A Case for Greg Ellis.

[jterrell]

as an aside this will be submitted for nfldraftblitz.com though it hasn't been fully proofed yet....

I do not expect it to be popular. Then again I have always wanted to be a voice of reason more than I wanted to be popular.

As in most things I submit to NFLDB a ton of it is developed here in myriad threads and then tied together. This site is routinely excellent for sharpening arguments and keeping basic mental acuity at a high level.




A Case for Greg Ellis.

As a Cowboy fan one of the most annoying things I suffer through is what I term 'misperceptions'.

Fans of the team will look at things in such a particular way as to will them into reality whether at all factual or not.

The biggest case of this has been the career of Greg Ellis.

Ellis was drafted 8th overall in 1998.
He was selected over a controversial but jaw-droppingly talented Wide Receiver named Randy Moss. Since that fateful day Greg Ellis has never been worthy of the selection in many fans eyes… Not based on any real data or facts but just their perception. All clouded by the fact he isn’t Randy Moss. Randy Moss was drafted 21st…..

1998 Draft:

1 Peyton Manning Colts QB Tennessee key stat-League MVP, SB Winner.
2 Ryan Leaf Chargers QB Washington State key stat-Franchise destroyer
3 Andre Wadsworth Cardinals DE Florida State key stat-8 career sacks
4 Charles Woodson Raiders DB Michigan key stat-3 pro bowls
5 Curtis Enis Bears RB Penn State key stat- 1 weird zealot group joined, out of league.
6 Grant Wistrom Rams DE Nebraska key stat- 53 career sacks
7 Kyle Turley Saints T San Diego State key stat-1 Steroid test failed. 1 helmet tossed.
8 Greg Ellis Cowboys DE North Carolina key stat-0 Pro Bowls 56.5 career sacks 133 career starts
9 Fred Taylor Jaguars RB Florida key stat- 108 career starts 4.6 yards per carry avg for career.
10 Duane Starks Ravens DB Miami (FL) key stat-97 games played, 25 career interceptions
11 Tra Thomas Eagles T Florida State key stat- 2 pro bowls.
12 Keith Brooking Falcons LB Georgia Tech key stat-129 career starts avg of 81 tackles season
13 Takeo Spikes Bengals LB Auburn key stat-126 games played, avg 71.4 tackles pr season
14 Jason Peter Panthers DT Nebraska key stat- retired in 2001
15 Anthony Simmons Seahawks LB Clemson key stat-last played in 2004.
16 Kevin Dyson Oilers WR Utah key stat- 1 yard short of end zone. Out of football.
17 Brian Simmons Bengals LB North Carolina key stat- 56.4 tackles per season.
18 Robert Edwards Patriots RB Georgia key stat-serious injury from beach football
19 Vonnie Holliday Packers DT North Carolina key stat-129 games started 49.5 sacks.
20 Terry Fair Lions DB Tennessee key stat-out of the league since the 2002 NFL Season

Let’s look at that list again and determine who the Cowboys should have taken at 8th. Know full well that Randy Moss wasn’t on the Cowboys list at all. He had been purged from it because he was similar to Michael Irvin and the Cowboys were struggling with image issues. Bringing Moss to the Cowboys and shining the NFL’s hottest celebrity beams on him would have been too much in the opinion of the front office.

So in the context of that 1998 draft Greg Ellis looks like a heck of a value pick. He has the most sacks on the list. He also has been a Cowboys starter since day 1 and been their leading sack guy in each of his full seasons after his rookie year. He even lead the team in sacks last season at the time of his injury with young rush specialist Demarcus Ware on the team.

But maybe, just maybe, the 8th pick is generally a total stud….

Let’s look at 10 number 8 picks starting with 1996.

1996: Tim Biakabutuka
1997: James Farrior
1998: Greg Ellis
1999: David Boston
2000: Plaxico Burress
2001: David Terrell
2002: Roy Williams
2003: Jordan Gross
2004: DeAngelo Hall
2005: Antrel Rolle

Not a whole heck of a lot of studs there.

So why bring this up now? What’s the point?

Greg Ellis has been whining for three off-seasons about his current contract. He signed a seven year 21 million dollar extension in 2003. The deal he signed he claims was orchestrated by Bill Parcells convincing Jerry Jones not to give him a 10 million dollar signing bonus and Jerry asking Ellis to be a team player. Greg has made those comments publicly and no one in the organization; past or present, has denied them. One thing is clear. Greg Ellis is not winning the public perception battle. Fans do not care that the 2.5 million base salary he is paid this year will be woefully low for a starting pass rusher because it is more than they’ll make in 10 or maybe even 20 years. They just want him to shut up. That part is understandable. But just how fair is it?

