49ers Add Linebacker Banta-Cain

[Rack]

Well, we know (1) Wade likes Carpenter's athleticism, (2) he has talked about rushing the QB quite a bit, but has never talked about Carpenter rushing the QB more, (3) Wade has stated that Ellis will be playing LOLB, and (4) we're looking at OLB 'tweener types in the draft.

In addition, Wade said they were looking at drafting Carpenter in San Diego, but at the time they had Shaun Phillips and Shawn Merriman on the outside and both were locks at their positions. They did, however, have a couple 33+ year old ILBs at the time, which leads me to believe that if they were seriously looking at him, they were looking at him for an inside position. Thus, Wade (like many others, including New England and Parcells himself) may see Carpenter as an ILB rather than OLB in the 3-4.

Just reading the tea leaves...

Wade never said Ellis will play LOLB.

Wade has said that Carp was one of the guys the Chargers were looking at in the draft last year BECAUSE of his ability to rush the passer.

Parcells himself? BP drafted him to play OLB. Only when he saw Ellis was gonna get it done at the position did he move him inside (he said so himself). And what happened when Ellis went down? He moved Carp back outside.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

master and apprentice go at it again...

 

[theogt]

Wade never said Ellis will play LOLB.

Wade has said that Carp was one of the guys the Chargers were looking at in the draft last year BECAUSE of his ability to rush the passer.

Parcells himself? BP drafted him to play OLB. Only when he saw Ellis was gonna get it done at the position did he move him inside (he said so himself). And what happened when Ellis went down? He moved Carp back outside.

Wade has openly stated that Ellis will be playing LOLB, the position that Merriman plays. He could be full of it -- in fact, he could just be saying those things to push Ellis in his rehab. No one really knows, but if we're reading tea leaves, that's what we have to go by.

I don't beleive Wade ever mentioned Carpenter's ability to rush the passer when talking about San Diego potentially drafting him. He just made a few boiler plate statements like, "we liked his athleticism," etc.

Parcells has stated that he liked Carpenter's ability to play inside and outside. He started camp inside. It's not as if he was forced inside -- he started inside. People always assumed he was drafted to play outside. I think Parcells hoped that Ellis could play outside allowing Carp to play inside. Carp didn't move outside until Ellis went down. In the end, it's all about how you look at it -- you could just as easily say Carp wasn't forced to play inside, rather he was forced to play outside.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Where Carp plays with Ellis back in the fold will be interesting to see, no doubt.

I have this funny feeling Wade is going to not take all that long to figure out where he wants to play everyone. He seems to have a simple approach to everything: First, get the four best LBs on the field. Then, figure out where they play best.

Finally, teach them the system and let them play ball.

I still wonder if Ellis might not play some DE in the new slanting and stunting 34. I dunno, but we know Phillips isn't as preoccupied with size as Parcells was. So IMO he won't be forcing guys into places like Parcells seemed to at times.

 

[dbair1967]

Burnett or Carpenter >>> Banta Cain

David

 

[Rack]

Wade has openly stated that Ellis will be playing LOLB, the position that Merriman plays.

It's SOLB, not LOLB. They move Merriman around.


And just cuz Wade said Ellis would PLAY that position doesn't mean he'll start.

 

[theogt]

It's SOLB, not LOLB. They move Merriman around.


And just cuz Wade said Ellis would PLAY that position doesn't mean he'll start.

They did move Merriman around, but it wasn't always to follow the strong side, so the strong/weak distinction is even less useful.

Wade said that Ellis would be "playing Merriman's role" in the defense. Merriman's role is starting LOLB. I recognize that Wade could be full of it, but you asked why I thought that Carpenter was moving inside, and that was part of my answer.

 

[Deputy493]

Damn. I wanted this guy here. Figured he'd be a good fit at a reasonable price tag. Oh well.

Nothing stopped the "draft guru" Parcells from drafting him as fell and fell and fell in his draft.

 

[theogt]

Nothing stopped the "draft guru" Parcells from drafting him as fell and fell and fell in his draft.

I'm sure it was his 4.8 40 time that stopped him from drafting him. On the bright side (no pun intended) he got a 35 on the Wonderlic.

 

[Rack]

They did move Merriman around, but it wasn't always to follow the strong side, so the strong/weak distinction is even less useful.

Wade said that Ellis would be "playing Merriman's role" in the defense. Merriman's role is starting LOLB. I recognize that Wade could be full of it, but you asked why I thought that Carpenter was moving inside, and that was part of my answer.

