A Case for Greg Ellis.

[superpunk]

In your opinion which does not mean jack

It's not an opinion. It's a fact. Good pass-rushers do not need help to produce. I just showed you several. Can you provide any defensive ends who only produced once they were paired with a talented counterpart to draw attention? Likely not.

So no, it's not my opinion. In actuality, you are wrong.

 

[Vintage]

Kamerion Wimbley, as a rookie, had 11 sacks last year.

Who helped him?

http://www.nfl.com/teams/stats/CLE

The great Simon Fraser? Him and all of his 4.5 sacks?


If Ware and Wimbley don't work out as examples, let me know. I can continue searching.

 

[zeromaster]

And I m not arguing at all in this article to give him more money I am arguing fans need a broader perspective by which to judge him.

It's a little dificult for fans to have a broader perspective when players are asking for more money, given that the great majority of them will never see an equivalent amount of income in their lifetime, and especially when said player is in the middle of a contract term. Western society build its heroes up to impossible heights, and laughs diabolically as they fall.

Just another perspective for you...

 

[Vintage]

Jason Taylor had 13.5 sacks last year.

David Bowens chipped in with 5.5.


Taylor didn't have much help either. He produced.

 

[Vintage]

Cory Redding had 8 sacks (which for a DT, is pretty good).

His help came from the monstrous 5 sack total of DE James Hall.

 

[Vintage]

Leonard Little had 12 sacks last year.

No help came, except for La'Roi Glover's 5 sacks. Little didn't get much help and he produced.

 

[Doomsday101]

Other than Ellis, who has Ware ever had?

He produces.

When Ellis went down, what did Ware do? Ware finished the season with 5.5 sacks in 4 games. Who did he have to draw attention from? The great Marcus Spears, Chris Canty, et al?

And Ware ended up with 11.5 not exactly earth shattering numbers and a reason why yet again Dallas went out and brought in yet another pass rusher because Phillips at least understands that you can't have just 1 pass rusher and expect any type of consistent pressure on the QB.

 

[Hostile]

Everyone hates something or someone at some point. It is a common emotion with different levels. You want to make it black or white and i don’t agree it is. I hate waking up in the mornings is different than i hate child molestors. Anyways, i hate dealines but they are calling.

Sorry, not with people.

I hate Mondays is an opinion. I hate waking up early is an opinion. I hate deadlines is an opinion.

I hate Greg Ellis is not an opinion. It isn't an insult. It isn't dislike. Nor should it ever be synonymous with those less acid things.

Hate of a person or group of persons is a very real and even dangerous emotion. Accusing someone of it is wrong unless they confess that is their real and true feelings.

All I am saying is don't make "hate" a non impactful thing. Think about that long and hard Exxx. If someone tells you they hate you, are you insulted or a little bit worried about what they might do?

 

[Stash]

And Ware ended up with 11.5 not exactly earth shattering numbers and a reason why yet again Dallas went out and brought in yet another pass rusher because Phillips at least understands that you can't have just 1 pass rusher and expect any type of consistent pressure on the QB.

Good enough for the Pro Bowl, huh?

Those would certainly be 'earth-shattering' if you're Greg Ellis - a guy who's never reached double digit sacks.

That was a reach - and a bad one.

 

[Vintage]

And Ware ended up with 11.5 not exactly earth shattering numbers and a reason why yet again Dallas went out and brought in yet another pass rusher because Phillips at least understands that you can't have just 1 pass rusher and expect any type of consistent pressure on the QB.

So now its about a team applying consistant pressure?

This was your original quote

In fairness to Ellis who else has provided any pass rush opposite him? Ellis has not had the luxury of having any other true pass rusher to work with.

I went out and found example where this didn't happen. Leonard Little, Jason Taylor, Demarcus Ware, Kamerion Wimbley, Cory Redding, Aaron Kampmann, etc.

All of those players produced even when the help around them wasn't all that good.

But Ellis didn't. Or more to the point, he did in the first half of the season and then would coast the rest of the way.

