38 million a year, what can that buy?

[ABQCOWBOY]

Oh if its the franchise tag teams would just wait 2 years like with Kirk. He said let him walk which is entirely different. There is no reason for Dak to not just wait 2 years under the tag if that is the case because he will make more after.

But in two years, we can work out a trade and draft a replacement. We can bring in a vet to bridge the gap. We are not without options and our cap is still in good shape. Besides, two years is a long time. Two years puts you outside the window of another follow on big money contract. Dak's age will be more of a factor as time goes on. He is a throw on the run, physical QB. He is not a pocket passer that will be able to do it like Brady. The older he gets, the less he will be worth IMO. Two years is a long time in terms of follow on money contracts.

 

[montgod]

But in two years, we can work out a trade and draft a replacement. We can bring in a vet to bridge the gap. We are not without options and our cap is still in good shape. Besides, two years is a long time. Two years puts you outside the window of another follow on big money contract. Dak's age will be more of a factor as time goes on. He is a throw on the run, physical QB. He is not a pocket passer that will be able to do it like Brady. The older he gets, the less he will be worth IMO. Two years is a long time in terms of follow on money contracts.

I agree, if he continues to play this game, you plan accordingly for this for the next 2 years with the tag on him. If he progresses and wins the games they need to convince the brass he's the one, then they break the bank and write up contract accordingly to salary cap escalation. If he doesn't, I am skeptical in finding a QB in that time, but at least you're not locked into one who isn't. For now there are a lot of stop-gap qb FAs who can help while they draft a QB to develop.

What does the new CBA say about teams being able to use the franchise tag for 2 years and how many games a player is required to play to equal a year or something in regards to if Dak holds out?

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I agree, if he continues to play this game, you plan accordingly for this for the next 2 years with the tag on him. If he progresses and wins the games they need to convince the brass he's the one, then they break the bank and write up contract accordingly to salary cap escalation. If he doesn't, I am skeptical in finding a QB in that time, but at least you're not locked into one who isn't. For now there are a lot of stop-gap qb FAs who can help while they draft a QB to develop.

What does the new CBA say about teams being able to use the franchise tag for 2 years and how many games a player is required to play to equal a year or something in regards to if Dak holds out?

I too have a feeling that this will be addressed in the new CBA and I'd guess that it will be in favor of the Owners because nobody wants a trend where you have QBs signing record deals just because they are the next guy in line. It's seriously a really bad model and it essentially locks teams into poor QB choices, more times then not. The idea should be to find your guy at QB and then compensate them handsomely, according to how talented, how effective they are. This model that is being used now is basically a seniority model where people get paid according to how long they have on the job. That's not what sports is about. If it were, then you would simply start guys based on how long they have been with the team and not according to who has more talent, who is better. This is a bad trend for the NFL IMO and I think the Owners know this. This is why I believe it will change to the advantage of the Owners. Dak, IMO, would be wise to get something done, one way or the other, before any such changes can occure. Very good point.

 

[montgod]

Last I looked, franchise was around 28-29 mill so he'd lose out and still have to prove himself this year and go through all this again next summer. It would go up again next year, but his performance this upcoming year would tell you if he is worth keeping or not. Starting to remind me of the Cousins' situation with the Skins.

Correction, it's currently 31.6mill for Franchise tag. Not bad if he doesn't hold out.

 

[OmerV]

But don't you see, that's why I think it's fine for the Cowboys to take a stand on how they wish to spend cap. Yes, teams have facilitated the problem we see with QBs in the past but at some point, you have to right that ship. It's a very bad model IMO. Paying the next guy up a record deal simply because he is the next guy up? That's horrible business.

In fairness, if the "next guy up" were Mariota or Keenum or Flacco, they wouldn't be in the same position as Dak, so there is more to it than simply being the next guy up.

It may not be a good model to pay skyrocketing costs, but it's also not a good model to go with a poor substitute at such a key position, which is what NFL teams are thinking when they agree to pay big salaries to QB's. And realistically the Cowboys drawing a line won't solve the problem because other teams will continue paying the salaries. That's just supply and demand economics.

 

[OmerV]

38 million a year, what can that buy?