If they move Merriman around, then he doesn't play LOLB, does he? He's their SOLB. It really is about time you learn the difference. The only thing stopping you from learning is you.


1. There's no guarantee Ellis will even EVER be close to the player he was before. In fact, it's highly unlikely.

2. Even if he does come back healthy, it doesn't mean Carp will automatically be moved inside and it doesn't mean Ellis will automatically be the starter.

3. At some point Burnett has to get a chance to get on the field. He'd fit well at ILB and that's where we have the need, not at OLB.

 

[UDcowboysfan]

san fran adding some good players this offseason. too bad they still have alex "small hands" smith as qb

You would know

 

[theogt]

If they move Merriman around, then he doesn't play LOLB, does he? He's their SOLB. It really is about time you learn the difference. The only thing stopping you from learning is you.

I just use Left instead of Strong, because the left side isn't always the strong side. It doesn't really matter. I just think the strong/weak description is pretty useless. Merriman plays left more than he plays right, so the left/right distinction is more useful. When he plays right it doesn't necessarily mean the right side is the strong side. He doesn't switch sides when the offense switches from strong right to strong left, so the strong/weak distinction isn't very helpful at all. Wade uses the strong/weak distinction in his playbook, but it doesn't really matter. I prefer using the left/right distinction so I'll keep doing so.

1. There's no guarantee Ellis will even EVER be close to the player he was before. In fact, it's highly unlikely.

Maybe. Greg, Wade, and Jerry seem to think otherwise. Maybe they're being too optimistic. I really don't know enough about Ellis' injury to know the degree of likelihood that he'll be back. None of us really do.

2. Even if he does come back healthy, it doesn't mean Carp will automatically be moved inside and it doesn't mean Ellis will automatically be the starter.

You're right, it doesn't necessarily mean Carpenter will be moved inside, but from Wade's own words it appears he wants Ellis in the starting LOLB role and it appears we'll be drafting an OLB, so it looks to me like Carpenter is most likely being moved inside. I'm just going by the head coach's own words and actions. If you think he's full of it, or doesn't know what he's talking about, that's fine.

3. At some point Burnett has to get a chance to get on the field. He'd fit well at ILB and that's where we have the need, not at OLB.

He doesn't really have to get on the field. Wade may want him onfield or he may think he's the 5th best linebacker. I haven't heard Wade or Jerry make any comments either way, so I don't really know what they're thinking.

 

[Rack]

I just use Left instead of Strong, because the left side isn't always the strong side.

Which is exactly why you should use SOLB and WOLB.

Merriman isn't always a LOLB so why would you refer to him as such?

I'm pretty sure Wade Phillips doesn't refer to his OLBs as "Left" or "Right". He calls them "Sam" and "Will" (or some other name. At MSU our def coach called us Thunder for the SOLB and Lightning for the WOLB).

It doesn't really matter. I just think the strong/weak description is pretty useless.

Like I said, you still haven't learned.

Merriman plays left more than he plays right, so the left/right distinction is more useful.

Most offensive team's strong side is to their right, so of course the SOLB would most often be on the Left. But he's not ALWAYS on the left so therefore he isn't a LOLB.

I prefer using the left/right distinction so I'll keep doing so.

Then you'll continue to be wrong.

Maybe. Greg, Wade, and Jerry seem to think otherwise. Maybe they're being too optimistic. I really don't know enough about Ellis' injury to know the degree of likelihood that he'll be back. None of us really do.

Actually I do. I've seen that injury occur before.

And what are Greg, Wade, and JJ suppose to say? Of course they're gonna be optimistic. What is the alternative?

You're right, it doesn't necessarily mean Carpenter will be moved inside, but from Wade's own words it appears he wants Ellis in the starting LOLB role and it appears we'll be drafting an OLB, so it looks to me like Carpenter is most likely being moved inside. I'm just going by the head coach's own words and actions. If you think he's full of it, or doesn't know what he's talking about, that's fine.

What makes you think we'll draft an OLB?

Wade's own words praised Carp's abilities to play OLB. How convenient of you to read more into what he says regarding one player, then disregard what he says regarding another player.

Did you ever think maybe it appears (supposedly) we'll be drafting an OLB in the later rounds as depth due to Ellis' injury or because they plan on moving Burnett inside?

I don't think Wade is full of it. I think YOU'RE full of it.

He doesn't really have to get on the field. Wade may want him onfield or he may think he's the 5th best linebacker. I haven't heard Wade or Jerry make any comments either way, so I don't really know what they're thinking.