 

[superpunk]

And Ware ended up with 11.5 not exactly earth shattering numbers and a reason why yet again Dallas went out and brought in yet another pass rusher because Phillips at least understands that you can't have just 1 pass rusher and expect any type of consistent pressure on the QB.

Dance, argument, dance!

 

[Doomsday101]

Good enough for the Pro Bowl, huh?

Those would certainly be 'earth-shattering' if you're Greg Ellis - a guy who's never reached double digit sacks.

That was a reach - and a bad one.

Ellis played in the 4-3. I love having Ware and look for big things from him over his career but at DE if you the sole pass rusher then any OC worth a damn can take you out of the game.

 

[InmanRoshi]

What All Pro was Strahan playing across from him when he broke the record with 22.5 sacks? Frank Ferrara or Kenny Holmes?

 

[BouncingCheese]

Leonard Little had 12 sacks last year.

No help came, except for La'Roi Glover's 5 sacks. Little didn't get much help and he produced.

Then again LL never gets any help along the line... neither does he recieve the credit he deserves...

Good point

 

[Doomsday101]

Dance, argument, dance!

Dancing? I don't think so. Good to see you live up to your name Punk

 

[Vintage]

And Ware ended up with 11.5 not exactly earth shattering numbers and a reason why yet again Dallas went out and brought in yet another pass rusher because Phillips at least understands that you can't have just 1 pass rusher and expect any type of consistent pressure on the QB.

Now its about applying consistant pressure?

This was your original quote:

In fairness to Ellis who else has provided any pass rush opposite him? Ellis has not had the luxury of having any other true pass rusher to work with.

Kamerion Wimbley, Demarcus Ware, Leonard Little, Aaron Kampmann, Jason Taylor, Derrick Burgess, Cory Redding have all produced with little to no help elsewhere.

Greg Ellis hasn't. And in the case of all of the DE/OLBs I listed, all of them have had seasons of over 10 sacks. Ellis hasn't. And in the case of Ware, Ware for sure faces worse help than Greg Ellis (since Ware gets the "benefit of Ellis" versus Ellis getting the "benefit of Ware.")

 

[Big Dakota]

And Ware ended up with 11.5 not exactly earth shattering numbers and a reason why yet again Dallas went out and brought in yet another pass rusher because Phillips at least understands that you can't have just 1 pass rusher and expect any type of consistent pressure on the QB.

71 tkls and 11.5 sacks from a second year guy? Very nice year! Ellis's inability to stay healthy and get after the QB like a real all pro does, is the reason we drafted another pass rusher.

 

[Stash]

Ellis played in the 4-3. I love having Ware and look for big things from him over his career but at DE if you the sole pass rusher then any OC worth a damn can take you out of the game.

Tell that to guys like Leonard Little, Michael Strahan, Julius Peppers, or the late, great Reggie White.

They somehow managed to do what Greg Ellis couldn't.

And if you'd take nhotice, you've been given plenty of other examples as well.

 

[Vintage]

Ellis played in the 4-3. I love having Ware and look for big things from him over his career but at DE if you the sole pass rusher then any OC worth a damn can take you out of the game.

You mean DE as in nearly exclusively rushing the QB, thus getting more opportunites to compile sacks as opposed to covering, say WR's/TE's down the field when teams motion someone to your side?

oh.

 

[Alexander]

I disagree that pass rusher do not need others to help them out and for most of Ellis career he has not had jack around him to help provide a consistent pass rush.

You are indeed very wrong.

Case in point. Can you name the DE who played opposite Simeon Rice when he notched 16.5 sacks in 1999? The fearsome Andre Wadsworth, who posted two traps all season.

Kyle VandenBosch two seasons ago. Scary Bo Schobel was on the opposite side.

All that has been asked is that he achieve the magic ten sack plateau. That's all he had to do. He has never done it. No matter how many excuses you make or how many times you claim his poor supporting cast had a role, he just had to close the deal. He did not. And that is all that counts.

And I can all but guarantee you he missed at least two-three sacks a season because he either had poor technique or simply blew it, as he did in the famous Patrick Watkins deep play last year with Donovan McNabb.