A Case for Greg Ellis.

[Vintage]

I knew someone would blame Zimmer eventually.

So how can Zimmer's scheme account for those two magical elusive sacks?

That's all.

Two.

Each and every year.

I agree.

Zimmer wasn't at fault for his notorious second half "fades......"

 

[Alexander]

I agree.

Zimmer wasn't at fault for his notorious second half "fades......"

If Abraham or Anderson notch double digits this year, I guess you can look at a Falcon LB or DT for reasons why.

 

[Vintage]

If Abraham or Anderson notch double digits this year, I guess you can look at a Falcon LB or DT for reasons why.

Yeah. Demorrio Williams will have freed them up for the sacks.

:laugh2:

 

[BigDFan5]

Before D. Ware lead the team in sacks in 2006 (he was ahead of Ware before he got injured also), Greg lead the team (or tied) in sacks for years.

He did this in mainly Zimmers read and react scheme. The one everyone is so happy to be rid of.

For those of you that think the scheme makes no difference, lets compare our sack totals this year to last year, after the season is done. heck, lets see how many Greg gets in this new scheme.

L. Glover was a double digit sack artist (I know, as a tackle, but still double digits) before he came here, never sniffed that total while he was here. Guess he just sucked while he played for us ???

You dont pay a player a new deal on how you think he may play in another system or another team. You pay them on what the actually produce

 

[BouncingCheese]

I knew someone would blame Zimmer eventually.

So how can Zimmer's scheme account for those two magical elusive sacks?

That's all.

Two.

Each and every year.

Alexander, I came to the party late...

What is the point of "agument"? That Ellis isn't a good player?

 

[Jarv]

Oh, and Greg Ellis spent 4 years playing alongside one of the best pass rushing DTs of our time.

That certainly helped him blow up.

Who are you talking about ? I don't recall any DT during the Ellis reign that produced any high total of sacks ?

Glover was a sack guy on other teams, but not here. Glover averaged less sacks a year here than at NO and St. Louis. Must be Ellis's fault...

:bang2:

 

[Hostile]

7 hours ago..

On top of this I don't remember any player wanting more money after a season ending injury. That's just ludicrous. Can you give me even one example of a guy who got more money after an injury while in the middle of a contract? Give me just one example of the thousands of players who have played this game and I will shut up about Ellis.

6 hours ago...

I'll tell you what JT, I will respond to your challenge when you respond to mine. Don't think I haven't noticed that you didn't respond.

Just to refresh your memory that challenge was and is...

Name me one player who in the middle of his contract, after a season ending injury, asked for and got a newer, better deal. I won't even try and pigeon hole you to one criteria like "1998," by all means take the entire NFL and its 80 year history with thousands of players, and give me an example. Just one.

Fair enough?

Changed the challenge a few minutes later, 6 hours ago...

This isn't a response at all.

First of all you have the qualifier in there of being cut. He didn't ask to get released until he found out they weren't warm to his idea of a new deal.

My criteria is not hard at all. Show me one player in NFL history who got a new deal in the middle of an existing contract after a major injury. Essentially that is what Greg Ellis is seeking and what fans here find ludicruous.

I'll tell you what JT, I will make you a wager. You pick any of the guys who supposedly "hate" Greg Ellis and you ask them this question. "If Greg Ellis had not been hurt and the 2nd half of 2006 had been as productive as the first half of 2006 for him, would you begrudge him wanting a new deal?"

By all means, find the "haters" ask them this question and ask them to post their response in this thread.

I seriously doubt you will find anyone who fits the stereotype you're trying to paint. Not even from the "wish we had taken Randy Moss guys" nor the "he's never had double digit sacks" guys. Know why? Because the fans here are a lot more rational than you're giving them credit for by calling them "haters," and no I don't necessarily mean you are calling them that. I am talking about the perception.

In the immortal words of Simon and Garfunkel, this is the sound of silence.

 

[jobberone]

Well Ellis has really fired up the crowd.

I guess I see both sides. And I'm not concerned with what happens that much. I mean outside of Ellis returning to action and contributing what he was doing last year.

I don't know what it is that Jerry stated he would do for Ellis nor do I know what Jerry expected Ellis to do. There is no way for me to know those details assuming there are any. Which is not a safe assumption to make or not make. It is what it is between those two and they will have to make their own brand of peace. Or not.

