A Case for Greg Ellis.

burmafrd

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I think one reason Ellis has gotten so much slack over the years is that compared to Pitman, Carver and Ekubust he has shined. Does not mean that he was worth a top 10 pick.
 

Everlastingxxx

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Jterrell good post. What i don’t get is the hate towards Ellis. I mean the guy has given the team many good years, nothing he can say that would make me change my mind about him. Same with Emmitt Smith, Aikman, Irvin and other past Cowboys. I mean what some of these guys have done for the team i will always remember and appreciate.
 

Hostile

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jterrell;1525127 said:
The comparison is to demonstrate all of these guys want to make tons of money. And again Newman's agent has already been to VR to discuss an extension he isn't going to wait til his contract is up. My discussion was clear in that it is about the perception of different players all wanting to make tons of money. If we sign Newman to a big extension this off-season is anyone going to complain or call Newman greedy?
No, because he has waited until the compeltion of his rookie deal, has played at a very high level, has not been injured, has not complained in the media for 3 straight years in the off season, has never put money above team.

There was no firestorm surrounding the re-signing of Brady James like there has been for this. Why not? Because he was at the end of his deal, not in the middle of it, and we all are smart enough to realize that is the way it works. He also didn't complain about his role for 3 straight years of even one time.

No one bagged on Emmitt Smith for wanting a new deal in the middle of his rookie contract. Why not? Because he was a legitimate superstar in the making and we wanted him to be rewarded for that. Good guy or not Greg Ellis is not a superstar.

On top of this I don't remember any player wanting more money after a season ending injury. That's just ludicrous. Can you give me even one example of a guy who got more money after an injury while in the middle of a contract? Give me just one example of the thousands of players who have played this game and I will shut up about Ellis.
 

superpunk

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It's a well written article, but very poorly thought out, in terms of logical progression. You appear to have started out defending Ellis from the perception that he is an underachieving top 10 pick. That's debatable, but it's hardly relevent to his contract dispute today.

You then proceed to use some Terrence Newman red herring that I am still struggling to find relevancy for. To my knowledge, Newman is still on his base deal signed as a rookie. To my knowledge, Newman has never complained about needing more money, despite nearing the age where you're only getting one more contract.

Greg Ellis is an entirely different scenario, one where the player has already signed a new deal, one he and the team agreed was fair value at the time. And it definitely was, despite any moaning to the contrary. How has Ellis responded? Has he outperformed that deal? Has he even reached the incentives they placed within it? No. So where is the perceived slight? He's getting paid what he and the team considered fair value. The market changed. It's Greg's fault he signed such a long deal - no doubt necessitated by his injuries, and lack of production to that point. Nothing's changed. Neither should his contract.

You also intimate a double standard on what fan's stance might be if Newman holds out eventually, which is pointless to discuss or even refute. I sincerely doubt that Newman will sign his new deal, play two years, and then whine every year after that about needing mroe "commitment".

Interesting "points" (when they aren't fallacies) apart, but put together it just looks like a bunch of guesswork that comes together to make no point at all. Almost none of that is relevent to Ellis' current contract situation. What is? The fact that Ellis agreed to a deal, has not outperformed it, yet continues to whine every year - even after a year in which he had a serious injury.

Oh yeah - fans tire of that real quick.

At least the reasonable ones do.
 

Hostile

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Everlastingxxx;1525147 said:
Jterrell good post. What i don’t get is the hate towards Ellis. I mean the guy has given the team many good years, nothing he can say that would make me change my mind about him. Same with Emmitt Smith, Aikman, Irvin and other past Cowboys. I mean what some of these guys have done for the team i will always remember and appreciate.
It isn't hate. People need to stop hiding behind that sorry excuse.
 

burmafrd

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THIS is what I expect from a DE that you pick in the top 10:

Julius Peppers
Richard Seymour
Javon Kearse (when healthy)
Micheal Strahan

You expect a Pro Bowl player that makes a SERIOUS difference in a game.
 

jterrell

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BigDFan5;1525137 said:
Of course his agent is there discussing perimeters, they will be working out a deal with him next offseason.

We sign guys to new deals when they have 1 year left on their deal Example Witten, Roy etc.

