About that bastidge Jerry hiring an OC...

[silverbear]

I see no reason to cite such instances, given that your argument is completely MEANINGLESS...

Dude, just admit it. It isnt that you "see no reason to cite such instances", its that you CAN'T. If you could you would.

No, I wouldn't, because your argument is STUPID...

Basically, what you seem to be saying is:

It's wrong to not allow a head coach to pick his own staff-- unless the coach you force on him is really, really good...

That's garbage... that's no argument at all; either it's wrong to not allow a head coach to choose his own staff, or it isn't... ain't no middle ground, no matter how furiously you tapdance to try to distract us from the fundamental weakness of your argument...

And for sure, I'm not about to let you try to corner me into accepting your parameters for this argument... mine are clearly laid out, and are quite logical, so you're gonna have to debate me on that level...

Except you CAN'T offer me any good debate on that level, can you??

 

[Dodger12]

Again, that makes NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL... Moore was still "forced" on the head coach, he wasn't able to pick his own coordinator...

And that, I believe, was the crux of the argument-- that's it's wrong to "force" an incoming head coach to accept assistants not of his own choosing... clearly, if that IS the argument, whether or not that assistant is a holdover from the old regime doesn't make any difference...

That weak copout is just you refusing to address the glaring inconsistency in your specious argument...

Silverbear, sometimes I think you just like to get a rise out of people. When Parcells was rumored to be talking with Jerry and this board, as well as others, were being flooded with reports of Jerry's jet being sighted at a New jersey airport, tell me you weren't grinning from ear to ear and praying that Jerry would pull the trigger?

Did you consider Parcells a quality head coacing cantidate at the time? Maybe even the best, a HC with HOF credentials. So why did Parcells have Jerry put it in writing that BP had control of hiring and firing his assistants? You can spin it any way you want. It is important and a good HC knows it. This is not a slight on Garrett or any other good assistant that a staff may have and wish to retain. But good coaches know that perception is king and his players need to know who the boss is. I think Gailey, Campo and even Switzer would agree that their jobs were made more difficult by players bypassing the HC and going straight to the owner.

 

[Dodger12]

If I'm that head coach, I'm gonna remind the players that I'm the boss, and if they like their jobs, they'd best recognize that fact...
At my job, the boss' authority rests mostly on my job security... it isn't likely any different in the NFL... even ol' coach-killer TO knows that he'd best not try any of his crap, or it will be his last season in Dallas...

Which is my typically long-winded way of saying I'm not particularly concerned that the new head coach will be viewed as a figurehead who's just keeping the seat warm for Garrett... a good head coach can deal with that kind of crapola...

You're correct and you obviously point out the importance of that view by players. But how are you going to remind the players that you're the boss when someone else is pulling the trigger and chosing your (trusted) assistants?

 

[silverbear]

You're correct and you obviously point out the importance of that view by players. But how are you going to remind the players that you're the boss when someone else is pulling the trigger and chosing your (trusted) assistants?

You cut somebody... first yahoo tries to give you some 'tude...

Problem solved...

 

[VA Cowboy]

You cut somebody... first yahoo tries to give you some 'tude...

Problem solved...

That'd be hard to do if someone else is pulling the trigger. You're assuming the HC will have the full autonomy to make that decision.

 

[silverbear]

Silverbear, sometimes I think you just like to get a rise out of people.

Oh terrific, now EVERYBODY knows... LOL...

Mostly this time around, I'm just sick of the knee jerk Jerry bashing... almost immediately, we started hearing about how Jerry was gonna grab all the power back, even before he'd done ANYTHING...

When Parcells was rumored to be talking with Jerry and this board, as well as others, were being flooded with reports of Jerry's jet being sighted at a New jersey airport, tell me you weren't grinning from ear to ear and praying that Jerry would pull the trigger?

Yup... don't know what importance that has to the subject at hand, though...

Did you consider Parcells a quality head coacing cantidate at the time? Maybe even the best, a HC with HOF credentials. So why did Parcells have Jerry put it in writing that BP had control of hiring and firing his assistants?