I don't like Jerry to not take care of a player who has done what was asked of him. Those who say Ellis could have done more are right. Those that say Ellis could have done more in a more aggressive scheme are right. I mean the aggressive scheme is really a no brainer. Isn't that what Wade is here for. I see no reason Ellis and all can't get two more sacks a year at least from the new system.

And there is merit to the fact that all the front seven do better individually and as a team when those around them play better. That doesn't necessarily translate into more sacks for one player in this case Ellis. Of course it doesn't mean Ellis won't do better with that more aggressive scheme and obviously more talented players around them.

I'd like to hear from those who are more excited by the new more aggressive schemes or are not excited by the fact we have at least two legit rushers in Ware and Ellis. And although there is no guarantee Spencer can do it I know I'm excited by what I hear about his quickness, strength and speed.

There is more that could be said on either side of the equation but lets get after them later as I'm gettin sleeply.

I will say we will be more successful rushing the passer this year and all those boys will prosper as should tht team.

More tomorrow with some comments on hate, thinking then feeling then acting esp with regards to emotions such as hate etc.


See you guys tomorrow with one caveat that we try hard t6 treat 6thers we33. cya t60arr6w.

 

[superpunk]

Who are you talking about ? I don't recall any DT during the Ellis reign that produced any high total of sacks ?

Glover was a sack guy on other teams, but not here. Glover averaged less sacks a year here than at NO and St. Louis. Must be Ellis's fault...

Glover was about on par here with his production elsewhere. He had a couple years that were absolute anomaly's in New Orleans. Other than that, he's been a 5-7 sack guy. He averaged 5.4 with us, and upped that all the way to 5.5 with St. Louis.

Clearly the system was holding him back. I mean, he only had two years here that were better than his first in St. Louis.

Doomsday erroneously suggested that pass rushers need a good supporting cast (or at least one person across from them, as suggested initially) to produce. You apparently didn't understand the sarcasm in my Glover post, as Ellis saw no significant increase in production, despite having Glover alongside him, one of the best DT pass rushers of our time.

But that was all Zimmer's fault, and he deserves more money for giving us a hometown discount that didn't actually exist.

No. Ellis simply is what he is. An average pass rusher who is getting paid what he deserves - what he agreed upon with Jerry Jones - what he has yet to outperform, or even reach incentives in. This pity-party is nonsense.

 

[superpunk]

I don't like Jerry to not take care of a player who has done what was asked of him.

How is Jerry not taking care of him?

 

[Doomsday101]

Glover was about on par here with his production elsewhere. He had a couple years that were absolute anomaly's in New Orleans. Other than that, he's been a 5-7 sack guy. He averaged 5.4 with us, and upped that all the way to 5.5 with St. Louis.

Clearly the system was holding him back. I mean, he only had two years here that were better than his first in St. Louis.

Doomsday erroneously suggested that pass rushers need a good supporting cast (or at least one person across from them, as suggested initially) to produce. You apparently didn't understand the sarcasm in my Glover post, as Ellis saw no significant increase in production, despite having Glover alongside him, one of the best DT pass rushers of our time.

But that was all Zimmer's fault, and he deserves more money for giving us a hometown discount that didn't actually exist.

No. Ellis simply is what he is. An average pass rusher who is getting paid what he deserves - what he agreed upon with Jerry Jones - what he has yet to outperform, or even reach incentives in. This pity-party is nonsense.

I indicated that help along the lines helps a player. Ellis may never be a guy who gets 15 or 20 sacks season but with pressure coming from other position along the line his sack totals should go up. If you don't think having other players with talent around a player does not contribute to better numbers then so be it but I stick by what I say!

 

[superpunk]

I indicated that help along the lines helps a player. Ellis may never be a guy who gets 15 or 20 sacks season but with pressure coming from other position along the line his sack totals should go up. If you don't think having other players with talent around a player does not contribute to better numbers then so be it but I stick by what I say!

You were making excuses for Ellis not performing better, suggesting that he didn't produce more because he hasn't had "jack alongside him."

We've shown you that good pass rushers produce, no matter who's beside them. If Ellis was that good, he'd produce no matter who was beside him. Yet, there was no significant improvement in his numbers, even when the team brought in one of the best pass-rushing DTs of our time.

By all means, continue to stick by what you say. It won't make you any less wrong, or your stance less erroneous, but at least you'll be consistently stubborn in the face of overwhelming evidence.