If you look at this Cowboy team which player most closely resembles a New England Patriot? I’d argue Greg Ellis. He is completely on board with the team first program and has been amazingly solid if not spectacular for a number of years. Now he is screaming for more money. All things which are common in New England among veterans by the way. Greg Ellis has been helpful to new draftee and Ellis-replacement Anthony Spencer. How helpful? Spencer has already been to Greg Ellis’s house and Ellis sits behind Spencer is meetings offering advice during film sessions.

Terence Newman when interviewed recently said he could ‘taste’ his big payday coming. He was all smiles at the big contract he is looking at. Newman is a good player at CB. He will be 29 years old to start this season. When healthy he is a top flight CB. He hasn’t made a Pro Bowl but only because he isn’t a flashy interceptions guy with just 12 for his career. Ironically(again) I’d argue he is very similar to Greg Ellis in that he is amazingly solid at his primary tasks but lacks flash or the breakout stat season. Corner-mate Anthony Henry is no where near as good but he does have the double digit INT season to his credit and will play the ball far more aggressively than Newman who refuses to be beaten but does not gamble much at all. Ellis is much the same. He dominates his area by winning position first, holding his area against running lanes and pursues QBs on a path that pressures them consistently without exposing any holes to run through. It isn’t sexy. It isn’t Randy Moss.

So if Terence Newman holds out for a big contract will fans turn on him as they have Greg Ellis? I don’t think so. Will fans say this guy is 30 years old and wants a deal that will pay him 5 or more million when he is 35. Will they note his lack of INTs as some supposed weakness; noting not having 5 INTs in one season is somehow a concrete number that must be achieved to avoid being a scrub? Doubtful? Why… Because fans have no need to be consistent. They have no check against realism or fact. This is pure emotion baby and it’s driven by perception; misguided or not.

Does any of this suggest Greg Ellis should continue pressing his case in the media? No! But a recent meeting between his agent, James Williams, and Jerry Jones may well suggest that he has been effective in doing so.

I’d love to see Anthony Spencer supplant Greg Ellis in the starting lineup. I’d love to see Spencer and Ware both top 10 sacks this season. I’d love to be paid what Greg Ellis is so disgusted by. BUT, I can not rush the passer. I can not stop the run. I can not control what Jerry charges for seats or parking or beer. All I can control are my indulgent responses to whiny athletes. And I can try to be consistent and judge them versus their peers not myself.



Assorted quotes:::




Ellis…"I would like for him to make a move," Ellis said following the last of the organized team activities (OTA) Thursday. "Let me know and let [the media] know, 'Greg we do want you here.' With him saying, 'No we're not planning to sit down with Greg or his agent or anybody,' I think that pretty much sums it up."


Ellis…"For the way the NFL is structured today with these [higher] signing bonuses, the young guy has to get [playing time] because he's a first-rounder," Ellis said. "Jerry can't afford it and I don't blame him. I wouldn't sit [Spencer] on the bench either despite what the coaches are telling me."

Marcus Spears…"I know we need him around, that's all that I'm concerned with," Spears said. "Me and G are real close. I want him to be happy and I think whatever it takes to do that, he's proven himself. He's not a selfish guy, and I think they need to find some common ground."

Ellis’s Agent…"I would think [Jones] would be a fair man," said James Williams, Ellis' agent.
"If he doesn't want Greg to be a Cowboy, trade him or terminate the contract."

Jerry Jones… "We all want more money," Jones said.

Wade Phillips… "It's a situation between the GM and the player," Phillips said. "Usually things work out, especially with good people involved. Greg Ellis is one of the best guys I have been around."


Terence Newman…"I want to be in the upper echelon of the [defensive backs]," Newman said. "[Clements] was in the same position I was; one Pro Bowl, I think. Our stats are similar, he's played longer. So you do that math."
"The biggest goal I can say is being recognized as one of the top cornerbacks in the league," Newman said. "To do that I have to get to the Pro Bowl. So whichever comes first."
**note from Mac Engel of the Ft-Worth Star-Telegram…. Clements, 27, has played six NFL seasons and has 23 interceptions in 96 games.
Newman, 28, has played four NFL seasons and has 12 interceptions. He has yet to make a Pro Bowl.

 

[DallasEast]

Great article. I, for one, would like for Ellis to complain long and loud about his 'problem'. He has my full support to complain for days, weeks or years if he chooses to, but under one condition:

Complain to Jones directly and privately--away from the media. If and until then, he won't get a lick of support from me regarding his personal crusade. It makes no sense to whine when you still have other avenues to work out your problems.

Ellis is simply taking the 'reality tv' angle here and it's not even necessary. Go talk to Jones and if you don't receive the answer you want to hear, man up and feel blessed to have what you have. Because, quite frankly, all you have is much more than most ever dream of having.