Oh, that's easy-- because he's an old school, dinosaur type of a coach whose ego has always told him that to succeed, he had to be in TOTAL control... and of course, he had all the leverage, so he could get away with it...

The problem is, these days that's a dying breed, and as Jeff Fisher noted, and I proved at some length in assorted threads in here these days, nowadays the NFL is moving away from doing things that way...

You can spin it any way you want. It is important and a good HC knows it. This is not a slight on Garrett or any other good assistant that a staff may have and wish to retain. But good coaches know that perception is king and his players need to know who the boss is. I think Gailey, Campo and even Switzer would agree that their jobs were made more difficult by players bypassing the HC and going straight to the owner.

Y'know, you can indeed spin this however you want, but there's one fundamental fact that renders all this rather a silly debate-- if Norv Turner is the next head coach of the Cowboys, as seems increasingly likely with each passing hour, he won't have ANY problem at all with Jason Garrett being on board... indeed, he's liable to be shickled titless...

He tried to hire Jason his own self 3 years ago...

 

[silverbear]

That'd be hard to do if someone else is pulling the trigger. You're assuming the HC will have the full autonomy to make that decision.

Unless it's one of the studs, you can bet that Jerry will be on board with sending that kind of a message to the team, if only because he would understand in that situation that it's a necessary step for the coach to assert his authority, which as y'all have noted IS rather important if you wish to be a successful coach...

Anyway, yeah, I think Jerry's head coach will have a lot more autonomy than you're assuming... I'd say it will fall a bit short of the leash he gave Parcells, but won't be nearly as tight as the leash he put on Switzer, Gailey and Campo... I think it's completely ridiculous to think Jerry would even WANT nothing more than a puppet at this point... like him or dislike him, the guy ain't stupid, and he's done the puppet thing, and it didn't work...

Yeah, he's got an ego, but that ego can only be adequately fed by WINNING, especially by hoisting another Lombardi Trophy... I think he wants that more than he wants "credit" (both because of that ego, and because of the profit margin), and I'm quite certain that he understands that the way he was doing things not only didn't work, it will never work...

I think deep down, you and most of the other Jerry bashers right now know this, but you don't really care, because what you want more than anything is for him to not have ANY control of his team... you want him to be one of those owners who disappears from the football field once the serious business begins, and is seen only in shots of the owner's box during the game...

Well, sorry 'bout that, but that ain't EVER gonna happen, 'cause that ain't Jerry... so you're setting yourself up for disappointment by demanding standards that he doesn't even WANT to meet...

And all this wailing and gnashing of teeth because the Cowboys went out and hired a bright, promising young coach... one who might indeed someday be the leader of a resurrected Dallas Cowboys, not too many years in the future...

Bet if that happens, you guys are gonna feel real foolish about your Chicken Little act right now, won't you??

 

[Dodger12]

Oh terrific, now EVERYBODY knows... LOL...

Oh, that's easy-- because he's an old school, dinosaur type of a coach whose ego has always told him that to succeed, he had to be in TOTAL control... and of course, he had all the leverage, so he could get away with it...

Or maybe BP and the rest of the NFL was aware of Jones' M.O. and the way business was handled within the organization.

The problem is, these days that's a dying breed, and as Jeff Fisher noted, and I proved at some length in assorted threads in here these days, nowadays the NFL is moving away from doing things that way... [/QUOTE]

You can quote Fisher, but that's a claim of do as I say, not as I do. I'm curious, when Fisher took over, was he told who his assistants would be or did he hire them. Lets take it a step further. Had the Titans allowed us permission to talk with Fisher, do you think Jerry would still be hiring the assistants before the coach? Doubt it and I'd bet you a coach in demand, like Fisher, would never accept those terms.