The only true thing you've said in this discussion.

You don't know what they're thinking. They probably don't even know what they're thinking. I'm sure they'll wait to see how Ellis' rehab is going before the start "thinking" towards anything. Either way it would be incredibly STUPID to believe Ellis is coming back full force. Ellis will likely be a part time player next year (backup OLB and nickel DE).

 

[theogt]

Which is exactly why you should use SOLB and WOLB.

Merriman isn't always a LOLB so why would you refer to him as such?

Most offensive team's strong side is to their right, so of course the SOLB would most often be on the Left. But he's not ALWAYS on the left so therefore he isn't a LOLB.

Let me see if I can break this down into as simple terms as I can get.

Merriman doesn't always play the left side. Merriman doesn't always play the strong side either. The distinction that I believe best describes the position he plays on defense is LOLB.

Why? Because he doesn't change sides when the offense changes from strong left to strong right. The only effect of the strong and weak offense is, as you indicated, that offenses play strong side to the defensive left most often. However, I think that Merriman plays on the left side at a higher rate than he plays on the strong side.

For example, let's say that offenses play strong (defensive) left 60% of the time. Also, let's assume that Merriman plays on the left side 80% of the time. Let's also assume that the times when Merriman plays on the right side is completely random, having no relationship to whether than offense is strong right or strong left. On average he woud play on the strong side 56% of the time, whether it was on the right or the left. However, as we had assumed he played on the left side 80% of the time. Therefore, the left/right distinction is more descriptive of us role than the strong/weak description.

That's about as simple as I can break it down for you Rack. A 10 year old should be able to understand it. Hopefully you can too.

Actually I do. I've seen that injury occur before.

You haven't seen Greg's injury. You've seen achilles injuries before, but you have seen Greg's. You don't know the extent to which he was injured. You, like the rest of us, haven't seen the X-rays, etc. You're only guessing.

And what are Greg, Wade, and JJ suppose to say? Of course they're gonna be optimistic. What is the alternative?

Well you don't see them being overly optimistic about Rivera's injury. They made it a priority to replace him in free agency. If they don't think he can return, they can simply say that. Regardless, it's what they're saying and until I have reason to believe they're outright lying, I'll take it as their true belief.

What makes you think we'll draft an OLB?

Because we interviewed about every 'tweener available in the past several weeks. Then again, maybe they're just all great conversationalists.

Wade's own words praised Carp's abilities to play OLB. How convenient of you to read more into what he says regarding one player, then disregard what he says regarding another player.

Wade never praised his ability to play OLB or his ability to rush the QB.

Did you ever think maybe it appears (supposedly) we'll be drafting an OLB in the later rounds as depth due to Ellis' injury or because they plan on moving Burnett inside?

It's a possibility that we're looking to draft an OLB only to have him as 4th on the OLB depth chart, but that doesn't appear likely.

The only true thing you've said in this discussion.

You don't know what they're thinking. They probably don't even know what they're thinking. I'm sure they'll wait to see how Ellis' rehab is going before the start "thinking" towards anything. Either way it would be incredibly STUPID to believe Ellis is coming back full force. Ellis will likely be a part time player next year (backup OLB and nickel DE).

You're right, neither of us know what they're thinking. I've just read what they've been saying and doing and drawn my conclusions. If you disagree, that's fine. I'd actually rather have you disagree because that's typically a good indicator of being correct.

 

[Rack]

Let me see if I can break this down into as simple terms as I can get.

Why would you have a problem with simple terms? It's the only thing you understand (on your good days).

Merriman doesn't always play the left side. Merriman doesn't always play the strong side either. The distinction that I believe best describes the position he plays on defense is LOLB.

Well... you're wrong. And it's real simple, whether it's SOLB or WOLB, if he doesn't play on the LEFT side all the time, then he's not a LOLB. Period.

Why? Because he doesn't change sides when the offense changes from strong left to strong right. The only effect of the strong and weak offense is, as you indicated, that offenses play strong side to the defensive left most often. However, I think that Merriman plays on the left side at a higher rate than he plays on the strong side.

Offenses line up in a strong RIGHT formation more often then they line up in a strong left formation so OF COURSE he's on the left more often.

He's still not a LOLB cuz he's not always on the left side.