Nobody has a problem paying players, they have problems paying players and then that same player crying over money just a couple years later when he has 3 years left on his deal. I mean come on Ellis signed his contract in Sept of 2003 and started whining in sept 2005 2 years after he got a new deal. Lots of fans will get turned off by that






You cant sit on the fence man you either think he deserves a new deal or he doesnt, and from what I have seen of your posts It appears you think he does. Am I off on that

I think getting a new deal or not should have little affect perception-wise on his accomplishments or contributions here up to this point which was the gist of this article and had nothing to do with whether or not he got his 'desired' money.

I think Jerry Jones has to weigh the decision carefully and determine if offering Ellis more money in the short term is a positive for the team.

An extension that offered a signing bonus and escalators would be fine by me. I'd definitely be willing to acknowledge he has outperformed his deal and his ability to play both DE and OLB. I would not offer him a big money deal but at the same time I don't feel shooing him away is good business either. Its not like you can't a cut a guy if he doesn't perform.
 

Big Dakota

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superpunk;1525155 said:
It's a well written article, but very poorly thought out, in terms of logical progression. You appear to have started out defending Ellis from the perception that he is an underachieving top 10 pick. That's debatable, but it's hardly relevent to his contract dispute today.

You then proceed to use some Terrence Newman red herring that I am still struggling to find relevancy for. To my knowledge, Newman is still on his base deal signed as a rookie. To my knowledge, Newman has never complained about needing more money, despite nearing the age where you're only getting one more contract.

Greg Ellis is an entirely different scenario, one where the player has already signed a new deal, one he and the team agreed was fair value at the time. And it definitely was, despite any moaning to the contrary. How has Ellis responded? Has he outperformed that deal? Has he even reached the incentives they placed within it? No. So where is the perceived slight? He's getting paid what he and the team considered fair value. The market changed. It's Greg's fault he signed such a long deal - no doubt necessitated by his injuries, and lack of production to that point. Nothing's changed. Neither should his contract.

You also intimate a double standard on what fan's stance might be if Newman holds out eventually, which is pointless to discuss or even refute. I sincerely doubt that Newman will sign his new deal, play two years, and then whine every year after that about needing mroe "commitment".

Interesting "points" (when they aren't fallacies) apart, but put together it just looks like a bunch of guesswork that comes together to make no point at all. Almost none of that is relevent to Ellis' current contract situation. What is? The fact that Ellis agreed to a deal, has not outperformed it, yet continues to whine every year - even after a year in which he had a serious injury.

Oh yeah - fans tire of that real quick.

At least the reasonable ones do.



Very Good Post!
 

burmafrd

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I always LIKED Greg untill he started crying. He was a very solid pro who did a good job for us. Not worth a top 10 pick, but compared to the other DE's we drafted he shined.
 

DallasEast

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Hostile;1525154 said:
On top of this I don't remember any player wanting more money after a season ending injury. That's just ludicrous. Can you give me even one example of a guy who got more money after an injury while in the middle of a contract? Give me just one example of the thousands of players who have played this game and I will shut up about Ellis.
That's the most frustrating thing for me. A linebacker in particular needs his 'wheels' to cover and pressure. Ellis torn his Achilles. That will directly affect his burst off the snap and his ability to laterally move and pursue. If he can't do these things, what good is it to compensate him for his inability to play to even his standards before he has healed?
 

Everlastingxxx

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Hostile;1525156 said:
It isn't hate. People need to stop hiding behind that sorry excuse.

Who’s hiding? And many of the comments made about Ellis are not filled with love. I can understand how many are upset but i think it has gone overboard. I don’t know, i don’t get that feeling that rises inside a person that makes them want to dislike Ellis. I think he has put in some good years and should be paid more or traded. I can see his perspective.
 

jterrell

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burmafrd;1525159 said:
THIS is what I expect from a DE that you pick in the top 10:

Julius Peppers
Richard Seymour
Javon Kearse (when healthy)
Micheal Strahan

You expect a Pro Bowl player that makes a SERIOUS difference in a game.

Seymour has 29.5 sacks in 6 years.... never more than 8.

Peppers was drafted 2nd not 8th.

Kearse hasn't had a double digit sack season since 2001. Ellis has out-sacked him each of the last 3 seasons.

Strahan is an unquestioned hall of famer.