A nice cottage in the woods, and enough left over for my wife to have a pretty pair of shoes.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

In fairness, if the "next guy up" were Mariota or Keenum or Flacco, they wouldn't be in the same position as Dak, so there is more to it than simply being the next guy up.

It may not be a good model to pay skyrocketing costs, but it's also not a good model to go with a poor substitute at such a key position, which is what NFL teams are thinking when they agree to pay big salaries to QB's. And realistically the Cowboys drawing a line won't solve the problem because other teams will continue paying the salaries. That's just supply and demand economics.

Well, Keenum might be, I don't know. Mariota and Flacco would not be because neither of them are starters so it's apples and oranges there, IMO.

Specifically, we don't know that the Cowboys drawing a line won't change the dynamics. Heck, we don't know that Jerry is not getting pressure from other owners to hold the line because this is part of the plan. Other Owners and Jerry have done this before. They have used Jerry and the Cowboys to act as the water marker for key issues. We don't know any of that but I'll tell you the message it would send. It would say that the Cowboys will not operate that way and that's a shot across the bow to France and CAA. That's pretty key to me. France isn't going anywhere. He is going to be Dak's agent for the foreseeable future. You let him get away with this deal now and he's going to be a problem every other year. This is exactly what he did with Aaron Donald. No thanks.

 

[montgod]

In fairness, if the "next guy up" were Mariota or Keenum or Flacco, they wouldn't be in the same position as Dak, so there is more to it than simply being the next guy up.

It may not be a good model to pay skyrocketing costs, but it's also not a good model to go with a poor substitute at such a key position, which is what NFL teams are thinking when they agree to pay big salaries to QB's. And realistically the Cowboys drawing a line won't solve the problem because other teams will continue paying the salaries. That's just supply and demand economics.

I see your point but out of the 2 qbs you mentioned, only Mariota would be a good comparison especially since this last year, Tannehill proved that Tenn had enough weapons to compete and the deficiency was at the qb spot. I'm not going to say Tenn weapons are on equal ground as what Dal currently has which has definitely helped Dak out tremendously. Keenum and Flacco got their level of big money and both flaked out right after getting it. At least Flacco earned it the year he got the SB but his team definitely was hurt in giving him all that moola w/o a great plan forward for the rest of the team.

The bottomline is the Boys should have taken care of this, at the latest, last year especially when Zeke got his money. They didn't so their options are limited. Overpay or tag him and risk him holding out (meaning need a backup) and making the cap a little more inflexible for other FA signings - which could in-turn affect Dak's bottom line as well when this comes up again next year. I don't know numbers off hand, but Dak with Cooper vs Dak without Cooper definitely helped his numbers.

 

[Adreme]

But in two years, we can work out a trade and draft a replacement. We can bring in a vet to bridge the gap. We are not without options and our cap is still in good shape. Besides, two years is a long time. Two years puts you outside the window of another follow on big money contract. Dak's age will be more of a factor as time goes on. He is a throw on the run, physical QB. He is not a pocket passer that will be able to do it like Brady. The older he gets, the less he will be worth IMO. Two years is a long time in terms of follow on money contracts.

He has veto power over the trade. Also two years raises the money he gets because the contract value goes so he will easily make back franchise tag money lost and more. His age is not really a factor because he will be a 28 year old QB which still means 2 big contracts (it would matter if he were not a QB but QBs last longer). He does get hit and he does not get hurt; his age will not hurt him in the same way it hurt Cam, it is more in the vein of Wilson where his age is just a number that does not matter. I am not going to break down the math of drafting a QB in the first round again (it gets worse later on), but even if you do that WITH him on the roster you basically cripple the trade value because teams know you HAVE to trade him so you are stuck in awkward position.

 

[Ranched]

Fuel for Jerry's yacht!

 

[montgod]

He has veto power over the trade. Also two years raises the money he gets because the contract value goes so he will easily make back franchise tag money lost and more. His age is not really a factor because he will be a 28 year old QB which still means 2 big contracts (it would matter if he were not a QB but QBs last longer). He does get hit and he does not get hurt; his age will not hurt him in the same way it hurt Cam, it is more in the vein of Wilson where his age is just a number that does not matter. I am not going to break down the math of drafting a QB in the first round again (it gets worse later on), but even if you do that WITH him on the roster you basically cripple the trade value because teams know you HAVE to trade him so you are stuck in awkward position.

