NTs. But if you have DE's back there, then you don't need too. My ILB have little to no coverage responsibilities. They only have to limit inside runs to under 3 yards and make tackles. The definition of bend don't break.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

When Seymour was injured teams double teamed Wilfolk and he was dominated badly- couldn't anchor. When Seymour came back, presto NE could stop the run again because you have to double team Seymour. If I was starting a football team right now Seymour might be the 1st player I selected. He is an absolute beast.

Seymour being gone didn't help matters any, but Wilfork just hasn't been good with or without Seymour in the lineup. He was practically useless against the Raiders in the first game and they have one of the worst O-Lines in the game (even worse than the non-Flozell Cowboys O-Line).

Even when Seymour came back, like in the Denver game, Wilfork still got dominated.

I was a big fan of Wilfork in college and though NE got a steal when he was originally drafted, but after watching so many games of him in two years, I can see why he fell to #20 overall. He just hasn't been very good.

Rich...........

 

[Yakuza Rich]

I'm not a Wilfork fan either.... I say he's a hybrid more because he doesn't do either type of NT well. However even with Vrable on the outside, the Pats are very large inside. I think that's the model. Let your NT penetrate and let your ILBs plug the gaps. Now with Dat out of the picture, I'd love to see us adopt this policy.

By the way, it also affects the other OLB position opposite of Ware. If you go big in the middle you need to keep an OLB that can drop into coverage. Personally I'd love to get a speedster over there. Something like a SS/LB tweener. He'd still be able to rush the passer and obviously drop into zone. But he'd also be able to cover a TE. The only weakness would be run support. But I think you can hide him behind someone like Canty. Just let Canty slide a little outside and your ILB stop the gaps inside of him.

Like I posted earlier, I think Burnett will be a big key to the defense's effectiveness next year (assuming we stay healthy and get better at LOLB).

I feel that the tough positions to get in the 3-4 are the NG, weakside ILB, and the SS.

Most will feel the OLB are tough to get, but with today's college game revolving more and more around speed, getting a good...fast...but undersized college DE and turning him into a good 3-4 OLB is getting easier and easier.

The DE's in the 3-4 can be found by going after most college DT's and like Parcells said, playing DE in the 3-4 has more to do with slugging power than anything else.

And with the ILB's, the strongside guy is primarily there for plugging holes and taking on blocks. It's not too difficult to find somebody with the talent for that.

So that leaves with the Nose Guard which requires a humble, big guy to hold up the line and not get the stats or the fame for it. It takes a good weakside ILB who can make plays and occasionally take on blocks when needed to. And it takes a good, big SS that can stop the run and blitz when needed without being a liability in coverage.

I think for now we might have that with Ferguson, Burnett, and Roy. But Burnett is the big question mark for the moment. And even still, they'll have to look at a nose guard for the future.


Rich....

 

[playit12]

Like I posted earlier, I think Burnett will be a big key to the defense's effectiveness next year (assuming we stay healthy and get better at LOLB).

I feel that the tough positions to get in the 3-4 are the NG, weakside ILB, and the SS.

Most will feel the OLB are tough to get, but with today's college game revolving more and more around speed, getting a good...fast...but undersized college DE and turning him into a good 3-4 OLB is getting easier and easier.

The DE's in the 3-4 can be found by going after most college DT's and like Parcells said, playing DE in the 3-4 has more to do with slugging power than anything else.

And with the ILB's, the strongside guy is primarily there for plugging holes and taking on blocks. It's not too difficult to find somebody with the talent for that.

So that leaves with the Nose Guard which requires a humble, big guy to hold up the line and not get the stats or the fame for it. It takes a good weakside ILB who can make plays and occasionally take on blocks when needed to. And it takes a good, big SS that can stop the run and blitz when needed without being a liability in coverage.

I think for now we might have that with Ferguson, Burnett, and Roy. But Burnett is the big question mark for the moment. And even still, they'll have to look at a nose guard for the future.


Rich....

I think that's a good description of one of the types of the 3-4... I just would prefer us to go in the other dirrection. I like the Ty Warrens over the Ted Washingtons.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

I think that's a good description of one of the types of the 3-4... I just would prefer us to go in the other dirrection. I like the Ty Warrens over the Ted Washingtons.

I do too. In fact, the Patriots were adamant about trying to get Wilfork's weight down as the big Washington types usually play good for a year or two, then stink, then get back into shape, etc.

I don't think Warren works as a full time Nose Guard, but I like something along the lines of a Casey Hampton type in terms of size and ability.

Rich........

 

[Natedawg44]

I don't understand all of this nose guard talk. Did we just waste a 9 million SB on Ferguson or what? Ted Washington is a free agent, so is Sam Adams or this Kimono Dragon whatever the heck his name is guy. With all of the holes on this team why would we use our first rounder on Ngata or a second on Watson when we need STARTERS at ILB, OLB, FS, RT as well as young legs at WR and depth along the line at both Guard Spots. It just seems like a waste of resources to me when we are talking about depth, unless the Ferguson signing was a complete waste like Rivera.

 

[Nors]

I don't understand all of this nose guard talk. Did we just waste a 9 million SB on Ferguson or what? Ted Washington is a free agent, so is Sam Adams or this Kimono Dragon whatever the heck his name is guy. With all of the holes on this team why would we use our first rounder on Ngata or a second on Watson when we need STARTERS at ILB, OLB, FS, RT as well as young legs at WR and depth along the line at both Guard Spots. It just seems like a waste of resources to me when we are talking about depth, unless the Ferguson signing was a complete waste like Rivera.

Its rotation. With Glover gone we need another wide body in the middle. Look at our great 90 front lines - we rotated Maryland, Casillas, Jones, Lett in and out.

You need 2 3-4 NT's to make this work - makes Spears, Canty, Ware better and keeps your LB's from breaking their necks, wings.

Tho bigger LBers oare on the way in 2006 too!

 

[Natedawg44]

I understand that but a 1st or 2nd rounder with all of the holes that we need this offseason. All we are talking about is depth. Why use a 1st or 2nd rounder for depth when we need immediate starters. Use Free Agency.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

I understand that but a 1st or 2nd rounder with all of the holes that we need this offseason. All we are talking about is depth. Why use a 1st or 2nd rounder for depth when we need immediate starters. Use Free Agency.

I'm more worried about the future. I feel confident in Ferguson's ability, but if he gets injured, then they are in a bit of a pickle. So depth and future nose guard is a concern. Even still, I don't think they should draft a NG until the 3rd round.


Rich......

 

[joseephuss]

Its rotation. With Glover gone we need another wide body in the middle. Look at our great 90 front lines - we rotated Maryland, Casillas, Jones, Lett in and out.

You need 2 3-4 NT's to make this work - makes Spears, Canty, Ware better and keeps your LB's from breaking their necks, wings.

Tho bigger LBers oare on the way in 2006 too!

Dallas doesn't just need bigger linebackers, they need better linebackers. Shanle was bigger than Dat, but he wasn't as good. Don't just look at the scales in evaluating the LBs, they need to be talented as well.