So which player is what you truly expect of a top 10 pick?
A hall of fame player? A player who has never equaled Ellis in sacks? A player drafted 2nd overall and looks headed to the hall of fame or a guy who had a good burst out of the gate but has been outperformed by Ellis 3 consecutive years?


still waiting for reply as to the totails of his rookie contract that he did not live up to..
-
 

DallasEast

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Everlastingxxx;1525176 said:
Who’s hiding? And many of the comments made about Ellis are not filled with love. I can understand how many are upset but i think it has gone overboard. I don’t know, i don’t get that feeling that rises inside a person that makes them want to dislike Ellis. I think he has put in some good years and should be paid more or traded. I can see his perspective.
I see his perspective as one which should have been kept in private with Jerry Jones.
 

jterrell

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Hostile;1525154 said:
No, because he has waited until the compeltion of his rookie deal, has played at a very high level, has not been injured, has not complained in the media for 3 straight years in the off season, has never put money above team.

There was no firestorm surrounding the re-signing of Brady James like there has been for this. Why not? Because he was at the end of his deal, not in the middle of it, and we all are smart enough to realize that is the way it works. He also didn't complain about his role for 3 straight years of even one time.

No one bagged on Emmitt Smith for wanting a new deal in the middle of his rookie contract. Why not? Because he was a legitimate superstar in the making and we wanted him to be rewarded for that. Good guy or not Greg Ellis is not a superstar.

On top of this I don't remember any player wanting more money after a season ending injury. That's just ludicrous. Can you give me even one example of a guy who got more money after an injury while in the middle of a contract? Give me just one example of the thousands of players who have played this game and I will shut up about Ellis.

The other comparisons are debate-able but I'll skip to the last question.

Players generally are on big contracts and when hurt they get cut. They DO get new deals coming off of injury but for new teams not their own.

The fact is Greg Ellis is so cheap he wouldn't be cut even if he was supposedly out until mid-season. Truth is the team expects him ready day 1 of camp so his injury did nothing but hurt the team last year when it missed his pass rush as noted by every players questioned and every coach.

And I m not arguing at all in this article to give him more money I am arguing fans need a broader perspective by which to judge him.

Could Ellis not be cut this second without ever earning another cent from the Dallas Cowboys? If so then who exactly does the contract apply to? Just him or him and the team? What exactly is Greg Ellis guaranteed this season?
 

Vtwin

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burmafrd;1525144 said:
I think one reason Ellis has gotten so much slack over the years is that compared to Pitman, Carver and Ekubust he has shined. Does not mean that he was worth a top 10 pick.

I think one of the reasons why Ellis has not achieved bigger stats and reached the pro bowl is because he has had to play with the likes of these clowns you mention. It's pretty easy for the opposition to neutralize the one and only threat on the d-line.
If he had been drafted in the same spot by say...... the Patriots, Cowboys fans would be criticising JJ for letting him get away when we desperately needed help on the d-line and Ellis would have seen the pro bowl and the money.
 

jterrell

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DallasEast;1525187 said:
I see his perspective as one which should have been kept in private with Jerry Jones.

So now you decide who he can talk to and about what subject matter?

I am pretty sure you can skip all the articles about Ellis altogether including this thread. For all your posts here methinks you protesteth a bit too much.
 

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jterrell;1525192 said:
The other comparisons are debate-able but I'll skip to the last question.

Players generally are on big contracts and when hurt they get cut. They DO get new deals coming off of injury but for new teams not their own.

The fact is Greg Ellis is so cheap he wouldn't be cut even if he was supposedly out until mid-season. Truth is the team expects him ready day 1 of camp so his injury did nothing but hurt the team last year when it missed his pass rush as noted by every players questioned and every coach.

And I m not arguing at all in this article to give him more money I am arguing fans need a broader perspective by which to judge him.

Could Ellis not be cut this second without ever earning another cent from the Dallas Cowboys? If so then who exactly does the contract apply to? Just him or him and the team? What exactly is Greg Ellis guaranteed this season?
He's not going to be cut. Judging him by his previous tantrums, he's not going to hold out and he will play as well as he can. So, why whine to the media? Take the argument to Jones and deal with the consequences with the GM/owner only.
 

Big Dakota

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OK Greg, i see your side of things. Now shut your big fat yap and try and hit an incentive in this lifetime.
 
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