Correct, which is why Dal if they are not going to pay him and tag him instead this year, need to look at what their options are to trade him this year and before next year when his value is at it's peak. I feel like the demand would be there to trade for him and pay him what he wants on another team. MIA, LAC, OAK, CAR, TB, IND come to mind as options off the top of my head.

As I stated before, I am not confident though that Dal could maneuver this in a way that fully benefits them so at this point, I see them overpaying or tagging and letting it play out.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

He has veto power over the trade. Also two years raises the money he gets because the contract value goes so he will easily make back franchise tag money lost and more. His age is not really a factor because he will be a 28 year old QB which still means 2 big contracts (it would matter if he were not a QB but QBs last longer). He does get hit and he does not get hurt; his age will not hurt him in the same way it hurt Cam, it is more in the vein of Wilson where his age is just a number that does not matter. I am not going to break down the math of drafting a QB in the first round again (it gets worse later on), but even if you do that WITH him on the roster you basically cripple the trade value because teams know you HAVE to trade him so you are stuck in awkward position.

So what. If he wants to get paid 40, then why is he going to veto anything? His age is a factor because we are not talking about this contract. We are talking about his ability to sign premium contracts for the life of his career. This idea that he doesn't get hurt is nonsense. According to Dak, he was hurt during the Philly game, which is why he couldn't complete a 10 yard pass. So that's not true at all. As he gets older, it's definitely going to get worse. BTW, he will be 29, I believe, in his new contract year. So that puts him at 34 on a five year deal. He's not playing the same way at 39, if he's playing at all. I don't agree with that.

Teams who need QBs are not going to hold off because of some "crippling" effect. That makes no sense. If you hold off, that only introduces compatition, which drives price. Teams will negotiate trades and try to leverage the fact that the Cowboys can control the bid market. That's the way it would work.

 

[montgod]

So what. If he wants to get paid 40, then why is he going to veto anything? His age is a factor because we are not talking about this contract. We are talking about his ability to sign premium contracts for the life of his career. This idea that he doesn't get hurt is nonsense. According to Dak, he was hurt during the Philly game, which is why he couldn't complete a 10 yard pass. So that's not true at all. As he gets older, it's definitely going to get worse. BTW, he will be 29, I believe, in his new contract year. So that puts him at 34 on a five year deal. He's not playing the same way at 39, if he's playing at all. I don't agree with that.

Teams who need QBs are not going to hold off because of some "crippling" effect. That makes no sense. If you hold off, that only introduces compatition, which drives price. Teams will negotiate trades and try to leverage the fact that the Cowboys can control the bid market. That's the way it would work.

I think @Adreme was just pointing out that after the 2nd yr of being franchised, he'd be a free agent to do what he wants and not agree to a trade to benefit the Boys.

 

[OmerV]

Well, Keenum might be, I don't know. Mariota and Flacco would not be because neither of them are starters so it's apples and oranges there, IMO.

Specifically, we don't know that the Cowboys drawing a line won't change the dynamics. Heck, we don't know that Jerry is not getting pressure from other owners to hold the line because this is part of the plan. Other Owners and Jerry have done this before. They have used Jerry and the Cowboys to act as the water marker for key issues. We don't know any of that but I'll tell you the message it would send. It would say that the Cowboys will not operate that way and that's a shot across the bow to France and CAA. That's pretty key to me. France isn't going anywhere. He is going to be Dak's agent for the foreseeable future. You let him get away with this deal now and he's going to be a problem every other year. This is exactly what he did with Aaron Donald. No thanks.

No chance Keenum would be talked about as a $30+ MM a year guy. And its true that Mariota is no longer a starter, but even if he had held the starting position through the end of 2019 he still wouldn't be looking at $30+ MM a year because it was clear he was losing hold of the position. The point is the QB's that atrre solid and consistent starters and are treated as quality NFL starting QB's will be the "next up" guys that get big contracts. Journeymen like Keenum, or fading starters like Mariota wouldn't get the same kind of money just because they are the next up.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I think @Adreme was just pointing out that after the 2nd yr of being franchised, he'd be a free agent to do what he wants and not agree to a trade to benefit the Boys.