And how is this that the NFL is getting away from doing things this way when the best you could "prove" in your assorted threads was what 2 teams did (Steelers and Dolphins). Another poster (I believe) brought up the Colts and keeping their OC intact at the time Dungy was hired. At most, by your own "proof", that's 3 out of 32 teams but you grasp those three so tight in your defense of Jerry that your fingers are starting to bleed. So I'll give you a clue, go to the Steelers web site or any Pittsburg paper, and see if LeBeau was retained prior to or after the HC was hired. You'll see that Tomlin retained him, not the Rooneys. The Rooneys were comfortable in letting LeBeau interview for a HC position, rather than retain him prior to the arrival of the HC. Even after Lebaue didn't get the job(s), he still wasn't retained until after Tomlin arrived and it was Tomlin who announced his staff and kept his DC in place.

Now, since is the changing ways of the NFL and it's happeining more and more, can you or someone else let me know what NFL team went and interviewed people, outside the organization, for the OC position prior to the HC's? I can't think of any but that doesn't mean there may not be a couple. Either way, it's not the norm, as you'd have people belive and it's certainly not "proof".

Your problem is that the minute someone criticizes Jerry, you label them as bashers. I'm not bashing Jerry. He's the best owner uint he NFL, hands down. I question some of his moves as GM. Living through Switzer, Gailey, Campo, QC, 3 consecutive 5 and 11 seasons, blown drafts, Larry Lacewell, etc. have made me age beyond my years and prone to suspicion. I may be jumping the gun, but when I see an arsonist light a match, I'm thinking he's going to start a fire; I don't have to wait for the inferno.

Y'know, you can indeed spin this however you want, but there's one fundamental fact that renders all this rather a silly debate-- if Norv Turner is the next head coach of the Cowboys, as seems increasingly likely with each passing hour, he won't have ANY problem at all with Jason Garrett being on board... indeed, he's liable to be shickled titless...[/QUOTE]

He tried to hire Jason his own self 3 years ago...[/QUOTE]

You're right, but if Norv is the next HC, then Jerry has reverted to his old ways and hired a grade B headcoach that he's comfortable with (ie: a yes man). Would you still need further proof that he's reverted back to the Jerry of old?

 

[silverbear]

Or maybe BP and the rest of the NFL was aware of Jones' M.O. and the way business was handled within the organization.

C'mon, Parcells has ALWAYS been a control freak, and I suspect you know it... it was years ago that he made the infamous quote about how if you're gonna ask me to make the dinner, you ought to let me buy the groceries...

The problem is, these days that's a dying breed, and as Jeff Fisher noted, and I proved at some length in assorted threads in here these days, nowadays the NFL is moving away from doing things that way...

You can quote Fisher, but that's a claim of do as I say, not as I do.

Hey, he wasn't ADVOCATING doing things that way, he was merely pointing out that's the way things are being done more and more often these days... I suspect he's not personally a big fan of that approach...

I'm curious, when Fisher took over, was he told who his assistants would be or did he hire them.

I dunno, but it was 12 years back, or something like that, and I can't find anything on the internet that answers your question...

Then again, maybe the phrase "12 years back" answers your question; that was then, this is now, which was Fisher's point...

Lets take it a step further. Had the Titans allowed us permission to talk with Fisher, do you think Jerry would still be hiring the assistants before the coach? Doubt it and I'd bet you a coach in demand, like Fisher, would never accept those terms.

And how is this that the NFL is getting away from doing things this way when the best you could "prove" in your assorted threads was what 2 teams did (Steelers and Dolphins).

And Cards... and the Faiders...

And those are the ONLY jobs that were open this year... so it's 100 per cent of the new hires this year who did not get to hand pick their entire staff...

Sounds like a trend to me...

So I'll give you a clue, go to the Steelers web site or any Pittsburg paper, and see if LeBeau was retained prior to or after the HC was hired. You'll see that Tomlin retained him, not the Rooneys.

And the Rooneys had absolutely nothing to do with that decision... I'm quite sure that a new head coach whose background was on the defensive side of the ball, who presumably would focus most of his attention on that side of the ball, was just THRILLED to hire a strong, established defensive coordinator, to whom he'd have to relinquish control of the defense...