 

[Vintage]

I indicated that help along the lines helps a player. Ellis may never be a guy who gets 15 or 20 sacks season but with pressure coming from other position along the line his sack totals should go up. If you don't think having other players with talent around a player does not contribute to better numbers then so be it but I stick by what I say!

And I gave plenty of examples.

Hell, even a rookie DE turned into an OLB in Kamerion Wimbley managed double digit sacks WITH NO HELP.

 

[superpunk]

And I gave plenty of examples.

Hell, even a rookie DE turned into an OLB in Kamerion Wimbley managed double digit sacks WITH NO HELP.

I think Wimbley was a LB at Florida State.

 

[Doomsday101]

You were making excuses for Ellis not performing better, suggesting that he didn't produce more because he hasn't had "jack alongside him."

We've shown you that good pass rushers produce, no matter who's beside them. If Ellis was that good, he'd produce no matter who was beside him. Yet, there was no significant improvement in his numbers, even when the team brought in one of the best pass-rushing DTs of our time.

By all means, continue to stick by what you say. It won't make you any less wrong, or your stance less erroneous, but at least you'll be consistently stubborn in the face of overwhelming evidence.

I'm not making excuses for anyone, that is how your taking it as you go on your rip Ellis march. What I indicated is Ellis I feel would have produced much better numbers in his career had he played along with someone else who could produce along the front line.

 

[Vintage]

I think Wimbley was a LB at Florida State.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/profiles/2006/wimbley_kamerion

Says he was a DE.

 

[superpunk]

I'm not making excuses for anyone, that is how your taking it as you go on your rip Ellis march. What I indicated is Ellis I feel would have produced much better numbers in his career had he played along with someone else who could produce along the front line.

So, if something had gone differently - Ellis would have been better.

Here are a few definitions for excuse:

2.to offer an apology for; seek to remove the blame of: He excused his absence by saying that he was ill. 3.to serve as an apology or justification for; justify:

You've attempted to remove blame from Greg Ellis, and place it on his supporting cast for his failure to produce more. That's an excuse, if we're still using English as a primary language.

Not only is it an excuse, but an erroneous one.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/profiles/2006/wimbley_kamerion

Says he was a DE.

oops.

 

[Doomsday101]

And I gave plenty of examples.

Hell, even a rookie DE turned into an OLB in Kamerion Wimbley managed double digit sacks WITH NO HELP.

Willie McGinest was part of last years Brown D and while the number for him were down he has a reputation for making plays and OC account for him. If you want to believe football is a one man show then go for it I really could careless about your view point as you too go on the Ellis march.

 

[Doomsday101]

So, if something had gone differently - Ellis would have been better.

Here are a few definitions for excuse:

2.to offer an apology for; seek to remove the blame of: He excused his absence by saying that he was ill. 3.to serve as an apology or justification for; justify:

You've attempted to remove blame from Greg Ellis, and place it on his supporting cast for his failure to produce more. That's an excuse, if we're still using English as a primary language.

Not only is it an excuse, but an erroneous one.



oops.

Plain and simple if Ellis was playing with more talent along the line in his career with the Cowboys I think his numbers improve. Why the heck do you think the Cowboys have been going Defense year after year? They are not looking to dump Ellis. I'm not making excuses for Ellis or anyone else that is how you are taking it. As far as I'm concerned if Ellis does not want to be in Dallas then release him.

 

[Vintage]

Willie McGinest was part of last years Brown D and while the number for him were down he has a reputation for making plays and OC account for him. If you want to believe football is a one man show then go for it I really could careless about your view point as you too go on the Ellis march.

Right. McGinest still commands optimum attention from opposing OC's.

Which is why his sack total was low. Wait. Demarcus Ware commands optimum attention from opposing OCs, and he managed double digit sacks...

As for not caring about my view point, then why are you in this thread posting back and forth. Whats the point of being here at CBZ anyway, if you aren't going to take opposing view points into consideration? Unless you are just looking for "rah-rah, Go Dallas" and "I agree!11!1oneleven!11!1" type of responses?


And the "Ellis march?" *** are you talking about? I have continued to state we should keep Ellis. And that we need to. He and Ware are our only two proven pass rushers at this point. And since our pass rush has sucked, there is no point in giving up on one of ours until we have proof we have someone else who can legitimately fill that role.

Superpunk has echoed something along those lines as well.

Just because I don't think Ellis is great doesn't mean I want to rid ourselves of him.