I agree, but so what? Bottom line, if he doesn't want to play for the Cowboys at the price they are willing to offer and he want's 40, then what does it matter? Why would he veto a trade if another team is willing to pay him what he's asking for? Unless he wants to stay in Dallas and that idea creates leverage for the team. So either he takes a contract that pays him what he wants or he signs the deal that Dallas is willing to offer. Either way, I don't see a scenario where he just sits out for two years.

JMO

 

[Adreme]

So what. If he wants to get paid 40, then why is he going to veto anything? His age is a factor because we are not talking about this contract. We are talking about his ability to sign premium contracts for the life of his career. This idea that he doesn't get hurt is nonsense. According to Dak, he was hurt during the Philly game, which is why he couldn't complete a 10 yard pass. So that's not true at all. As he gets older, it's definitely going to get worse. BTW, he will be 29, I believe, in his new contract year. So that puts him at 34 on a five year deal. He's not playing the same way at 39, if he's playing at all. I don't agree with that.

Teams who need QBs are not going to hold off because of some "crippling" effect. That makes no sense. If you hold off, that only introduces compatition, which drives price. Teams will negotiate trades and try to leverage the fact that the Cowboys can control the bid market. That's the way it would work.

Dak will be able to sign premium contracts until around the age of 33-34 meaning you can tag him twice and he is 28, he signs a 5 year deal and in then signs ANOTHER one. The tag does not affect him the way it does others. Also all QBs are hurt at times. Its not a shocking thing. Rodgers missed large chunks of seasons injured, Brady missed an entire year and caused the NFL to change to the rules to prevent that, Ben had an elbow injury, and it happens. Players get hit and players are hurting but it does not change their value. So basically he has 2 premium contracts that are available to him even if you tag him twice because he is a QB therefore there is no leverage. He knows it and the Cowboys know it which is why there is this problem.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

No chance Keenum would be talked about as a $30+ MM a year guy. And its true that Mariota is no longer a starter, but even if he had held the starting position through the end of 2019 he still wouldn't be looking at $30+ MM a year because it was clear he was losing hold of the position. The point is the QB's that atrre solid and consistent starters and are treated as quality NFL starting QB's will be the "next up" guys that get big contracts. Journeymen like Keenum, or fading starters like Mariota wouldn't get the same kind of money just because they are the next up.

I would have said the same about Dak and yet, here we are.

 

[Adreme]

I think @Adreme was just pointing out that after the 2nd yr of being franchised, he'd be a free agent to do what he wants and not agree to a trade to benefit the Boys.

Basically yes. Plus he can get the power of the open market driving his price up which is stronger than being on one roster so by the time you tag him twice he might just want to hit free agency barring some Aaron Donald like market resetting offer.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Dak will be able to sign premium contracts until around the age of 33-34 meaning you can tag him twice and he is 28, he signs a 5 year deal and in then signs ANOTHER one. The tag does not affect him the way it does others. Also all QBs are hurt at times. Its not a shocking thing. Rodgers missed large chunks of seasons injured, Brady missed an entire year and caused the NFL to change to the rules to prevent that, Ben had an elbow injury, and it happens. Players get hit and players are hurting but it does not change their value. So basically he has 2 premium contracts that are available to him even if you tag him twice because he is a QB therefore there is no leverage. He knows it and the Cowboys know it which is why there is this problem.

Ben and Brady are pocket passers. Rodgers is too. That's not Dak. Dak can not do what they do, he fits a different style of Offense. I'm not going to get down into the weeds on this. I don't see that for Dak and I don't believe it's wise to view his career in that light. He won't be as effective at 38/39 so rather then three premium deals, he's likely to only see two and the second will probably not be premium. The money will be good but the guaranteed money will not be nearly as good IMO. Other QBs can see three deals, he will see two IMO.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Basically yes. Plus he can get the power of the open market driving his price up which is stronger than being on one roster so by the time you tag him twice he might just want to hit free agency barring some Aaron Donald like market resetting offer.

He can't really prevent a trade. He doesn't have final say. So if the Cowboys were to trade him and he refused to report, then he essentially forgoes a season. It's not like he can just sit around for two years right?