The Rooneys were comfortable in letting LeBeau interview for a HC position,

You say that as if they had any choice in the matter... but LeBeau didn't leave, did he?? Sounds like a man who knew he had job security right where he is...

Now, since is the changing ways of the NFL and it's happeining more and more, can you or someone else let me know what NFL team went and interviewed people, outside the organization, for the OC position prior to the HC's?

Who cares if the coach comes from outside the organization or not?? Either the new head coach got to pick him, or he didn't...

Your problem is that the minute someone criticizes Jerry, you label them as bashers.

Not all the critics of Jerry are witless bashers, but way too many of them are... I refer in particular to those screaming at the top of their lungs "this is the old Jerry come back to haunt us, he's just gonna hire a puppet"...

Those critics are fools, and calling them Jerry bashers is being kind...

I'm not bashing Jerry.

In fairness, your criticisms are a good deal more reasonable and less impassioned than a lot of the other critics...

I may be jumping the gun, but when I see an arsonist light a match, I'm thinking he's going to start a fire; I don't have to wait for the inferno.

I find that rhetoric ridiculous... sorry, gotta call 'em like I see 'em...

Y'know, you can indeed spin this however you want, but there's one fundamental fact that renders all this rather a silly debate-- if Norv Turner is the next head coach of the Cowboys, as seems increasingly likely with each passing hour, he won't have ANY problem at all with Jason Garrett being on board... indeed, he's liable to be shickled titless...

He tried to hire Jason his own self 3 years ago...

You're right, but if Norv is the next HC, then Jerry has reverted to his old ways and hired a grade B headcoach that he's comfortable with (ie: a yes man). Would you still need further proof that he's reverted back to the Jerry of old?

Oh, so Jerry is forbidden from ever hiring anybody with Cowboys roots again?? I call that a bit of a knee-jerk reaction...

The fact is, most folks around the league have assumed that Norv would be a head coach again some day... he is widely considered to be one of the leading contenders for a head coaching job somewhere... so why shouldn't Jerry look at him??

Especially since he might just fit one of the team's needs at the moment, which is somebody to get the best out of Tony Romo... he's really pretty good at that kind of thing...

 

[Sitting Bull]

Before hiring a head coach... some of you have your panties ALL in a wad over that... well, I'm here to tell you that your position is asnine...

You see, there are two frontrunners for the head coach job right now, and both of them seem to be completely on board with having Jason in place...

The first is Wade Phillips, who had this to say about working with Jason:



http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79601

The other top candidate is Norv Turner, and he tried to hire Jason as an assistant coach for the Raiders back in 2004... clearly, he thinks that Garrett has something to offer...

So, it doesn't look like either of the frontrunners for the head coach job has the same reservations you Jerry haters do about the hiring of Jason Garrett...

Of course, that won't stop any of you Jerry haters from p*ssing and moaning about the whole deal...

I agree, Silverbear. I made a similar thread before reading yours. All I've heard is negative media spin all week and my first glance at the board looked pretty negative too. I believe you should only complain if you've got a better option to offer up- I've yet to hear one that would justify NOT locking up Garrett when he was available...

 

[silverbear]

That's the point...he didn't get turned down because he didn't pursue any...

Try to keep up...

Which ones were available??

 

[silverbear]

I agree, Silverbear. I made a similar thread before reading yours. All I've heard is negative media spin all week and my first glance at the board looked pretty negative too. I believe you should only complain if you've got a better option to offer up- I've yet to hear one that would justify NOT locking up Garrett when he was available...

It's like any other big move the Boys make, there will be some who hate it, some who love it, and some who can't figure out what to make of it... generally speaking, the ones who hate a move are the first ones to sound off, and sound off the loudest...

By now, I'm kinda used to it, LOL...

 

[Dodger12]

Silverbear, good thoughts on your part even if we don't completely agree. A couple of years down the road, if not sooner, people are going to critique Jerry's methods and decisions in the weeks after BP called it quits. As usual, he'll either be praised as a savy owner or vilified. I'm hoping the ealier.............

 

[Bach]

*Bump*

 

[dargonking999]

Failure for you Bach