For example, let's say that offenses play strong (defensive) left 60% of the time. Also, let's assume that Merriman plays on the left side 80% of the time. Let's also assume that the times when Merriman plays on the right side is completely random, having no relationship to whether than offense is strong right or strong left. On average he woud play on the strong side 56% of the time, whether it was on the right or the left. However, as we had assumed he played on the left side 80% of the time. Therefore, the left/right distinction is more descriptive of us role than the strong/weak description.

That's a whole lot of assumptions you make... and of course all these assumptions support your "theory". Of course, those assumptions aren't all true.

That's about as simple as I can break it down for you Rack. A 10 year old should be able to understand it. Hopefully you can too.

Well since you can't seem to grasp the difference between a LOLB and a SOLB then I guess your education level is below that of a 10 year old.

You haven't seen Greg's injury. You've seen achilles injuries before, but you have seen Greg's. You don't know the extent to which he was injured. You, like the rest of us, haven't seen the X-rays, etc. You're only guessing.

You're only hoping. I have the history of that injury backing up my "guess". You have only hope.

Well you don't see them being overly optimistic about Rivera's injury. They made it a priority to replace him in free agency. If they don't think he can return, they can simply say that. Regardless, it's what they're saying and until I have reason to believe they're outright lying, I'll take it as their true belief.

Apples & Oranges. Rivera is 35 years old and this is the SECOND back injury he's had in less then two years. It's too obvious he's gonna be replaced, they can't play that off as if he might return to his former self (GB).

Because we interviewed about every 'tweener available in the past several weeks. Then again, maybe they're just all great conversationalists.

We need DEPTH at OLB (especially with Ellis' injury situation - of course you didn't add that into your "theory"). Doesn't mean we're gonna draft one early. Plus there's other positions we don't need that I'm sure we interviewed.

In any sense, quit being so hypocritical. On one hand you're sure Ellis will be just fine, yet you think we're gonna draft an OLB/Tweener.

Could it possibly be that they want to move Burnett inside (losing Depth at OLB) and with Ellis' inury status that could even further weaken our depth at OLB? Nah, couldn't be that, it doesn't support your agenda.

Wade never praised his ability to play OLB or his ability to rush the QB.

Yes, he did. He specifically mentioned Carp's ability to rush the QB when talking about them looking at him before last year's draft.

Selective memory?

It's a possibility that we're looking to draft an OLB only to have him as 4th on the OLB depth chart, but that doesn't appear likely.

Of course it doesn't appear likely, it doesn't support your agenda.

You're right, neither of us know what they're thinking. I've just read what they've been saying and doing and drawn my conclusions. If you disagree, that's fine. I'd actually rather have you disagree because that's typically a good indicator of being correct.

Yet I've whooped your kindergarten arse all over this forum in pretty much every debate we've ever had. You're just too ignorant to know it.

 

[theogt]

Wow, you managed to not refute a single thing I said. Congrats. I'll take that post as the white flag. You lose once again.

 

[Rack]

Wow, you managed to not refute a single thing I said. Congrats. I'll take that post as the white flag. You lose once again.

I guess you're too dumb to know when you've had your arse handed to you?



Still wondering how a LB that sometimes plays on the RIGHT side could be called a LOLB.


I think you may actually be more stubborn then Nors. That dude NEVER admitted when he was wrong. You're pretty much on par with that right now.

 

[superpunk]

I guess you're too dumb to know when you've had your arse handed to you?



Still wondering how a LB that sometimes plays on the RIGHT side could be called a LOLB.


I think you may actually be more stubborn then Nors. That dude NEVER admitted when he was wrong. You're pretty much on par with that right now.

What position did Ware play last year?

 

[theogt]

Still wondering how a LB that sometimes plays on the RIGHT side could be called a LOLB.

I'm not sure why you're wondering this. I guess you couldn't understand what I wrote even when I boiled it down to as simple terms as I could.

Don't worry, I didn't really expect you to understand it.

I think you may actually be more stubborn then Nors. That dude NEVER admitted when he was wrong. You're pretty much on par with that right now.

Of course, the same could be said about you.

 

[Rack]

What position did Ware play last year?

That would be WOLB.

I'm not sure why you're wondering this. I guess you couldn't understand what I wrote even when I boiled it down to as simple terms as I could.

Oh I understood it alright. I understand you're too stubborn to admit you're wrong.


Simple as that.


Anyway, you inadvertantly admitted you were wrong anyway by saying you PREFER to call it LOLB. So it's just your PREFERENCE despite the fact it's technically incorrect.


Hey, I can prefer to refer to a DE as a DT but that would be technically incorrect as well.