/rant off

 

[Dhragon]

So if Terence Newman holds out for a big contract will fans turn on him as they have Greg Ellis? I don’t think so. Will fans say this guy is 30 years old and wants a deal that will pay him 5 or more million when he is 35. Will they note his lack of INTs as some supposed weakness; noting not having 5 INTs in one season is somehow a concrete number that must be achieved to avoid being a scrub? Doubtful? Why… Because fans have no need to be consistent. They have no check against realism or fact. This is pure emotion baby and it’s driven by perception; misguided or not.

I wouldn't complain because Newman would be trying to get a new contract at the end of his current one - he wouldn't be wanting to trash his current contract because it no longer suits him. Big difference IMO.

 

[Hostile]

Jerry Jones said that they tried to trade back into the first round so they could take Randy Moss and he wasn't able to swing the deal.

 

[Hostile]

I wouldn't complain because Newman would be trying to get a new contract at the end of his current one - he wouldn't be wanting to trash his current contract because it no longer suits him. Big difference IMO.

I totally agree.

 

[BouncingCheese]

I have to agree with you; great points.

Grant Winstrom only had 53 career sacks; but then again he was lauded for his relentless pursuit of the QB and his efforts in the run game...

Ellis is alot like Winstrom... but nobody picks on Winstrom. I guess that's because Winstrom never whined like a baby.

But Winstrom is more like Carriker.

Whatev.

 

[jterrell]

I wouldn't complain because Newman would be trying to get a new contract at the end of his current one - he wouldn't be wanting to trash his current contract because it no longer suits him. Big difference IMO.

His agent has already been to Valley Ranch discussing an extension.
He is looking to get his big signing bonus sooner rather than later.
TNew like Ellis doesn't really have time on his side so you'll see some discontent if he isn't extended by training camp next year IMHO.

 

[jterrell]

Jerry Jones said that they tried to trade back into the first round so they could take Randy Moss and he wasn't able to swing the deal.

True.

He just wasn't a consideration with the first pick. When he fell like Emmitt had Jerry wanted him. Jerry also tried to go up to 3 and get Wadsworth then up to get Wistrom who they had targeted.

The Cowboys would have drafted Vonnie Holliday had they traded down a bit. They were locked into a DE.

We got lucky to get Emmitt when the defensive guys Jimmy wanted were already taken.... sometimes you get lucky or unlucky based on what others do.

 

[BigDFan5]

Did you just compare Newman talking about getting a new contract at the end of his rookie deal, to Ellis whining about wanting a 3rd deal when there is still 3 years left on his current deal?



Also you bring up his draft status and "good guy" status as reasons to give him a new deal while leaving out the achilles tear and the fact that he does not produce like a top notch pass rusher

 

[Jarv]

Great article JT, I agree with it totally.

 

[burmafrd]

The past record of #8 picks is a total non issue. That does not matter.
What do you EXPECT from a #8 pick? THAT is the question. BOTTOM line is that Ellis has NOT given us what we expected from TOP 10 PICK.
So he is a bust in that respect. Now he has been a good player but has NEVER EVEN SNIFFED a Pro Bowl. Bringing Newman into it is a JOKE.
Newman is one of the top CBs in the NFL- a top 5 at least. Is Ellis? NO. NOT EVEN CLOSE.
GIven his production he was OVERPAID in his first contract. Things EVENED out in his second contract. So OVERALL he has been paid about right for what he has produced. He deserves NOTHING more then what he has gotten.

 

[BigDFan5]

I have to agree with you; great points.

Grant Winstrom only had 53 career sacks; but then again he was lauded for his relentless pursuit of the QB and his efforts in the run game...

At the time Ellis signed his new contract he had 27 sacks and a career high of 7.5 (average of a little over 5 sacks a year)

Ellis is alot like Winstrom... but nobody picks on Winstrom. I guess that's because Winstrom never whined like a baby.

But Winstrom is more like Carriker.

Wistom is not a Cowboy, and had played better at the point ellis signed his deal than Ellis had

 

[Big Dakota]

True.

He just wasn't a consideration with the first pick. When he fell like Emmitt had Jerry wanted him. Jerry also tried to go up to 3 and get Wadsworth then up to get Wistrom who they had targeted.

The Cowboys would have drafted Vonnie Holliday had they traded down a bit. They were locked into a DE.

We got lucky to get Emmitt when the defensive guys Jimmy wanted were already taken.... sometimes you get lucky or unlucky based on what others do.

And if i remember correctly, Jimmy would have taken James Francis had the Bengals been willing to trade with the Cowboys.

 

[burmafrd]

By the way. Pretty arrogant to consider yourself the voice of reason. Who appointed you?

 

[Zimmy Lives]

The past record of #8 picks is a total non issue. That does not matter.
What do you EXPECT from a #8 pick? THAT is the question. BOTTOM line is that Ellis has NOT given us what we expected from TOP 10 PICK.
So he is a bust in that respect. Now he has been a good player but has NEVER EVEN SNIFFED a Pro Bowl. Bringing Newman into it is a JOKE.
Newman is one of the top CBs in the NFL- a top 5 at least. Is Ellis? NO. NOT EVEN CLOSE.
GIven his production he was OVERPAID in his first contract. Things EVENED out in his second contract. So OVERALL he has been paid about right for what he has produced. He deserves NOTHING more then what he has gotten.

And let's not forget that Newman has never suffered a major injury while Ellis is still recovering from his second. The injury is the biggest difference.

 

[jterrell]

Did you just compare Newman talking about getting a new contract at the end of his rookie deal, to Ellis whining about wanting a 3rd deal when there is still 3 years left on his current deal?

The comparison is to demonstrate all of these guys want to make tons of money. And again Newman's agent has already been to VR to discuss an extension he isn't going to wait til his contract is up. My discussion was clear in that it is about the perception of different players all wanting to make tons of money. If we sign Newman to a big extension this off-season is anyone going to complain or call Newman greedy?

Also you bring up his draft status and "good guy" status as reasons to give him a new deal while leaving out the achilles tear and the fact that he does not produce like a top notch pass rusher

I didn't argue to give him a new deal nor did I mention his good guy status. I did say he was a team first guy who was helpful to Anthony Spencer. Wade Phillips and Marcus Spears called him a good guy but that was merely in quoted notes at the bottom.

 

[jterrell]

The past record of #8 picks is a total non issue. That does not matter.
What do you EXPECT from a #8 pick? THAT is the question. BOTTOM line is that Ellis has NOT given us what we expected from TOP 10 PICK.
So he is a bust in that respect. Now he has been a good player but has NEVER EVEN SNIFFED a Pro Bowl. Bringing Newman into it is a JOKE.
Newman is one of the top CBs in the NFL- a top 5 at least. Is Ellis? NO. NOT EVEN CLOSE.
GIven his production he was OVERPAID in his first contract. Things EVENED out in his second contract. So OVERALL he has been paid about right for what he has produced. He deserves NOTHING more then what he has gotten.

What was his first contract?

What is expected of a top 10 draft pick?

 

[sago1]

Actually unlike some on this board, I still like Greg Ellis and also believe that he has performed consistently well for this time the entire time he's been here. It's no accident that he's only one of 2 remaining players drafted by the Cowboys still on this team.

I've read claims by some that he's average at best, but who have the Cowboys drafted to help Ellis when he played DE? The likes of Ekuban and even worse. The Cowboys tried but with JJ running the show we have nothing but failure to show for it. Glover was the only player who helped but he's a DT and not a complement to Ellis at DE.

I believe Cowboy fans will say the same thing about DeMarcus Ware 7 or 8 years down the road if Ellis leaves and Spencer gets hurt unless we can add another OLB to complement him. Ware will get the breaks Ellis never got the chance for.

I feel for Ellis cause it's got to be tough watching so many teammates make so much more money & yet he's viewed as such a valuable player. I wonder how many of you would moan and groan if he abruptedly decided to retire (not going to happen) & either Ware or Spencer got hurt. We'd all hope Phillips 3-4 might some how be able to step it up and overcome the problem, but would anybody realisticly take that bet?

Having said all that, yes I'm tired of his whinining and he should shut up for a while and let his play (hope he healthy enough to come all the way back) speak for itself. A very successful season would really give him great leaverage with Jones. BTW: If Ware, Spencer & Ellis looking good in preseason, you better believe Phillips will ensure all 3 are on the field A LOT. You never rest a good pass rusher. You just slide him around a lot. Just like we doing with Ware.

 

[jterrell]

By the way. Pretty arrogant to consider yourself the voice of reason. Who appointed you?

I said 'I want to be' I believe.

 

[BigDFan5]

The comparison is to demonstrate all of these guys want to make tons of money. And again Newman's agent has already been to VR to discuss an extension he isn't going to wait til his contract is up. My discussion was clear in that it is about the perception of different players all wanting to make tons of money. If we sign Newman to a big extension this off-season is anyone going to complain or call Newman greedy?

Of course his agent is there discussing perimeters, they will be working out a deal with him next offseason.

We sign guys to new deals when they have 1 year left on their deal Example Witten, Roy etc.

Nobody has a problem paying players, they have problems paying players and then that same player crying over money just a couple years later when he has 3 years left on his deal. I mean come on Ellis signed his contract in Sept of 2003 and started whining in sept 2005 2 years after he got a new deal. Lots of fans will get turned off by that

I didn't argue to give him a new deal nor did I mention his good guy status. I did say he was a team first guy who was helpful to Anthony Spencer. Wade Phillips and Marcus Spears called him a good guy but that was merely in quoted notes at the bottom.

You cant sit on the fence man you either think he deserves a new deal or he doesnt, and from what I have seen of your posts It appears you think he does. Am I off on that